Gary G23
Member
Since you said the rifle will be used for self defense I would get this one:
http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/bcwa3f14m4iz.asp
http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/bcwa3f14m4iz.asp
What barrel length for AR15?
- Thread starter Alex45ACP
- Start date
- Status
Beren
Moderator Emeritus
I really like 11.5" myself, especially for home defense. 
Buy a complete Stag Arms lower half with collapsible stock from eaglefirearms.net. Buy a 16" or 20" upper from them or the vendor of your choice.
Fill out a Form 1 to register the lower as a SBR.
Use the 16" or 20" upper for the 3-4 months it'll take for the paperwork to clear.
Once you get your tax stamp, get an 11.5" upper from the vendor of your choice. CMMG has used 11.5" A1 Colt uppers currently.
Enjoy.
Buy a complete Stag Arms lower half with collapsible stock from eaglefirearms.net. Buy a 16" or 20" upper from them or the vendor of your choice.
Fill out a Form 1 to register the lower as a SBR.
Use the 16" or 20" upper for the 3-4 months it'll take for the paperwork to clear.
Once you get your tax stamp, get an 11.5" upper from the vendor of your choice. CMMG has used 11.5" A1 Colt uppers currently.
Enjoy.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Alex45ACP said:
That is a 20" HBAR (Heavy Barrel) profile. It will weigh almost a pound more than the Government Profile barrel and all of that weight will be forward of the barrel nut. Bushmaster does sell a 20" Government Profile barrel; but you would have to call and special order it. You can only order it off the website as a separate item.
Sunray said:
A 20" barrel has a muzzle velocity of about 3,259fps with 55gr M193. A 16" barrel has a muzzle velocity of 3,132fps with M193. There is a velocity loss; but it is nowhere near 100fps per inch.
Too Many Choices!?
Member
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2005
- Messages
- 763
Thanx Barth, and Beren you may have something there!
I like the way the short stiff barrels handle for home defense...My PDW AR-15 pistol is my home defense gun. I may SBR my Bushmaster lower and keep the PDW AR pistol as it is, since it can legally already take any length barrel and still be considered only a,"long barreled pistol" EVEN if I use a 16" or greater barrel...I also want a," blow back," operated .40 cal S&W PDW pistol upper, with a 7-8" barrel, and a suppressor. Especially if there are some nice long .40 S&W 30 round stick mags available !! Oh yeah, and I want a 7.62x39, 10 1/2" pistol upper, contingent on that same 30 round mag availibility !
PS-Short barreled velocities for 10 1/2" barrel will still force SP ammo to expand or atleast shred the soft lead tip while tumbling, depending on the distance to the target and muzzle velocity of projectile when it hits... Whcih would still ruin your day with an impact velocity of greater than 2200 fps....After all, putting two EXTRA HOLES(entry and exit) THAT GOD DID NOT INTEND TO BE THERE will atleast change a person's priorities under 200 y/m, as the sudden decompression of the bodies vascular system will cause the ceasation of hostilities sooner or later, dependant on # of, the size of the holes and, the placement of said holes !!
I like the way the short stiff barrels handle for home defense...My PDW AR-15 pistol is my home defense gun. I may SBR my Bushmaster lower and keep the PDW AR pistol as it is, since it can legally already take any length barrel and still be considered only a,"long barreled pistol" EVEN if I use a 16" or greater barrel...I also want a," blow back," operated .40 cal S&W PDW pistol upper, with a 7-8" barrel, and a suppressor. Especially if there are some nice long .40 S&W 30 round stick mags available
!! Oh yeah, and I want a 7.62x39, 10 1/2" pistol upper, contingent on that same 30 round mag availibility !PS-Short barreled velocities for 10 1/2" barrel will still force SP ammo to expand or atleast shred the soft lead tip while tumbling, depending on the distance to the target and muzzle velocity of projectile when it hits...
Whcih would still ruin your day with an impact velocity of greater than 2200 fps....After all, putting two EXTRA HOLES(entry and exit) THAT GOD DID NOT INTEND TO BE THERE will atleast change a person's priorities under 200 y/m, as the sudden decompression of the bodies vascular system will cause the ceasation of hostilities sooner or later, dependant on # of, the size of the holes and, the placement of said holes !!GoRon said:
I feel the same way. Just an excuse to buy another gun.
