Weird/odd/unusually chambered guns

[tark]

I distinctly remember seeing .38 Super written on the side of it. It was the first time I'd ever heard of that cartridge

The Astra 400 was never chambered in, or intended to use 38 super ammo. It WAS chambered in, and could accept 38ACP ammo. Shooting Supers in a 400, if it is in good shape, will work in a dire emergency, but it is a very bad idea. The supers will beat the gun to death in short order.

If you have ever seen a 400 that was marked "38 Super" the markings were not applied at the factory.

 

[Ironicaintit]

My oddest odd duck is a Steyr in 8x56R. Kicks like a damn mule hopped up on Mountain Dew

 

[JWF III]

The 1 I’d love to own is 1 of the 3 Lugers produced in .45 ACP for American Trials.

Then there was a 1 of, double barrel bolt action, that I saw at the NRA museum in Virginia. I don’t remember the chambering. But it did have double triggers. You could shoot twice and one racking of the bolt reloaded both barrels.

Then again there was this 1911 I saw at a local dealer. I wanted it for the oddity, but couldn’t bring myself to spend the money. IIRC, it was built by CZ. It was also double barreled. And with each trigger squeeze it fired 2 .45 ACP slugs simultaneously.

Wyman

 

[Jim Watson]

The 1 I’d love to own is 1 of the 3 Lugers produced in .45 ACP for American Trials.

The conventional wisdom is that there were only two, one used up in destructive testing. In Luger collecting circles, it is thought there were as many as five or six.

If you really want one, Lugerman has a base model at a stone bargain price.

The P2020 Model Luger 45 will have following configuration: (45 ACP Caliber , Electro Polish Surface, No Grip Safety, Salt Blue Finish, Number on the Frame only, Swiss Style Checkering on Grips)
LIMITED NUMBER of 25 UNITS of the P2020 Models are OFFERED as bare bones price option:
Pistol with Two magazines and Loading tool for $3950
Package Offer of Model P2020 45 Luger with 3 magazines , Loading tool, Display Box and Holster will be available at $4950

If you want something nice,
The P2020 Classic Model will be available at $8395 (Hand Polish, Grip Safety, Rust Blue Finish, Commercial style numbering on all Parts, Full Hand Checkering Walnut Grips)

Which is still a good deal when you think that the price of the entry level is about like a Wilson 1911 and the Classic is on the low side of what Yost, Burton, and Chen are charging for their 1911s.

 

[usaral63]

Haven't seen my odd ball hundred plus yr old Remington model 14 in .32 R mentioned........can be a job just finding components, I'm down to cast from a custom mold,. & thank the powers that be for Graf's brass.

 

[Mgderf]

I have a Winchester model 1885 Low-Wall that started life as a .22 short.
Sometime long before I got it someone rebarreled it with a Winchester model 52 barrel in .22 lr.

I also have a Bersa Thunder in .32acp.
Several people have told me that Bersa didn't make the Thunder in .32acp, then I show one to them...

 

[12Bravo20]

The Astra 400 was never chambered in, or intended to use 38 super ammo. It WAS chambered in, and could accept 38ACP ammo. Shooting Supers in a 400, if it is in good shape, will work in a dire emergency, but it is a very bad idea. The supers will beat the gun to death in short order.

If you have ever seen a 400 that was marked "38 Super" the markings were not applied at the factory.

This would be correct. And remember that most, if not all, Spanish pistols were actually chambered for 9mm Largo (9x23) which has a smaller rim diameter than 38 ACP and 38 Super. I have seen some Spanish pistols marked 38 ACP but that is not correct either, unless someone opened up the breech face to fit the larger rim of the 38ACP case.

Now 38 Super Comp brass and 9mm Largo brass can be interchanged but I still would not use full power 38 Super loads in a pistol originally chambered for 9mm Largo. For those looking for 9mm Largo brass, you can use Starline 38 Super Comp brass. Starline makes their 9mm Largo and 38 Super Comp brass to the exact same dimensions.

Star did make a bolt action carbine chambered in 9mm Largo but, the carbine ammo was loaded hotter than the pistol ammo. I would not suggest shooting 9mm Largo ammo loaded for the Destroyer Carbine in a 9mm Largo pistol.

 

[tark]

Rim Dia. on the Largo case is .395" The Super is .405. Other than that, the two are nearly identical. With a mill file, and a hand drill, the Super's rim can be turned down in a matter of seconds. An hour or so can turn a box of Super cases into Largo cases.

 

[12Bravo20]

Rim Dia. on the Largo case is .395" The Super is .405. Other than that, the two are nearly identical. With a mill file, and a hand drill, the Super's rim can be turned down in a matter of seconds. An hour or so can turn a box of Super cases into Largo cases.

