We're on a list for buying multiple handguns?
- Thread starter .cheese.
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Brian Dale
Member
What Fourth Amendment?
Autolycus
Member
It has been like that for awhile. I really am disgusted by the fact that Chicago PD has been doing this and it is legal somehow. Cause I dont think it is constitutional.
nobody_special
member
And just how are they able to know if someone bought 2 handguns in the same week? The paperwork stays with the FFL, and I thought the Brady check records had to be destroyed within 24 hours?
Brian Dale
Member
I believe that FFLs are required to report to the ATF all multiple purchases of firearms, or possibly just handguns, on a single day. How the State of Illinois gets this information, I don't know. I also don't remember whether that's mentioned in a line on Form 4473 or whether I've read it elsewhere. Vague post, I know...
Anybody? Bueller?
Anybody? Bueller?
shooting time
Member
I beleive the dealer has to send a form to BATF if you buy more than 1 handgun in a 5 day period.
Erebus
Member
I believe it's 7 days. But yes if you buy 2 handguns in a week they have to report it to the BATFE. Apparently Chicago is accessing and cataloging/registering all these records.
Apparently to exercise your 2nd amendment right you have to sacrifice your 4th.
chas_martel
Member
I don't give a crap what they know about me.
I'm tempted to send them a list of what I have.
I'll bet a dollar to a donut my 'collection' would put
their panties in a wad.
I'm tempted to send them a list of what I have.
I'll bet a dollar to a donut my 'collection' would put
their panties in a wad.
Blackfork
Member
Mission Creep
Every government, and that certainly includes THIS government, eventually misuses any power or information it is granted.
I hope the RealID folks among us take note.
Every government, and that certainly includes THIS government, eventually misuses any power or information it is granted.
I hope the RealID folks among us take note.
ID_shooting
Member
Let me see if I get this straight...
Chicago is keeping a nation-wide registry of multiple firearms purchasers even if they have never stepped foot in IL.
This is in direct violation of the Idaho State Constitution:
SECTION 11. RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. The people have the right to
keep and bear arms, which right shall not be abridged; but this provision
shall not prevent the passage of laws to govern the carrying of weapons
concealed on the person nor prevent passage of legislation providing minimum
sentences for crimes committed while in possession of a firearm, nor prevent
the passage of legislation providing penalties for the possession of firearms
by a convicted felon, nor prevent the passage of any legislation punishing the
use of a firearm. No law shall impose licensure, registration or special
taxation on the ownership or possession of firearms or ammunition. Nor shall
any law permit the confiscation of firearms, except those actually used in the
commission of a felony.
So what, when I land in O'Hare and they run my soon-to-be new National ID I will be searched for firearms becuase I had a $1500.00 gift certificate back in 2001 and I bought 4 hand guns with it in an IDAHO gun shop.
Chicago is keeping a nation-wide registry of multiple firearms purchasers even if they have never stepped foot in IL.
This is in direct violation of the Idaho State Constitution:
SECTION 11. RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS. The people have the right to
keep and bear arms, which right shall not be abridged; but this provision
shall not prevent the passage of laws to govern the carrying of weapons
concealed on the person nor prevent passage of legislation providing minimum
sentences for crimes committed while in possession of a firearm, nor prevent
the passage of legislation providing penalties for the possession of firearms
by a convicted felon, nor prevent the passage of any legislation punishing the
use of a firearm. No law shall impose licensure, registration or special
taxation on the ownership or possession of firearms or ammunition. Nor shall
any law permit the confiscation of firearms, except those actually used in the
commission of a felony.
So what, when I land in O'Hare and they run my soon-to-be new National ID I will be searched for firearms becuase I had a $1500.00 gift certificate back in 2001 and I bought 4 hand guns with it in an IDAHO gun shop.
geekWithA.45
Moderator Emeritus
My inside guy tells me that the ATF actually does destroy all NICS records every 24 hours, in full accordance with the law, EXCEPT, as provided by law, those records which have been flagged as "suspicious" for one or more of several possible reasons.
Buying more than one handgun in the 7 (?) day period is one of those reasons.
That would seem to be the list that the CHI PD now has.
