well guys i worked up a load using 4f goex in my 1851 navy 36 caliber

[rodwha]

This discussion has got me wondering as to the best powder to use in my Pieta .44 cal snubby revolver. I use Swiss 3f in my other bp revolvers. Any ideas?

Quite frankly I think 3F Swiss or Olde Eynsford is the way to go, as well as Triple 7.

I won’t defy manufacturer’s warnings and recommend 4F, but it does burn quicker making it more likely to combust more completely.

What’s the barrel length? Some time back I had a discussion with someone about a snubby they had made and tested and he felt 3.5” was the shortest to get complete combustion and used a sheet to verify this. However I feel that small amounts of unburned powder being expelled from the barrel would likely be consumed before it hit the ground.

 

[tbob38]

Quite frankly I think 3F Swiss or Olde Eynsford is the way to go, as well as Triple 7.

I won’t defy manufacturer’s warnings and recommend 4F, but it does burn quicker making it more likely to combust more completely.

What’s the barrel length? Some time back I had a discussion with someone about a snubby they had made and tested and he felt 3.5” was the shortest to get complete combustion and used a sheet to verify this. However I feel that small amounts of unburned powder being expelled from the barrel would likely be consumed before it hit the ground.

Barrel is right at 3 inches.

 

[rodwha]

Barrel is right at 3 inches.

What is the current load you use?

Maybe you should try the sheet trick to see if you find unburned powder.

Have you chronographed your load?

 

[tbob38]

What is the current load you use?

Maybe you should try the sheet trick to see if you find unburned powder.

Have you chronographed your load?

Hi Rod. I haven't shot it yet. It is so pretty and well fitted, I've been putting off shooting it. When I do, I have 3f powders in Graf, Goex, Olde Eynesford, and Swiss to play with. (Also 777 and Pyrodex which I won't bother with) And will have to get out the Chrono. Weather has finally cooled enough that I can tolerate the heat. It is a wonderful concept gun that never existed in history as far as I know, but am concerned about the velocity dropoff with that short barrel.

 

[rodwha]

Hi Rod. I haven't shot it yet. It is so pretty and well fitted, I've been putting off shooting it. When I do, I have 3f powders in Graf, Goex, Olde Eynesford, and Swiss to play with. (Also 777 and Pyrodex which I won't bother with) And will have to get out the Chrono. Weather has finally cooled enough that I can tolerate the heat. It is a wonderful concept gun that never existed in history as far as I know, but am concerned about the velocity dropoff with that short barrel.

Whether or not the NMA was cut down is unclear to me, but the Colts certainly were. Stands to reason the NMA and others were as well, though not common.

Please do report your findings once you test that pistol of yours!

 

[rodinal220]

The 1st edition (1975 copyright) of the Lyman Black Powder Handbook has loading data for G-O = Gearhart-Owen 4F Powder. Listed load data was for .31, .36, .44 and .45(ROA) cap and ball revolvers.

 

[rodwha]

The 1st edition (1975 copyright) of the Lyman Black Powder Handbook has loading data for G-O = Gearhart-Owen 4F Powder. Listed load data was for .31, .36, .44 and .45(ROA) cap and ball revolvers.

Mind posting the pressures of the max loads comparing the 4F loads to anything more energetic in 3F? Pyrodex P sometimes shows higher velocities than standard Goex and the like (though often times it doesn’t as well).

 

[rodinal220]

No problem, I will list a few examples: All will be MAXIMUM charge listed by Lyman.

Page 70 for a .31 5 3/4" revolver (Baby Dragoon replica) states that with a .319 round ball weighing 50 grains over 13.0gr (max charge) G-O FFFg gave 697fps and with C&H powder 570fps. Remington #12 caps used. No pressure data listed.

Page 71 with same revolver but with G-O FFFFg 13.0gr max charge gave 795fps and with C&H FFFFg 749fps. Remington #12 caps used. No pressure data listed.

Page 72 with a Lyman 1851 Navy in .36 cal 7 1/2" with a .375 round ball 81.0gr, Remington #11 caps, *29.0gr G-O FFFg gave 1097fps and 9,440 pressure (LUP). G-O FFFFg *27.5gr gave 1090fps and 9,660 pressure (LUP).

*Maximum powder charge---All data from special pressure revolver.


Page 74 .36 7 1/2" (looks like a 1861 Colt Navy replica) revolver C&H FFFFg .375 round ball 81.0gr with Remington #11 caps. *27.5gr(MAX) 1002fps and 8800 pressure(LUP). No FFFg data given for this one.

150gr Lyman #37583 conical bullet. C&H FFFg *15.0gr 601fps and 6400 pressure (LUP). With C&H FFFFg *15.0gr 758fps and 10,600 pressure (LUP).

