What am I missing? TB vs Silhouette

[MarshallDodge]

I'm trying to figure out why Ramshot has True Blue and Silhouette as offerings. They look to be so close in burn rate on paper. I have used Silhouette with success but have seen True Blue recommended by several reloaders as of late.

 

[fxvr5]

I'm trying to figure out why Ramshot has True Blue and Silhouette as offerings. They look to be so close in burn rate on paper.

Many companies offer powders that are very close on a burn rate chart.

Powder companies can offer anything they want. At least one brand offers the exact same powder with different names. Why? Because they can.

 

[MarshallDodge]

Many companies offer powders that are very close on a burn rate chart.

Powder companies can offer anything they want. At least one brand offers the exact same powder with different names. Why? Because they can.

Of course they can do whatever they want. I was just curious if there was something beyond that.

 

[Walkalong]

Together on the chart is one thing, how they react in different applications is another.

I have used both, both are good powders with different properties. TB is a very fine ball powder ands tends to give better ES/SD numbers. Silhouette is more “forgiving” as you approach max. It is a similar size to, and behaves more like, the typical medium speed ball powder than TB IMHO.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I'm trying to figure out why Ramshot has True Blue and Silhouette as offerings. They look to be so close in burn rate on paper. I have used Silhouette with success but have seen True Blue recommended by several reloaders as of late.

They use different flash suppressors and burn inhibitors. Like @Walkalong says, that changes how each powder acts/reacts under pressure.
Silhouette is the powder formerly known as Winchester Action Pistol.

 

[AJC1]

I'm trying to figure out why Ramshot has True Blue and Silhouette as offerings. They look to be so close in burn rate on paper. I have used Silhouette with success but have seen True Blue recommended by several reloaders as of late.

Form factor.... Silhouette is a flake and tb is a ball. Tb is slightly slower. I load 8.4 Silhouette vs 8.8 true blue.

 

[Walkalong]

Silhouette is a fairly fine flattened ball powder.

 

[kcofohio]

Silhouette is a fairly fine flattened ball powder.

^^This^^
Silhouette was formally WAP (Winchester Auto Pistol). Winchester owns the name "ball powder". I think they still do, though it is under Hodgdon's ownership.

Oops, I see @GeoDudeFlorida already said that.

 

[kcofohio]

True Blue I believe is made overseas, IIRC. It is one of the cleanest burning powders, by some accounts.

 

[Charlie98]

Together on the chart is one thing, how they react in different applications is another.

100%

Also... TB = TrailBoss, or TrueBlue? Be careful when abbreviating some things... particularly in load data.

 

[MarshallDodge]

Together on the chart is one thing, how they react in different applications is another.

I have used both, both are good powders with different properties. TB is a very fine ball powder ands tends to give better ES/SD numbers. Silhouette is more “forgiving” as you approach max. It is a similar size to, and behaves more like, the typical medium speed ball powder than TB IMHO.

I was looking at load data when comparing them. There is only a difference of 0.2 grains on some of the loads.

My experience with Silhouette in 45ACP has been very good for providing high velocities, used in pin matches.

I have a pound of True Blue that I want to try in 38 loads.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

100%

Also... TB = TrailBoss, or TrueBlue? Be careful when abbreviating some things... particularly in load data.

Must be True Blue because Trail Boss is no more.

 

[MarshallDodge]

Must be True Blue because Trail Boss is no more.

We're discussing True Blue!! TB is True Blue, based on the title of this thread.

Trailboss is on indefinite hold but you can discuss that in the other thread.

 

[Charlie98]

I have a pound of True Blue that I want to try in 38 loads.

I don't think TrueBlue would be a good choice for .38SPC loads. It is similar in burn rate to BlueDot, and... in my experience, BlueDot was a horrible .38SPC powder, it was simply too slow. It would be better as a .357MAG, et al, powder.

 

[MarshallDodge]

I don't think TrueBlue would be a good choice for .38SPC loads. It is similar in burn rate to BlueDot, and... in my experience, BlueDot was a horrible .38SPC powder, it was simply too slow. It would be better as a .357MAG, et al, powder.

Good to know. I have a lot of 357 brass sitting here...

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I was looking at load data when comparing them. There is only a difference of 0.2 grains on some of the loads.

My experience with Silhouette in 45ACP has been very good for providing high velocities, used in pin matches.

I have a pound of True Blue that I want to try in 38 loads.

My experience with True Blue is in 9mm, 40S&W and .45ACP and all good. In .38Spl it's not very special and it's not a good .357 mid-range powder, IMO. Basically, True Blue fills the same niche as No.5 and WAP/Silhouette but it does so differently.

The advantage to True Blue for me has been the flash suppressant - it works pretty well. No.5 is flash suppressed but WAP was a little less flashy. Silhouette has a little different flash suppressant than WAP - at Western Powder's request, according to Handloader Magazine's Propellant Profiles - but they're on par, IMO. IIRC, WAP was designed to burn cooler and used dinitrotoluene for a burn inhibitor. Silhouette uses nitrosodephinylamine. True Blue and No.5 both use diphenylamine - lower nitro content - as their primary inhibitors and flash suppressors. Chemically, No.5 has more ingredients but as far as the primary/active ingredients go, it and True Blue are more similar than True Blue and Silhouette - but the proportions differentiate No.5 and TB.

