Were WWII trench guns an unnecessary anachronism?

[bushmaster1313]

The WWII trench guns are cool and scary, and they command a pretty penny. However,it seems to me that there was no need for a trench gun in WWII. From my perspwctive, the heat shield and the bayonet fixture muck up a trench gun, and with bayonet fixed the length would be unwieldy in a house clearing scenario.

It made sense to turn out relatively cheapriot guns for guard duty in order to free up rifles for combat. Were the WWII trench guns an unnecesary anachronism?

 

[rcmodel]

No.

They thought pretty highly of them in the South Pacific island jungle fighting & cave clearing I betcha!

I doubt the bayonet got used much, but the heat shield & sling swivels probably did.

rc

 

[Slamfire]

Our oldest surviving Gun Club member, who landed second wave on Iwo and Okinawa, he never mentioned shotguns.

His group was taking small arms fire from a cave, and the GI's waited for night fall so they could crawl unseen and roll a couple of grenades in. That stopped the party for the Japanese.

Just yesterday he mentioned how many men were slaughtered, and how many American were not just hit, they were hit by head shots. He choked up and would not go any further, the memory bothered him so much.

Still, I got the very clear idea that being visible would get you killed.

Charging across an open area, so you could jump into a cave, and duke it out mano e mano, would probably get you cut in half by a Nambu.

I also suspect, if you were close enough to use a shotgun on them, you were near enough for them to drop a grenade on you.

I would take a BAR over a shotgun any day.

 

[rcmodel]

Marines on Iwo Jima.
Looks like an M1 Carbine and a Model 12 to me.



I doubt they were too effective during the initial invasion.
But for bunker & cave clearing later on they were widely used and highly thought of.

My dad carried a Model 97 at times on Luzon, Samar, and Leyte as a door-gunner on a SeaBee bulldozer!

rc

 

[bushmaster1313]

Short barrel riot I understand by why the baynet attachment and the heat shield?

 

[dafitch]

Heat shield keeps your hand from getting burned on a hot barrel when using the bayonet.

 

[rcmodel]

Because it was really hot in the South Pacific island fighting at times?

Guns were almost too hot to touch before you started shooting them.

One of the same reasons M1 Garands & Carbines, or almost any military weapon have handguards on the stocks.

Another added bonus is they protect the barrel to some degree from rough handling, and impact damage from low flying objects like shrapnel and ricochets.

rc

 

[dafitch]

My take on a modern trench gun:

 

[bushmaster1313]

The Mossberg M590A1 also has a bayonet lug.

 

[Slamfire]

Marines on Iwo Jima.
Looks like an M1 Carbine and a Model 12 to me.

Sure does. I can not remember seeing another picture of shotgun carrying GI.

If you look at the terrain he is in, it is very open. That Marine has a lot of open ground to cover before a Japanese is in range of his shotgun.

Clearing caves, maybe after a heavy dose of flame throwers and grenades. Not before.

 

[Gunfighter123]

They thought pretty highly of them in the South Pacific island jungle fighting & cave clearing I betcha!

Gotta agree 100% ---- also they were thought very highly of by those who used them in the jungle of Vietnam {at least my brother did --101st AB} .

Hey RC --- nice photo you posted --- I may have seen it before but I am quite sure it is not the first photo I have seen of a riot-gun in combat.

 

[bushmaster1313]

How often were bayonets fixed in WWII Korea and Vietnam.

I would guess not very often

 

[rcmodel]

More often then you might think in Korea.
I had a bayonet instructor in basic training that survived a "human wave" attack in Korea and ensuing bayonet hand to hand combat.

He had so many scars on his body he looked like he lost an ax fight.
And quite obviously, he won the bayonet fight.

It's still not unheard of in modern combat either.
A British article published on May 17, 2004 reads:
"OUTNUMBERED British soldiers killed 35 Iraqi attackers in the Army's first bayonet charge since the Falklands War 22 years ago."

rc

 

[Kernel]

Bayonets come in very handy when guarding prisoners. Even on today’s battle fields. When you don't speak the other guy's language, it's funny how a sharp piece of steel can help in getting a message across.

“Move there!”
“Sit down!”
“Shut the &$%* up!”

Sort of a less-than-lethal way to intimidate and coax someone into correct behavior. Otherwise, what’s your option? Shoot the guy. How's that help? Can't interrogate a corpse.

 

[WardenWolf]

Just yesterday he mentioned how many men were slaughtered, and how many American were not just hit, they were hit by head shots.

Arisakas are damn accurate rifles. I have an early Type 99 that my grandfather picked up on Okinawa. Very fine gun.

 

[Ky Larry]

Looks to me like a scatter gun would be very helpful when fighting at bad breath range in thick jungle (Guadalcanal,Bouganville,Phillipines).

 

[bushmaster1313]

Scattergun (riot gun) yes.