*Maximum powder charge---All data from special pressure revolver.​

There are more examples listed in Lymans book. I suggest finding a copy, plenty floating around(at least 6 printings) . Read all the data and decide for yourself. Too much to list.


The 1st edition (1975 copyright) of the Lyman Black Powder Handbook

 

[drobs]

No problem, I will list a few examples: All will be MAXIMUM charge listed by Lyman.

Page 70 for a .31 5 3/4" revolver (Baby Dragoon replica) states that with a .319 round ball weighing 50 grains over 13.0gr (max charge) G-O FFFg gave 697fps and with C&H powder 570fps. Remington #12 caps used. No pressure data listed.

Page 71 with same revolver but with G-O FFFFg 13.0gr max charge gave 795fps and with C&H FFFFg 749fps. Remington #12 caps used. No pressure data listed.

Page 72 with a Lyman 1851 Navy in .36 cal 7 1/2" with a .375 round ball 81.0gr, Remington #11 caps, *29.0gr G-O FFFg gave 1097fps and 9,440 pressure (LUP). G-O FFFFg *27.5gr gave 1090fps and 9,660 pressure (LUP).

*Maximum powder charge---All data from special pressure revolver.


Page 74 .36 7 1/2" (looks like a 1861 Colt Navy replica) revolver C&H FFFFg .375 round ball 81.0gr with Remington #11 caps. No FFFg data given with a round ball for this one only 150gr conical. *27.5gr(MAX) 1002fps and 8800 pressure(LUP).

150gr Lyman #37583 conical bullet. C&H FFFg *15.0gr 601fps and 6400 pressure (LUP). With C&H FFFFg *15.0gr 758fps and 10,600 pressure (LUP).

*Maximum powder charge---All data from special pressure revolver.​

There are more examples listed in Lymans book. I suggest finding a copy, plenty floating around(at least 6 printings) . Read all the data and decide for yourself. Too much to list.


The 1st edition (1975 copyright) of the Lyman Black Powder Handbook

Can you post up the details of the 44 cal 4f loading?

 

[WestKentucky]

You’re gonna die if you do this...












;-)

Btw midland... you really need a chrony. They’re not terrible expensive and your method of listening to the report, and feeling the recoil is frankly not much removed from witchcraft...

No, he needs one of those fancy powder tester contraptions.

 

[midland man]

yep and i would like to see what 30grs of goex 4f in a 1851 navy with a lubed felt wad under the ball as i shot this load with excellent results!

 

[Eyrie G. Dogg]

I watched a video (citation unimportant) where some guys got a squib in an 1860 using 15 grains. That's not enough powder for a .44 no matter how much filler you use.

 

[rodwha]

No problem, I will list a few examples: All will be MAXIMUM charge listed by Lyman.

Page 70 for a .31 5 3/4" revolver (Baby Dragoon replica) states that with a .319 round ball weighing 50 grains over 13.0gr (max charge) G-O FFFg gave 697fps and with C&H powder 570fps. Remington #12 caps used. No pressure data listed.

Page 71 with same revolver but with G-O FFFFg 13.0gr max charge gave 795fps and with C&H FFFFg 749fps. Remington #12 caps used. No pressure data listed.

Page 72 with a Lyman 1851 Navy in .36 cal 7 1/2" with a .375 round ball 81.0gr, Remington #11 caps, *29.0gr G-O FFFg gave 1097fps and 9,440 pressure (LUP). G-O FFFFg *27.5gr gave 1090fps and 9,660 pressure (LUP).

*Maximum powder charge---All data from special pressure revolver.


Page 74 .36 7 1/2" (looks like a 1861 Colt Navy replica) revolver C&H FFFFg .375 round ball 81.0gr with Remington #11 caps. No FFFg data given with a round ball for this one only 150gr conical. *27.5gr(MAX) 1002fps and 8800 pressure(LUP).

150gr Lyman #37583 conical bullet. C&H FFFg *15.0gr 601fps and 6400 pressure (LUP). With C&H FFFFg *15.0gr 758fps and 10,600 pressure (LUP).

*Maximum powder charge---All data from special pressure revolver.​

There are more examples listed in Lymans book. I suggest finding a copy, plenty floating around(at least 6 printings) . Read all the data and decide for yourself. Too much to list.


The 1st edition (1975 copyright) of the Lyman Black Powder Handbook

I have their 2nd edition which packs all 4F loads. I’d certainly love to find a 1st edition.

Don’t have much time tonight so I’ll comment some more tomorrow.

 

[rodwha]

I watched a video (citation unimportant) where some guys got a squib in an 1860 using 15 grains. That's not enough powder for a .44 no matter how much filler you use.