Why bother filing down case rims especially if you reload. Again Starline makes both of their 38 Super Comp and 9mm Largo brass to the exact same dimensions. The only difference between the two is what caliber is stamped on the end of the case. I have used both 38 Super Comp and 9mm Largo cases from Starline and the dimensions all measure the same with my micrometers. IF anything the Starline 9mm Largo brass is short when compared to actual specs. And I have used both interchangeably in Star pistols chambered in 9mm Largo and 9mm 1911s with a 38 Super barrel installed.

Plus the actual specs for 9mm Largo rim diameter is 0.392" while the rim diameter of 38 Super Comp is 0.386" and SAMMI specs for 38 Super rim diameter is 0.406" Starline 38 Super Comp and 9mm Largo brass all measure 0.386" for the rim diameter.

And I will never suggest anyone shooting any type of 38 Super load in any Spanish made pistol chambered for 9mm Largo.

 

[tark]

And I will never suggest anyone shooting any type of 38 Super load in any Spanish made pistol chambered for 9mm Largo.

The Star Super A Is Chambered in 9mm Largo. The same gun is chambered in 9X19 And it is rated safe to shoot any 9mm load, including +P. Those are loaded to higher pressures than Supers. 38,500 PSI for the 9 +P and 36,5000 PSI for the Supers. Those are SAAMI pressures. I've been shooting Supers in my Star Super A for years. Ten minutes and a small file was needed to open up the breech face to accept the Super's slightly larger rim.

Shooting standard Super factory ammo in a Super A is perfectly safe, assuming the gun is in good shape.

 

[12Bravo20]

I know it is only schematics. But officially the Star A and Star Super A were always chambered for 9mm Largo from the factory. It was the Star B and Super B that were chambered in 9x19.

And yes a Star Model A will hold up to 38 Super pressures. It is definitely not recommended to shoot 38 Super in a Star A since it will cause excess wear and premature damage. But quite a few of the Astra and Llama pistols chambered in 9mm Largo will NOT stand up to 38 Super or 9x19 chamber pressures. 9mm Largo was originally 24,000 to 26,000 PSI and the early pistols will not hold up to a steady use of 38 Super ammo.

I know a lot of people have shot 38 Super out of old Spanish pistols chambered in 9mm Largo without issues BUT that does NOT mean it is safe to do so. I have seen quite a few Astra and a small number of Llama 9mm Largo with catastrophic failures, cracked slides, etc from someone shooting 38 Super in them. Just because something can be done does NOT mean that it should be done.

To each their own. I personally like having all my fingers attached and works so I will not use 38 Super in any pistol chambered in 9mm Largo nor will I ever suggest anyone to do that. And if one runs across the 9mm Largo ammo loaded for the Star Destroyer Carbine, DO NOT shoot that in any pistol chambered for 9mm Largo. The ammo loaded specifically for the Destroyer Carbine is a lot hotter with higher chamber pressures.

PS: there is also the 9x23 Winchester which is the same size/length as 9mm Largo. But the 9x23 Win is a magnum round and should NEVER be fired in any pistol chambers in 9mm Largo. The 9x23 Win has a chamber pressure of 55,000 PSI.

 

[12Bravo20]

Here is a good read on the Star A Series pistols for those that are interested. http://star-firearms.com/firearms/guns/a/index.shtml

That website is one of the best as far as information on the different Star pistols goes.

Form that link.

Pistols marked 9 mm / 38 or any similar variation, are designed to fire .38 ACP and 9 mm Largo ammunition, but NEVER .38 Super. Read more detail on ammunition for older pistols.

 

[tark]

I know it is only schematics. But officially the Star A and Star Super A were always chambered for 9mm Largo from the factory. It was the Star B and Super B that were chambered in 9x19.

Quite correct, but the only difference between the Super A and B, was the chambering and the caliber stamp.

And yes a Star Model A will hold up to 38 Super pressures. But quite a few of the Astra and Llama pistols chambered in 9mm Largo will NOT stand up to 38 Super or 9x19 chamber pressures. 9mm Largo was originally 24,000 to 26,000 PSI and the early pistols will not hold up to a steady use of 38 Super ammo.

Also true, but the only gun I said it was safe to fire Super ammo in was the Super A. I did say that it could be done in an Astra 400, IN AN EMERGENCY. And I did say it was a bad idea. I know all about cracked Astra 400 slides. This one came back at me a couple of years ago. I was shooting CCI Largo ammo in it. My glasses saved my left eye.

To each their own. I personally like having all my fingers attached and works so I will not use 38 Super in any pistol chambered in 9mm Largo nor will I ever suggest anyone to do that. And if one runs across the 9mm Largo ammo loaded for the Star Destroyer Carbine, DO NOT shoot that in any pistol chambered for 9mm Largo. The ammo loaded specifically for the Destroyer Carbine is a lot hotter with higher chamber pressures.