Got the Wife a National Match AR (20") - really it's hers
The wife should have ordered my 16" upper and 6 position stock Today (Dec 2) A clone of RRA Entry Tactical
I went with CMMG inc. Lowers and Rock River Arms everything else.
I only skimmed the pages, but if you're looking for Home defence I'd sway you twords a shot gun, .223 is know to over penitrate men at close range, I recomend 55g hollow points if you are to fire it indoors, because they stay in your target
I should have been more clear. This isn't going to be a home defense gun. I already have a 12 gauge for that. This will be used more for self defense in case of some serious incident like riots, etc. And as a fun range toy, of course. I also just want to pick one up because you never know when the gun grabbers will manage to get them banned.
I checked out a 16" model at the gun store today. It felt very nice, the balance was great. Unfortunately they didn't have a 20" model I could look at.
I live in a rural/suburban area right now but I'm moving to a much larger urban area in a couple of weeks so I will probably not be making many long range shots. So I guess the main question now is whether those extra 4" make a large difference in lethality at closer ranges (IE within 300 meters)?
I checked out a 16" model at the gun store today. It felt very nice, the balance was great. Unfortunately they didn't have a 20" model I could look at.
I live in a rural/suburban area right now but I'm moving to a much larger urban area in a couple of weeks so I will probably not be making many long range shots. So I guess the main question now is whether those extra 4" make a large difference in lethality at closer ranges (IE within 300 meters)?
Take a look at the barrels and handguards in this picture.
http://www.rockriverarms.com/item-d...ge=nbrcara2.gif&CFID=1435842&CFTOKEN=78698050
The barrel length is the same (16") on each but the HGs are 2 inches longer on the one with the mid-length gas system.
This pic also shows the difference in storage room required for the collapsing stock vs. the normal A2 stock. The collapsing stock is nice if diffent size people are going to be shooting it. I can set it short enough for an older child or extend it fully for me. I'm not sure it's an issue in Florida, but wearing thick clothing (or body armor) means the stock needs to be shorter to fit properly.
http://www.rockriverarms.com/item-d...ge=nbrcara2.gif&CFID=1435842&CFTOKEN=78698050
The barrel length is the same (16") on each but the HGs are 2 inches longer on the one with the mid-length gas system.
This pic also shows the difference in storage room required for the collapsing stock vs. the normal A2 stock. The collapsing stock is nice if diffent size people are going to be shooting it. I can set it short enough for an older child or extend it fully for me. I'm not sure it's an issue in Florida, but wearing thick clothing (or body armor) means the stock needs to be shorter to fit properly.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Alex45ACP said:Ahh, how much of an issue is this? I'm already extremely nervous buying this rifle because of all the horror stories about AR reliability, or lack thereof.
It is a very minor issue for most people. First it only applies to ARs that use barrels shorter than the original 20" design. You would need to run several carbines very hard before you noticed the difference in reliability and durability between the two systems. If you had maybe 20-30 rifles, you would see a costs savings over time with the longer gas system. With a single rifle, you likely would never notice the difference unless something else in the rifle was already marginal (like a chamber that was too tight or rough).
The issue with a carbine gas system is that the timing is off. The components in the AR15 were designed with the 20" system in mind. The carbine has different pressures and timing; but uses the same parts as the 20". Not only is there higher pressure at the gas port; but there is a shorter distance for the gas to travel. As a result, the gas is trying to cycle the action while pressures in the chamber are still high and the brass is still expanded against the chamber walls. This means more stress on the bolt and on some rifles, you can see some reliability issues pop up that are related to this. The other issue is that because the carbine cycles harder and faster, there is less margin of error for the magazine to position the next round for feeding. The small difference in cyclic times between a rifle and a carbine can mean that marginal magazines will work in a rifle; but not a carbine.
Now there are several things you can do to address these issues and increase the reliability of the carbine gas system. One is to run a heavier buffer - this slows the unlock time of the bolt a bit and gives more time for the pressure to drop as well as slowing the speed of the cycle. Replacing the stock extractor and ejector springs with heavy duty models designed for the carbine help the bolt deal with having to yank out the brass at higher pressures than the rifle. Also, replacing your magazine springs with heavy duty or +10% Wolff springs and USGI green followers (or Magpul self-levelling followers) help make sure that your mags will have the rounds in position quickly. Finally, you must pay special attention to keeping the bolt clean and lubed with a quality protectant. If a bolt is not properly maintained, corrosion likes to form at the base of the lugs and because the lugs are already dealing with pressures beyond what they were initially designed for, the lugs will snap off if corrosion is allowed to undermine their strength much (a carbine can actually run with several missing lugs).