Very surprised when less than 5 grns seems to dislodge a dry balled large caliber rifle often enough.

 

[tbob38]

I have their 2nd edition which packs all 4F loads. I’d certainly love to find a 1st edition.

Don’t have much time tonight so I’ll comment some more tomorrow.

I'd like to have one too. So I just ordered one from Abe books.

 

[Stormson]

Very surprised when less than 5 grns seems to dislodge a dry balled large caliber rifle often enough.

I wouldnt trust it... Even in a clean bore. Try it after 4-5 cylinders I bet ya a 6pack of good beer that youll be pounding it outa the barrel... Shrugs.. JMHO, but I wouldnt wanna rely on it. Internet info or not, Id suggest checking the barrel each and every time before firing another round. Of course that goes without saying for ANY squib..

 

[rodwha]

I wouldnt trust it... Even in a clean bore. Try it after 4-5 cylinders I bet ya a 6pack of good beer that youll be pounding it outa the barrel... Shrugs.. JMHO, but I wouldnt wanna rely on it. Internet info or not, Id suggest checking the barrel each and every time before firing another round. Of course that goes without saying for ANY squib..

I’d trust it only because it seems to work. Thankfully I’ve not dry balled a load and had to do so so I can’t so one way or the other.

As for a revolver with several cylinders shot mine would be just fine as I use Gatofeo’s #1 lube which keeps the fouling easy to deal with so I doubt it would be an issue. Maybe not exactly like a clean bore but nothing hard to deal with for sure, unlike my rifle using grape seed oil on the patches, which requires some swabbing every 3-5 shots.

 

[rodinal220]

Page 75.
Test gun: Lyman 1860 Army .44cal 8" barrel. .451 round ball 138gr. Remington #11 caps.
G-O FFFg *37.0 MAX charge 1032fps and 7,940 pressure (LUP)
C&H FFFg *37.0 MAX charge 852fps and 5.360 pressure (LUP)

Page 76.
G-O FFFFg .451 round ball 138gr. Remington #12 caps. *37.0gr MAX charge 960fps and 7,420 pressure (LUP)
C&H FFFFg .451 round ball 138gr. Remington #11 caps. *37.0 MAX charge 943fps and 6,820 pressure (LUP)

*Maximum Powder Charge---All data from special pressure revolver.


Now the same revolver with a more moderate/average powder charge and using round ball .451 138 gr:

Page 75. G-O FFFg. Remington #11 caps. 25.0gr 805fps and 5,780 pressure (LUP)
Page 76. G-O FFFFg. Remington #12 caps. 25.0gr 868fps and 6,080 pressure (LUP)

Source: The 1st edition (1975 copyright) of the Lyman Black Powder Handbook

 

[rodwha]

No problem, I will list a few examples: All will be MAXIMUM charge listed by Lyman.

Page 70 for a .31 5 3/4" revolver (Baby Dragoon replica) states that with a .319 round ball weighing 50 grains over 13.0gr (max charge) G-O FFFg gave 697fps and with C&H powder 570fps. Remington #12 caps used. No pressure data listed.

Page 71 with same revolver but with G-O FFFFg 13.0gr max charge gave 795fps and with C&H FFFFg 749fps. Remington #12 caps used. No pressure data listed.

Page 72 with a Lyman 1851 Navy in .36 cal 7 1/2" with a .375 round ball 81.0gr, Remington #11 caps, *29.0gr G-O FFFg gave 1097fps and 9,440 pressure (LUP). G-O FFFFg *27.5gr gave 1090fps and 9,660 pressure (LUP).

*Maximum powder charge---All data from special pressure revolver.


Page 74 .36 7 1/2" (looks like a 1861 Colt Navy replica) revolver C&H FFFFg .375 round ball 81.0gr with Remington #11 caps. No FFFg data given with a round ball for this one only 150gr conical. *27.5gr(MAX) 1002fps and 8800 pressure(LUP).

150gr Lyman #37583 conical bullet. C&H FFFg *15.0gr 601fps and 6400 pressure (LUP). With C&H FFFFg *15.0gr 758fps and 10,600 pressure (LUP).

*Maximum powder charge---All data from special pressure revolver.​

There are more examples listed in Lymans book. I suggest finding a copy, plenty floating around(at least 6 printings) . Read all the data and decide for yourself. Too much to list.


The 1st edition (1975 copyright) of the Lyman Black Powder Handbook

I’m a little surprised that the ‘51 going from 3F to 4F with that small reduction of powder only produced a little more pressure. But then we see the significant difference the bullet made in the other .36 cal using the same powder charge. I must admit I’m baffled by the huge difference 3 to 4F made there, and why the pressure was significantly lower despite the bullet with the 3F loading vs a ball.