Well, too bad because the Super A and the .38 super make an excellent combination. I agree that the rest of the Largo chambered Spanish pistols should stay away from Supers.

PS: there is also the 9x23 Winchester which is the same size/length as 9mm Largo. But the 9x23 Win is a magnum round and should NEVER be fired in any pistol chambers in 9mm Largo. The 9x23 Win has a chamber pressure of 55,000 PSI.

Yes, correct. We know that, or at least I hope we all do.

 

[12Bravo20]

It is still not recommended to shoot 38 Super ammo in a Star Super A even if it will handle it. The extra pressure will cause parts to wear and or break quicker.


Again, you do you. I'll keep loading my ammo to 9mm Largo specs for safety reasons. I also use the same load in my 38 Super 1911 so I don't have to worry about getting ammo mixed up between my 1911 and Super A.

 

[tark]

It is still not recommended to shoot 38 Super ammo in a Star Super A even if it will handle it. The extra pressure will cause parts to wear and or break quicker.

The Super B is rated safe for any 9mm ammo including +P which is loaded to higher pressures than factory Super ammo. The Super A is the exact same gun, just chambered and marked differently. Shooting supers in it will not result in premature wear and/or parts breakage.

But.... I'll do me and you do you and we'll all gather at the river... And I'll buy you a beer.

 

[12Bravo20]

And I am done arguing over this since it is a well known fact that one should not shoot 38 Super out of any pistol chambered for 9mm Largo.

Again just because you can do something does not mean that you should.

Have a good day and do not bother quoting anymore of my posts.

 

[tark]

OK, I won't quote anymore of your posts. I'll just ask you the source of this "well known fact." Where has it been written and by whom? I have provided to you logical and reasonable ( and truthful ) arguments regarding the safety of shooting Supers in a Star Super A. I have also stated that, in my opinion, that pistol is the only Spanish made gun capable of doing this . I'm still waiting for a reasonable rebuttal to those arguments. One that is based in more than "what you have heard," or "everybody knows," or "it's a well known fact."

 

[12Bravo20]

My final post on this subject and then I am done. Here are some links for you to read.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/safe-to-shoot-38-super-in-star-modelo-super.605389/

https://www.go2gbo.com/threads/9mm-largo-38-super.203339/

I will post this link and quote for a second time

http://www.star-firearms.com/firearms/guns/a/index.shtml

Pistols marked 9 mm / 38 or any similar variation, are designed to fire .38 ACP and 9 mm Largo ammunition, but NEVER .38 Super. Read more detail on ammunition for older pistols.

And another link and quotes from that same website, which happens to be one of the best and most accurate sights for information on all Star pistols.

http://www.star-firearms.com/info/index.shtml

Older weapons should not be used with maximum loads. Additionally, some weapons will fit and fire cartridges that are expressly dangerous. One of the more common ones is the ".38" marked on the slides of guns usually before 1930 or so. The .38 on the slide refers to .38 ACP and not the more modern and common .38 Super.

Guns are all proofed with very high power loads, often 20% over the max safe pressure. This doesn't cause them to blow up due to the way metallurgy works. Firing a few rounds and having your gun survive is not a demonstration that it is safe. The gun could become damaged or actually blow up if you continue using incorrect cartridges, later on.

Remember that these are often very old guns, so don't read too much into re-stamping either. Some early Stars, at least the 1922 models for the Guardia, were originally marked "9m/m", and later a ".38" was added under this. The .38 mark is clearly different, and may have been added much later for commercial use, but doesn't indicate proofing for modern loads.

The Hornady manual says it better than I can: "The 38 ACP became obsolete in 1929 when Colt introduced the more powerful 38 Super Automatic, an improved version of the .38 ACP loaded to much higher pressures. The cartridges are identical in appearance, but the Super version is dangerous if fired in handguns designed for the original cartridge... Under no circumstances should 38 Super factory ammo or top equivalent reloads be fired in weapons chambered for the older 38 ACP."

I consider this matter finished since I did provide links that proves that it is not recommended nor safe to shoot 38 Super in pistols chambered in 9mm Largo.

 

[tark]

Well, your first two links were nothing more than opinions on gun forums. Opinions that may or may not be right.

On the Star pistol link you sent, read the second paragraph under the picture of the Super A. Especially the part that says "per the importer this indicates that they are able to safely chamber and fire 38 super ammunition."

Oh! really?

BTW my gun has that marking.

You get the last word, if you care to do so. I'm pretty sure the mods are gonna shut down this thread anyway.

 

[wally]

I don't think anything can beat the strangeness of the "reverse bottleneck" chamber of some of the first black powder muzzle loading handguns. The narrow powder chamber was supposed to improve burning of the inconsistent powders of the day when the larger diameter ball was seated on top.

 

[jlmwrite]

I have a Ruger New Model Blackhawk in 30 carbine. It makes a fun companion to my M1 carbines, and is remarkably tame.