However, the easiest way to address this problem is just to move the location of the gas port further forward. The location of the carbine gas port is a result of the original 10.5" barrel of the Colt Commando. With a 14.5" or 16" barrel, there is no real reason to have the gas port in the same location. Yoiu can move the gas port forward 2" forward on a 16" barrel and you reduce the gas pressure at the port and increase the time it takes for gas to travel back to the carrier and begin to unlock the bolt. These gas systems are called "midlengths". As a bonus, you get a better sight radius (helps accuracy with irons), softer recoil impulse, and more of the barrel is covered by handguards (helps protect you from burns when the barrel gets toasty)
I really like the midlengths and have converted all of my carbine gas systems to mids; but you woud be perfectly well equipped with a carbine length system. There are documented instances of 16" barrels with carbine gas systems running for thousands of rounds with no cleaning or maintenance. The carbine gas system isn't as rugged as the others; but it is still more rugged than 90% of the world will ever need. The link 1911user gave shows the difference between the carbine and the midlength.
Was the 16" barrel an HBAR (Heavy Barrel) or M4? If an HBAR, it weighs 0.2lbs more than the 20" Government Profile barrel and would give you a good idea of what that barrel would handle like.
The one you linked to has a 16" M4 barrel. It is similar to the Government Profile in that it is light under the handguards and heavy in front of the sight base (except for the grenade launcher cutout). The 16" M4 weighs about 2.2lbs. The other rifle you mention is a 16" HBAR. It has a thicker profile under the handguards and the barrel forward of the front sight base is the same thickness as the M4; but without the cutout. That barrel will weigh about 2.7lbs.
Do the Bushmaster rifles come with mid length systems? Or is that like an aftermarket modification you have to do?
I’m not sure which it was, I forgot to ask. They look exactly the same to me. The gun store is right near my house though so I can swing by there tomorrow and find out.
So is the only difference between these two rifles the barrel weight?
New Bushmaster 16in Carbine with Bird Cage Flash Suppressor
New Bushmaster M4 Type 16in Carbine with Bird Cage Flash Suppressor
Superlite: http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/bcwa3f16sl.asp
Do not see any factory rifles with the A2 profile 20" barrel.
A mid-length gas system requires a different barrel, and all the other stuff that comes with it. You would need to purchase a different brand than Bushmaster, or get the parts later and change the barrel yourself.
Keep in mind that whatever configuration you end up with, you can always change it later if you want something different.
Do not see any factory rifles with the A2 profile 20" barrel.
A mid-length gas system requires a different barrel, and all the other stuff that comes with it. You would need to purchase a different brand than Bushmaster, or get the parts later and change the barrel yourself.
Keep in mind that whatever configuration you end up with, you can always change it later if you want something different.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Alex45ACP said:
Bushmaster doesn't manufacture a midlength barrel right now. Rock River Arms, Armalite, Cav Arms, CMMG, Sabre Defence, ADCO, and MSTN all offer midlength systems now though. You can't really do it aftermarket since once the gas port is drilled in the barrel, you're done.
That's the most noticeable difference. The HBAR may be a little more rigid and take heat a tiny bit better but it is a pretty small difference. I ran a 16" HBAR for years and while it was a good barrel, I didn't notice any significant edge over the lighter M4 barrel.
sully
Member
Simplicity is the way to go. For the circumstances you describe that you wish the rifle for you need reliabiity, ease of use, and accuracy. For reliability I recommend a chrome lined barrel and beefed up extraction system. For ease of use and accuracy I recommend a long sight radius, as a longer sight radius makes it easier to be accurate. I would also suggest an iron sight in a same plane aperture, as this would give you a close quarter and longer distance sight that are bored on the same plane so there is no change in the zero between them. The barrel would be best suited in a 1/9 twist as it will accomodate the widest array of ammuntion, including the most common one that you will find and shoot which would be the .55gr-fmj. My recommendation of the barrel configuration would be something like our SLR15 Commander, the Bushmaster Dissipator, or Olympic Arms Eliminator, as they offer a longer sight radius in a 16" barrel.
Once you have your rifle then seek out some high quality training that will teach you not only how to shoot and manipulate the rifle, but teach you specifically about maintenance issues to ease your mind on the reliability issues.