Like said, if you shoot ll of the above in low-light, you'll see the differences right away. They also all smell different.

This from the 15th Ed. Winchester Manual:

"WAP Action Pistol® propellant is the ammunition industry’s powder of choice for 9mm, 40 S&W, 38 Super, and the new Winchester 9x23mm. Years of development led to this high velocity, clean burning, low muzzle flash, highly consistent powder for factory loads and your reloads. WAP has a lower flame temperature than competitive products which extends barrel life. Ideal for use in competitive action pistol applications and high performance Law Enforcement and self defense applications."

At the time (1997), the competition was Alliant Power Pistol. Hope this helps.

 

[MarshallDodge]

I've never tried No. 5

I tried WAP decades ago and it left little yellow dots inside my gun. My assumption was that it was the flash suppressant. Originally, I was told that Silhouette was identical but your post makes sense, and the lack of yellow dots is proof.

I took a defensive night class with 9mm ammo loaded with Silhouette and it performed well. My WSF target loads did well also.

On edit- I still have some left

 

[Bobaloo22]

It never fails to amaze me how much I learn from all of you on this site.
Thank y’all

 

[AJC1]

Good to know. I have a lot of 357 brass sitting here...

8.8 with a cast 158 is gooder

 

[fxvr5]

I don't think TrueBlue would be a good choice for .38SPC loads. It is similar in burn rate to BlueDot, and... in my experience, BlueDot was a horrible .38SPC powder, it was simply too slow. It would be better as a .357MAG, et al, powder.

The burn rate of True Blue and Blue Dot is not similar. True Blue is #20 on the Hodgdon Chart, Blue Dot is #48.

https://hodgdonpowderco.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/updatedburnrateschart-1.pdf

Here is what Hodgdon says about True Blue: TRUE BLUE is the perfect powder for classic calibers such as the 38 Special, 44 Special, and 45 Long Colt. Its a double-base, spherical powder with great metering properties that make it an ideal choice for consistent results using high volume, progressive reloading equipment. It works well with cast bullets and is also an excellent choice for 9mm law enforcement rounds. Made in Belgium.

Ramshot True Blue

TRUE BLUE is the perfect powder for classic calibers such as the 38 Special, 44 Special, and 45 Long Colt. Its a double-base, spherical powder with great metering properties that make it an ideal choice for consistent results using high volume, progressive reloading equipment. It works well with...

www.hodgdonreloading.com

 

[vaalpens]

Silhouette is more “forgiving” as you approach max.

"WAP Action Pistol® propellant is the ammunition industry’s powder of choice for 9mm, 40 S&W, 38 Super, and the new Winchester 9x23mm.

I took a defensive night class with 9mm ammo loaded with Silhouette and it performed well.

Thanks to everybody for your input. I have heard good things about Silhouette, so I am definitely putting it on my to-get list.

 

[Charlie98]

The burn rate of True Blue and Blue Dot is not similar. True Blue is #20 on the Hodgdon Chart, Blue Dot is #48.

Quite honestly, I don't use that chart... it tells you very little. FWIW, they rank Zip slower than both Silhouette and TrueBlue... which kind of makes me wonder who posted those.

This chart shows it closer to BlueDot... but everything is subjective.

I guess the OP can give it a try in .38SPC... I'd be interested in his results.

 

[Walkalong]

In my real life load testing, using loads from Speer, Wester Powder, and Alliant, True Blue and Blue Dot are indeed fairly far apart in burn speed.

Yep, gotta take burn charts with a grain of salt, useful, not gospel. Always check load data from trusted sources.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

In my real life load testing, using loads from Speer, Wester Powder, and Alliant, True Blue and Blue Dot are indeed fairly far apart in burn speed.

Yep, gotta take burn charts with a grain of salt, useful, not gospel. Always check load data from trusted sources.

Agreed. I’ve tested True Blue, No.5, Unique and WAP (not Silhouette!) SxS and found True Blue to be about the same as No.5 in performance, faster than Unique and almost on par with WAP but cleaner.

I’m not a fanatic about clean burning powder but WAP always struck me as strange in its habit of leaving char behind.
Burn rate charts are good for conversation.

 

[chevrofreak]

The burn rate of True Blue and Blue Dot is not similar. True Blue is #20 on the Hodgdon Chart, Blue Dot is #48.

https://hodgdonpowderco.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/updatedburnrateschart-1.pdf

Here is what Hodgdon says about True Blue: TRUE BLUE is the perfect powder for classic calibers such as the 38 Special, 44 Special, and 45 Long Colt. Its a double-base, spherical powder with great metering properties that make it an ideal choice for consistent results using high volume, progressive reloading equipment. It works well with cast bullets and is also an excellent choice for 9mm law enforcement rounds. Made in Belgium.

Ramshot True Blue

TRUE BLUE is the perfect powder for classic calibers such as the 38 Special, 44 Special, and 45 Long Colt. Its a double-base, spherical powder with great metering properties that make it an ideal choice for consistent results using high volume, progressive reloading equipment. It works well with...

www.hodgdonreloading.com

This is the bad burn rate chart that Hodgdon put out. I can't believe they haven't removed it.

The attached is a more accurate version.