Westchester, NY Issues

[Indigo22]

Go to the city government and demand that the invading homes into this buffer zone be torn down in the name of public safety... A 70 year safe history should say a lot for your organisation.

 

[Indigo22]

Our local club has set a rule in place that ANY member or one of their visitors shooting above the berm or causing a ricochet to escape over the berm will have their membership revoked. I'm thinking a Police department may have their privileges to use the range revoked as well if one of their officers does the same.

 

[Speedo66]

I've shot there, odd location, but great place. Seem to remember that the range is owned by the Westchester Police Federation, or some such name. It's the county police benevolent association, which is why they allowed LEO to shoot free there. On a leased piece of land owned by Con Ed.

The weak point is Con Ed. They no doubt allowed this cooperation to go on as long as it was quiet and brought no bad publicity to them. Any hint of a problem, something not PC, will unfortunately have their lawyers looking for a way out of the lease.

I no longer live in the state, but I wish you luck with it!

 

[barnbwt]

"I'm thinking a Police department may have their privileges to use the range revoked as well if one of their officers does the same."

That would be inadvisable; the police are the best bet they have of remaining open, even it is no longer to the general public; City Council will go to bat for their cops, more often than not (and much more often than for some random small business owner irritating his neighbors). Sprawl happens, and open-air gun ranges are kind of like hog farms in that no one wants to live close to one (even if they enjoy their products). What a responsible range-owner(s) should do once well-established, is have a long-term game plan for how they will uproot and move to more rural climes, or convert into an indoor or highly-restricted (tube-based) outdoor range. These owners typically have a decade or more to see the writing on the wall. Too many range owners hang on for too long, to the point the whole community is turned against them and increasingly drastic/questionable means are needed to remove or shut down the range. When people start framing you for crimes en masse in order to get you to leave, there is very little upside to remaining (apart from principle). In the end, the old range-owner moves or retires like he should have before, but the adjacent residents are all left with a negative view of gun ranges.

I wonder if anybody has developed a means of detecting whether debris goes over the berm; like a microphone listening for reports or zips on the far side of the wall where there should be none. That, coupled with a security camera system, would give much protection and accountability to ranges. They would be able to present evidence that the round that hit X's house was the only escape in the last X months/years, and that it was fired by Y who was promptly booted at the time for firing an AR while doing the Funky Chicken in fatigues. Lawsuit is then directed toward Mr. Y.

I sympathize; the range I used to shoot at has been in NE Dallas for decades, but (likely) unscrupulous developers convinced the (likely) unscrupulous city council to let them build solid sub divisions for miles past the wall, to within 600 yards or so. Every round that escapes must therefore end in an inhabited area. As unfair as it is, that's the fact, and more and more people seem to raise claims of stray bullet strikes (or injuries) every year. They already had to ban FMJ rifle rounds (lame), pistols beyond 25 yards (lame), any off-bench rifle fire (lame), and finally all rifle rounds above 30 caliber. That's what did it for me. They were later permitted by a stone-walling city zoning board to build up their berms at massive personal expense, so real rifle rounds are permitted once more. But what's the point? It is plain they are being driven out, and resistance will only make things more expensive and bitter for everyone involved. No use standing in the way of progress.

TCB

 

[parsimonious_instead]

I've shot there, odd location, but great place. Seem to remember that the range is owned by the Westchester Police Federation, or some such name. It's the county police benevolent association, which is why they allowed LEO to shoot free there. On a leased piece of land owned by Con Ed.

The weak point is Con Ed. They no doubt allowed this cooperation to go on as long as it was quiet and brought no bad publicity to them. Any hint of a problem, something not PC, will unfortunately have their lawyers looking for a way out of the lease.

I no longer live in the state, but I wish you luck with it!

It's a private corporation called Westchester County Police Revolver and Rifle League, inc.
Run by a board of directors mostly consisting of active duty and retired LEO.