Another thing I notice is comparing the results you posted to the screenshot of the 4F load of 37 grns in an 1860 Army with a ball that only produced 7,420 (LUP).

My understanding is the max pressures for these are around 12,000 (CUP) but I’m at a loss for how these convert or compare with some saying you can’t truly convert them properly.

 

[rodinal220]

Yes, unfortunately Lyman only had LUP when they did their testing 43+ years ago. You can read up on LUP/CUP/PSI. But most folks feel proper LUP in lower pressure rounds is reliable data; If you stay within known sane reloading data. I have read that PSI is the best way to test peak pressures. Me personally, if I was using 4F, would be to stick to the starting to mid-range data in the LYMAN book. I know that powder like SWISS is more energetic than a comparable granulation GOEX. The max *37.0gr charge with GOEX may be ok, but with something like SWISS or substitutes like 777 may be too hot, and IMHO I wouldn't push the boundaries, use the starting to mid range (normal) loads. I don't use substitutes like 777 and I know its hot and more for the in-line guns.

PYRODEX is ok,I still have a few bottles(and original cardboard can!!) and I feel its "a little" hotter than GOEX. I load 577-450MH, and Pyrodex RS definitely causes more case expansion than GOEX 1F, I do not use it for that application.

 

[swathdiver]

Those 1970s era black powders were awfully weak compared with Hazard's and what we have available to us now.

 

[Mizar]

...but I’m at a loss for how these convert or compare with some saying you can’t truly convert them properly.

My understanding is that one cannot really (and should not try to) convert them. On one hand, the CUP/LUP method of pressure testing is not so precise when compared to transducers and on the other, and it's the more important one, not knowing the precise location of the testing unit is worse than a shot in the dark. Unless we have a concrete data that Lyman placed their CUP/LUP apparatus on the exact same spot on the test barrel as today's SAAMI requirements for piezo-transducers, we cannot even speculate safely.

 

[J-Bar]

Yesterday I shot a 5 stage cowboy action match with my Uberti 1851 navies and 4F Goex, 18 grains of powder under a .380 ball. I posted above that I had tested this load and found it surprisingly snappy. The report and concussion while shooting in an enclosed prop was considerably louder and stronger than when I use 2F, recoil was sharper, about like a .38+P out of a snubbie, and the steel targets rang like they were being hit with mild cowboy .45s. My fellow competitors made comments about the difference. The guns had much less fouling than when using 2F even though I used no wad and only wiped off the cylinder face between stages. The only problem I encountered was on the second stage when one revolver’s wedge loosened. After that I ensured the wedges were seated with a mallet after charging the chambers and encountered no more problems.

There was room in the chambers for more powder but I have no interest in going above 18 grains in these guns. 4F gives me increased respect for the 1851, though. It seemed pretty anemic when charged with 2F, and I wondered how the Civil War veterans quoted by Elmer Keith could consider it a “man killer”, and I figured that Bill Hickok’s shot on Davis Tutt was mostly luck. But 4F under a round ball in an 1851 makes it a different gun. Maybe Hickok didn’t need as much luck as I have previously thought.

 

[paul harm]

Why do some think BP of yesterday was stronger than todays BP ? Another thought, our BP guns are in the same pressure ranges as modern smokeless shotgun shells - from 5000 to 12,00psi. So, some shotgun shell reloading data is still given in LUPs [ thankfully not many ], and most today agree at those pressures, a 1000 is added to LUP figures to get PSI. This does not apply to high pressure loads like modern pistol and rifle.

 

[rodwha]

Yes, unfortunately Lyman only had LUP when they did their testing 43+ years ago. You can read up on LUP/CUP/PSI. But most folks feel proper LUP in lower pressure rounds is reliable data; If you stay within known sane reloading data. I have read that PSI is the best way to test peak pressures. Me personally, if I was using 4F, would be to stick to the starting to mid-range data in the LYMAN book. I know that powder like SWISS is more energetic than a comparable granulation GOEX. The max *37.0gr charge with GOEX may be ok, but with something like SWISS or substitutes like 777 may be too hot, and IMHO I wouldn't push the boundaries, use the starting to mid range (normal) loads. I don't use substitutes like 777 and I know its hot and more for the in-line guns.

PYRODEX is ok,I still have a few bottles(and original cardboard can!!) and I feel its "a little" hotter than GOEX. I load 577-450MH, and Pyrodex RS definitely causes more case expansion than GOEX 1F, I do not use it for that application.

Actually it is fine to use full loads of T7. It’s 3F (and 2F) and not like 4F as far as pressures go.