Stay Safe & CY6,
Greg Sullivan "Sully"
Chief Instructor
http://www.SLR15.com
http://www.TheDefensiveEdge.com
Once you have your rifle then seek out some high quality training that will teach you not only how to shoot and manipulate the rifle, but teach you specifically about maintenance issues to ease your mind on the reliability issues.
Stay Safe & CY6,
Greg Sullivan "Sully"
Chief Instructor
http://www.SLR15.com
http://www.TheDefensiveEdge.com
Bartholomew Roberts said:
Ahh now I understand what you mean.
So is there a model that comes with a mid length system like that already configured? That's probably the model I would want to buy if I was going with the 16" barrel, right?
Sorry for all the questions. There is so much info on these rifles it's mind boggling and reading AR15.com just confuses me further.
demusn1979
Member
Oh yeah thats funny from someone who heard it from someone!Alex45ACP said:
Fooey!
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
There are many different models that come with a midlength system already configured. Personally, I think that moving the gas port forward is a smart idea and if someone wanted a 16" AR15; but didn't want to do a bunch of research on it, that is what I would recommend.
Having said that, you should go with what YOU want. If you've got an itch for a particular model or like a particular feature a lot, then get that model. The great thing about AR15s is they are easy to modify and there are a ton of parts to do it. Worst case scenario is that you sell off the old parts you don't care for and add new ones that suit your needs.
There are so many features and so many quality places to buy AR15s now that the best way to do it is usually to make a list of the features you want that are "must-haves" and the features you want that are "nice-to-haves" and then buy from whichever manufacturer has those features on a rifle. Usually just narrowing it down to a certain set of features will also narrow it down to 2-3 manufacturers.
P.S. I don't know what part of Florida you are in; but Florida has a large and active AR15 community. Here is a link to the Florida Hometown Forums on AR15.com
http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=8&f=10
Chances are you can find people there who have one or two of every configuration you might conceivably want to try and they are usually pretty good about helping people sort things out. If you are near Jacksonville, there is a gun shop there that has some of the most knowledgable AR15 people around.
demusn1979
Member
Also...floridashootersnetwork.com Much to learn!
Zak Smith
Member
16" with midlength gas, unless you have a good reason to go longer.
That said, my favorite upper is a 17" MSTN with rifle gas.
That said, my favorite upper is a 17" MSTN with rifle gas.
Dr_Pain
Member
GoRon said:
Is this a recommendation for buying the two, because I need to print this out and give it to my wife
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
My primary AR-15 is one of Colt Defense manufactuer, with a 16"
barrel and a detachable carry handle. Its known as a Match
Target Competition II model, with a collaspsible stock. I have a
Calvary Arms mount, mounted too the carry handle with a new
Bushnell HOLO-sight for really quick acquisition of targets. All
for under $1K~!
barrel and a detachable carry handle. Its known as a Match
Target Competition II model, with a collaspsible stock. I have a
Calvary Arms mount, mounted too the carry handle with a new
Bushnell HOLO-sight for really quick acquisition of targets. All
for under $1K~!
Too Many Choices!?
Member
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2005
- Messages
- 763
Alex, Alex, Alex, you drank the kool-aid didn't you?
The fact that you still consider buying an AR-15 at all, tells me you didn't drink alot atleast. I have said it before, and I will say it again(of this I am sure
), a properly built AR-15 WILL shoot more rounds than you can comfortably carry, before Carbon Fouling chokes it.. A 500 round day would not choke my M4 ,and no I didn't clean it when I got home
. What have we learned from this ckass, don't drink the kool-aid, unless it's grape,mmmmm..
Alex45ACP said:
The fact that you still consider buying an AR-15 at all, tells me you didn't drink alot atleast. I have said it before, and I will say it again(of this I am sure
), a properly built AR-15 WILL shoot more rounds than you can comfortably carry, before Carbon Fouling chokes it.. A 500 round day would not choke my M4 ,and no I didn't clean it when I got home. What have we learned from this ckass, don't drink the kool-aid, unless it's grape,mmmmm..
Beren
Moderator Emeritus
If it's not meant for home defense, go with 20". Better velocity, a little quieter, etc.
http://bravocompanyusa.com/Standard20inchRifleUppers.html
The first offering is a really nice upper. I may buy one myself when funds permit.
http://bravocompanyusa.com/Standard20inchRifleUppers.html
The first offering is a really nice upper. I may buy one myself when funds permit.
- Status