Cops get to shoot for free, and at times members have brought up the idea of charging them something to help us further build up the treasury. That said, it may have been wise to keep giving them a pass on fees - it's one of the "selling" points of the place, and may make it easier when persuading LEO users of the Range to pitch in and speak up.

Still not sure how ConEd would be anxious to terminate the lease. They're a public utility and as such I think would be less vulnerable to boycotts, bad PR, etc. If the Range were leasing some unused curtilage around a distribution center for a supermarket chain, for example, I bet that chain would immediately be targeted for smearing, boycotts, etc.

 

[parsimonious_instead]

"I'm thinking a Police department may have their privileges to use the range revoked as well if one of their officers does the same."

That would be inadvisable; the police are the best bet they have of remaining open, even it is no longer to the general public; City Council will go to bat for their cops, more often than not (and much more often than for some random small business owner irritating his neighbors). Sprawl happens, and open-air gun ranges are kind of like hog farms in that no one wants to live close to one (even if they enjoy their products). What a responsible range-owner(s) should do once well-established, is have a long-term game plan for how they will uproot and move to more rural climes, or convert into an indoor or highly-restricted (tube-based) outdoor range. These owners typically have a decade or more to see the writing on the wall. Too many range owners hang on for too long, to the point the whole community is turned against them and increasingly drastic/questionable means are needed to remove or shut down the range. When people start framing you for crimes en masse in order to get you to leave, there is very little upside to remaining (apart from principle). In the end, the old range-owner moves or retires like he should have before, but the adjacent residents are all left with a negative view of gun ranges.

I wonder if anybody has developed a means of detecting whether debris goes over the berm; like a microphone listening for reports or zips on the far side of the wall where there should be none. That, coupled with a security camera system, would give much protection and accountability to ranges. They would be able to present evidence that the round that hit X's house was the only escape in the last X months/years, and that it was fired by Y who was promptly booted at the time for firing an AR while doing the Funky Chicken in fatigues. Lawsuit is then directed toward Mr. Y.

I sympathize; the range I used to shoot at has been in NE Dallas for decades, but (likely) unscrupulous developers convinced the (likely) unscrupulous city council to let them build solid sub divisions for miles past the wall, to within 600 yards or so. Every round that escapes must therefore end in an inhabited area. As unfair as it is, that's the fact, and more and more people seem to raise claims of stray bullet strikes (or injuries) every year. They already had to ban FMJ rifle rounds (lame), pistols beyond 25 yards (lame), any off-bench rifle fire (lame), and finally all rifle rounds above 30 caliber. That's what did it for me. They were later permitted by a stone-walling city zoning board to build up their berms at massive personal expense, so real rifle rounds are permitted once more. But what's the point? It is plain they are being driven out, and resistance will only make things more expensive and bitter for everyone involved. No use standing in the way of progress.

TCB

Indeed we need police on our side - unfortunately in media reports they keep mentioning a that it's "not a real police range" which is only true in the sense
that it's not affiliated with a particular department, although run by a board of retired and current cops and used by them all the time.

We have to hammer the point home that we've repeatedly adapted to the changing neighborhood - stopping use of magnum, shotguns, and centerfire rifle - it's pistol caliber and .22 only. Which is fine - it covers 95% of what Members want to do there. We also need to emphasize that we're willing to follow NRA Range Technical Team recommendations to further improve on our excellent safety, and do additional work to mitigate noise. Before all of this happened, I contacted AcoustiBLok about their QuietFiber products, and I'll push the Board to at least consider them.

It all comes down to money - the more we have, the more we can do. We're surrounded by increasing affluence but always ran on a shoestring.

At the end of the day I think this whole thing is a culture clash more than a safety issue. In some ways, that makes me want to fight harder to keep it open, to make a statement that in this area, gun owners are here, and here to stay.

 

[pendennis]

Before you take further steps, it would be advisable to get an attorney familiar with the issues you have - lease, use, etc. You should also be contacting the NRA, since they have resources to help in your fight.