Although buying more than one handgun at a time isn't de-facto suspicious, it's one of the ways to get a handle on those who make a business of straw buying a dozen handguns at a time for the purpose of smuggling them elsewhere, essentially bypassing the FFL system. 2 guns seems an awfully low bar to be deemed suspicious, but I don't have a good answer as to what the right number should be, if any.
The huge beef I have here is that while this list is maintained by the Feds for the purpose of enforcing Federal law, it has now been tranfered to a state for the purpose of enforcing a municipal ordinance, and wildly innapropriately so.
For example, how exactly does the CHI PD having my name and the serial numbers of my Walther TPH plinking gun, and my wife's P3-AT carry gun in PA have anything to do with FOIDS in CHI?
Hmm....I wonder if I have standing to sue.....
Buying more than one handgun in the 7 (?) day period is one of those reasons.
That would seem to be the list that the CHI PD now has.
Although buying more than one handgun at a time isn't de-facto suspicious, it's one of the ways to get a handle on those who make a business of straw buying a dozen handguns at a time for the purpose of smuggling them elsewhere, essentially bypassing the FFL system. 2 guns seems an awfully low bar to be deemed suspicious, but I don't have a good answer as to what the right number should be, if any.
The huge beef I have here is that while this list is maintained by the Feds for the purpose of enforcing Federal law, it has now been tranfered to a state for the purpose of enforcing a municipal ordinance, and wildly innapropriately so.
For example, how exactly does the CHI PD having my name and the serial numbers of my Walther TPH plinking gun, and my wife's P3-AT carry gun in PA have anything to do with FOIDS in CHI?
Hmm....I wonder if I have standing to sue.....
Outlaw Man
Member
Unfortunately, the Fourth Amendment contains the same "the right of the People" clause that the Second has. And we all know how the government feels about that.Happy Bob said:
I guess I'm on that list, too, even though I returned one of the guns that same day.
nobody_special
member
But how would they know if you've bought more than one handgun in a 7 day period, if they are destroying the records within 24 hours? The only person who should be capable of determining that is the FFL... and then only if you were to buy both handguns from the same place.
Something smells here...
Brian Dale
Member
Well, I guess that it's time for me to plan a multiple-handgun purchase day for myself, then. I don't wish to make more work for ATF (heck, let them all retire and go bass fishing) but I wouldn't mind clogging the City of Chicago's system with their attempts to handle the nationwide records which they have no authority to gather. Maybe I should try to buy "doubles," from now on.
On the other hand, it's only a matter of time until Chicago or the State of Illinois has paper records lost or stolen, or a database cracked. That's about as hard to predict as to say that it's going to rain some time in the next year. Talk about liability: maybe we'll see large groups of gun owners suing a gun-grabbing city government instead of the city suing gun manufacturers.
Those forms list my home address, and Chicago has never had a shortage of criminals.
On the other hand, it's only a matter of time until Chicago or the State of Illinois has paper records lost or stolen, or a database cracked. That's about as hard to predict as to say that it's going to rain some time in the next year. Talk about liability: maybe we'll see large groups of gun owners suing a gun-grabbing city government instead of the city suing gun manufacturers.
Those forms list my home address, and Chicago has never had a shortage of criminals.
El Tejon
Member
Yes, you're on a list in the ATFE's central depository in West Virginia.
The ATFE has been computerizing gun records (old 4473s, background check requests, special projects such as Pittsburgh, Forward Trace, and the ongoing .50usmg project, warranty and repair records, etc.) since the Clinton Administration and has testified about their projects in front of Congress and boasted about it to the media.
The Constitution and law mean nothing to the feds. They are above it.
The ATFE has been computerizing gun records (old 4473s, background check requests, special projects such as Pittsburgh, Forward Trace, and the ongoing .50usmg project, warranty and repair records, etc.) since the Clinton Administration and has testified about their projects in front of Congress and boasted about it to the media.
The Constitution and law mean nothing to the feds. They are above it.
Cosmoline
Member
Molon labe, Daley!
Mobster scum.
Mobster scum.
Here's my anecdote regarding this:
I was told if you buy more than 1 gun in any 7-day period, the FFL has to report it to the ATFE. This makes me think that if I used two different FFLs, this breach of constitutional rights would not occur.