But the bayonet attachment, to me, seems like it would get in the way.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

How often were bayonets fixed in WWII Korea and Vietnam.

Don't know how often but they definitely were used. My fil was saved by his in cqc.

 

[tactikel]

Fire 200 rounds of 12 ga as fast as you can, then grab the barrel of a 12 ga pump, and crawl 100 yards, how does the heat shield sound now? The guns used in WWII (and BTW Vietnam) were carry overs from WWI where masses of men were still launched at fortified positions. With 5 round magazines and CQC ranges measured in feet, I suppose the bayonet came in handy. As RC pointed out a thin shotgun barrel is easily dented, the shield helps protect it.

 

[arizona98tj]

Here is a pic of my old Savage. It doesn't have a disconnect.....just hold the trigger and pump it. The bayonet lug and bayonet were added back in the 70's......I was working at a gun shop and this was a little project we did after work one Saturday.

And yes.....without a heat shield....it does get very hot. Never found one that could be easily adapted.

 

[bushmaster1313]

Great posts
Thanks to all

My take is that if you are going to take a shotgun into battle the heat shield makes a lot of sense. And if the bayonet lug attachment doesn't impede the gun's usefulness the lug is a good thing to have just in case it's needed.

 

[AStone]

When you don't speak the other guy's language, it's funny how
a sharp piece of steel can help in getting a message across.

That's funny.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Get hands on a copy of either one of Bruce Canfield's collector oriented books on US fighting shotguns and you'll see LOTS of pictures of shotguns at war- trench guns, riot guns, shotguns adapted for training antiaircraft gunners, etc. And there's a lot of text on the history of these guns too.

Another classic is Thomas F. Swearengen's The World's Fighting Shotguns. It's a history of shotguns in action from the earliest muzzleloaders to about the mid-1970s, and is a very useful source for anyone interested in the various roles of the shotgun as a weapon.

Gotta do your homework...

lpl

 

[Dimis]

fixing bayonets isnt permanent guys its not like attatching it will make the gun useless either

it falls under the school of better to have and not need then need and not have

the bayo lug isnt intrusive so haveing a shotgun with one isnt much different than haveing one without

your also talking about a low capacity weapon with men possably charging you what do you do for the 7th guy? simple you place the bayonet in him vigorously if you have the chance

the bayonet theory is almost as bad as the sidearm debate ive heard so many people say that no one needs a sidearm if they have a rifle but there are MANY documented cases of 1911s saving someones butt in WWII and im sure the M9 has had its share of rear savings as well

if it were me i would want as many stabby stabby poky poky bang bangs as i could carry
rifle or shotgun, bayonet, sidearm and still another knife like a KaBar

run out of ammo and see how you feel about your bayonet and yes i mean out of ammo not just in the gun but non on you at all and your closest buddy is too far away to toss you some that bayonet will feel like excaliber compaired to nothing at all

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Medal of Honor-Bayonets in Korea

ADAMS, STANLEY T.

Rank and organization: Master Sergeant (then Sfc.), U.S. Army, Company A, 19th Infantry Regiment. Place and date: Near Sesim-ni, Korea, 4 February 1951. Entered service at: Olathe, Kans. Born: 9 May 1922, DeSoto, Kans. G.O. No.: 66, 2 August 1951. Citation: M/Sgt. Adams, Company A, distinguished himself by conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity above and beyond the call of duty in action against an enemy. At approximately 0100 hours, M/Sgt. Adams' platoon, holding an outpost some 200 yards ahead of his company, came under a determined attack by an estimated 250 enemy troops. Intense small-arms, machine gun, and mortar fire from 3 sides pressed the platoon back against the main line of resistance. Observing approximately 150 hostile troops silhouetted against the skyline advancing against his platoon, M/Sgt. Adams leaped to his feet, urged his men to fix bayonets, and he, with 13 members of his platoon, charged this hostile force with indomitable courage. Within 50 yards of the enemy M/Sgt. Adams was knocked to the ground when pierced in the leg by an enemy bullet. He jumped to his feet and, ignoring his wound, continued on to close with the enemy when he was knocked down 4 times from the concussion of grenades which had bounced off his body. Shouting orders he charged the enemy positions and engaged them in hand-to-hand combat where man after man fell before his terrific onslaught with bayonet and rifle butt. After nearly an hour of vicious action M/Sgt. Adams and his comrades routed the fanatical foe, killing over 50 and forcing the remainder to withdraw. Upon receiving orders that his battalion was moving back he provided cover fire while his men withdrew. M/Sgt. Adams' superb leadership, incredible courage, and consummate devotion to duty so inspired his comrades that the enemy attack was completely thwarted, saving his battalion from possible disaster. His sustained personal bravery and indomitable fighting spirit against overwhelming odds reflect the utmost glory upon himself and uphold the finest traditions of the infantry and the military service.