Our club has had a number of clashes with property owners who've built homes long after our club was established. We usually maintain pretty good relations, and the local township is aware of our stake in the area.

The latest clash came when someone living in a trailer park about a mile away, complained that someone from our club had launched a round into her trailer. She called the club; and we called the township police, who investigated. Our ranges all face to the east. Her trailer had a hole in it on the east side. Question number one and only: Just how did a round supposedly from WSW of her, enter her trailer from the east??

No matter what, this is going to cost you and your range some bucks. But, get a lawyer.

 

[barnbwt]

it's pistol caliber and .22 only. Which is fine - it covers 95% of what Members want to do there.

Ugh, just like my old range, only worse. Such a silly mandate for an insurer to impose on ranges, seeing how much more likely an idiot pistolero is to send one over the berm than a bench shooter, but whatever. It was a 9mm round striking a man (way too close and at and odd angle to the range for it to have come from there, but what's a little framing between friends?) that got them in trouble, but somehow banning 30caliber rifles is the cure. I guarantee you your members would love to shoot more than those options, but accept they have no alternative and move on.

So, it seems like the real endgame here is to become a pistol range (which is sounds like you already are), LEO only training range (which will get you protected status, but resentment from non-LEO folks), or leave/go out of business. As cruel as it is, I think you need to decide whether to become an official organized police training range (my recommendation, since it sounds like that is very nearly the current situation, probably since there are so few other options for non-LEOs to train at) where you can get the city to pay for safety upgrades rather than yourselves, turn into a fully-contained, noise-abated indoor pistol range, or pull up stakes and buy some new property further away. Sadly, the latter two options are incredibly capital intensive, but there's not many good options at this point.

Your range takes up room that the encroaching city wants (developers, city, and individual people), and they will keep imposing greater and greater restraints on you until it is impossible to persevere. You may hold them off this time, but eventually someone will claim an unengraved bullet broke their window, and it'll start all over again, and the city will once more be all to happy to impose another $5 million safety requirement. So the options are; to spend time, resources, and goodwill resisting an inevitable conclusion, to get in bed with the local government that will look after its own resources, or to "go west" where land is cheap and unencumbered and try to start over on a range that will last another generation or two (or to fully contain your operation indoors so it is indistinguishable to passersby from a fab shop, and any claims of collateral damage can be readily disproven).

If you do intend to remain operating outdoors, I implore you to set up cameras, sensors, or some sort of measures to help prove your range's innocence, or deflect blame/liability onto the idiots responsible the next time this happens. You will never be given the benefit of the doubt by these people; it's a combative relationship from here on out.

TCB

 

[parsimonious_instead]

We lost the fight...

Greetings, all:

Today the WCPRRL (Ardsley Range) received a certified letter announcing that its landlord, the Consolidated Edison, was exercising its right to terminate its lease with 30 days' notice.
No matter the legislative outcome (which suddenly tilted back in our favor yesterday at Greenburgh Town Hall), the property owner has final say on whether we stay or not, and they decided we had to go.
We suspended operations voluntarily since June 12, but after 73 years the guns fell forever silent.
Shooting outdoors in a neo-rustic suburban anomaly - gone.
A Range Office that was as much a social club as a place to sign in and staple up our targets - gone.
A safe but unusually non-regimented place to introduce people to shooting - gone.
An inexpensive place to shoot - gone (more than a few members absolutely will not be able to afford the shiny new indoor range opening up nearby).
A place where the blue wall between LEO and non-LEO fractured and crumbled - gone.
A place where at least 11 members had their ashes scattered - gone.

It's all gone now, except for the memories.

 

[Speedo66]

Very sorry to hear that, it was a great range for all.

 

[Drail]

All it took was one idiot resident claiming they found a bullet on their property to close down a range I used to frequent. I don't believe they were ever required to even produce said bullet.