I was told if you buy more than 1 gun in any 7-day period, the FFL has to report it to the ATFE. This makes me think that if I used two different FFLs, this breach of constitutional rights would not occur.
Brian Dale
Member
Local cops? Sure, they can come over and shoot them with me. No problem.
After the first few boxes, they have to start providing their own ammo. I'll buy the ammo for their kids, though, if they bring them along.
No Chicago politicians are invited.
After the first few boxes, they have to start providing their own ammo. I'll buy the ammo for their kids, though, if they bring them along.
No Chicago politicians are invited.
Cellar Dweller
Member
Here's why RKBA "cause" is doomed...
...this became public knowledge in July 2001. CAGE does have the authority to collect ATF records (and misuse/disseminate it how they see fit) because a FEDERAL appellate judge said they could and nobody gives a damn. RKBA 'advocates' say "Illinois is a lost cause, don't waste resources fighting them in court OR on election day. If you don't like it, move." Everyone is all up-in-arms about Bloomberg's out-of-juristiction stings; nobody cares about Daley's machinations because he stacks the deck first. Daley defied the FAA (and won) over Meigs Field, remember?
OK, say a state AWB passes where you live after fleeing IL, or perhaps you've never lived here...ATF may deny access to records to state/municipal government. CAGE will happily pass along records LAWFULLY, under the pretext of "those 'assault weapons' may turn up on the streets of Chicago some day." While the states have been passing "castle defense" and "no Katrina-style confiscations" and CCW and the line is being held, one is moving to become the Sugarman/Brady dream...and WILL be used against the other 49 as soon as it becomes practical.
Keep on cracking sheeple jokes, or hope Chicago falls into Lake Michigan, or note that it is a racist hellhole and you'll never go there intentionally, or hope Daley chokes on a sausage, or that the dead outvote and outspend NRA members, ha ha ha. Chicago is coming to YOU.
...this became public knowledge in July 2001. CAGE does have the authority to collect ATF records (and misuse/disseminate it how they see fit) because a FEDERAL appellate judge said they could and nobody gives a damn. RKBA 'advocates' say "Illinois is a lost cause, don't waste resources fighting them in court OR on election day. If you don't like it, move." Everyone is all up-in-arms about Bloomberg's out-of-juristiction stings; nobody cares about Daley's machinations because he stacks the deck first. Daley defied the FAA (and won) over Meigs Field, remember?
OK, say a state AWB passes where you live after fleeing IL, or perhaps you've never lived here...ATF may deny access to records to state/municipal government. CAGE will happily pass along records LAWFULLY, under the pretext of "those 'assault weapons' may turn up on the streets of Chicago some day." While the states have been passing "castle defense" and "no Katrina-style confiscations" and CCW and the line is being held, one is moving to become the Sugarman/Brady dream...and WILL be used against the other 49 as soon as it becomes practical.
Keep on cracking sheeple jokes, or hope Chicago falls into Lake Michigan, or note that it is a racist hellhole and you'll never go there intentionally, or hope Daley chokes on a sausage, or that the dead outvote and outspend NRA members, ha ha ha. Chicago is coming to YOU.
Well, when I walk into a store and buy 2 Colt AR's (6920's) and a Glock 27 in a few weeks all in one purchase..... I guess I'll once again make the list.
I must have made this list at least 3 times so far. This would be number 4.
Should I expect my face to turn on up on the FBI's most wanted list or something soon?
I must have made this list at least 3 times so far. This would be number 4.
Should I expect my face to turn on up on the FBI's most wanted list or something soon?
Sort of like the news today.
Bush vows swift action in FBI records scandal
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070310/pl_nm/fbi_patriotact_bush_dc;_ylt=AihWVmlD58CJ4BNqT91kudCs0NUE
once they have your name and any data on you, it will never be destroyed, you may think it is, but when you screw up or want another gun, all those deleted records seem to come to the surface.
Bush vows swift action in FBI records scandal
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070310/pl_nm/fbi_patriotact_bush_dc;_ylt=AihWVmlD58CJ4BNqT91kudCs0NUE
once they have your name and any data on you, it will never be destroyed, you may think it is, but when you screw up or want another gun, all those deleted records seem to come to the surface.
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