What is an appropriate hardness for a lead bullet to be fired in a 1884 Trapdoor rifle? A few posters in my other thread recommended that I stay away from jacketed bullets. Missouri Bullet Co has a 405 gr. coated bullet (0.459 diameter) that is Brinell 18. Is that an okay bullet to fire in a trapdoor rifle? Is it also okay for deer (I really want to take a deer with this rifle before my eyes go bad)?
What Brinell hardness for Trapdoor bullets?
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Yes. And as I stated earlier on your other post it is recommend that you use black powder not smokeless powder as your rifle may not handle the pressures of smokeless.
Thanks for the reply. I know my father has fired at least several, perhaps a couple dozen, rounds loaded with smokeless powder. Is it really that much of a risk to use an appropriate smokeless powder? Several posters in another thread recommended Accurate 5744. I see that according to Western, a max charge of 27 grains generated only 16k psi (which I think is 22k CUP). I also have H4895. Hodgdon shows a starting charge of 40 grains yielding 14.9k CUP (which I think is 4.6k psi).
Charlie98
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As long as the bullet is correct for the bore, 18BHN won't be a problem... before ordering up a bunch of them you might slug the bore, first, just to make sure.
I don't really know the downsides to using smokeless in a Trapdoor, there is 'Trapdoor' loads and data, so I don't see why not... unless there is something I'm missing. AA5744 is probably the best powder you can use in your particular application, although I would recommend IMR4198 if you can't get 5744.
I don't really know the downsides to using smokeless in a Trapdoor, there is 'Trapdoor' loads and data, so I don't see why not... unless there is something I'm missing. AA5744 is probably the best powder you can use in your particular application, although I would recommend IMR4198 if you can't get 5744.
.455_Hunter
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I have less concern with using appropriate smokeless load in a good condition Trapdoor than in an original BP revolver. The Trapdoor action is supposedly "weak", but has vastly more meat than a Colt SAA or other period revolver cylinder.
brewer12345
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Fit matters more than hardness. That said, I would prefer maybe 12 BHN or less. If 18 is all you can get, so be it.
If you can get it or have it, I would try Trail Boss in your trap door.
If you can get it or have it, I would try Trail Boss in your trap door.
AJC1
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I would see if you could find a soft bullet 10 ish and a hollow base for a better seal. Might not be able to find them soft but if you have a local range where people are shooting BP they are likely to be shooting much softer bullets. I have no idea of your friends or resources but casting your own is very popular in this caliber. I'm shooting a 385 but at lever action levels.
brewer12345
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You could ask if anyone has some to spare over on the cast boolits forum.
My concerns were based only on the information you posted at the beginning. Information was very vague and you did say it was a family heirloom indicating to me the rifle is very old. Metallurgy in those times were not as improved as in modern times. I rather err towards safety when not sure. An expert gunsmith would know best.
We can talk all about what we think can/has been done with this original trapdoor
-- 'doesn't mean it should have been done, or should be done again.
This is what you want in a bullet:
https://www.buffaloarms.com/460-405...lead-bullets-20-1-spg-lube-box-of-50-460405hb
...and you want to limit it to black powder.*
* a BP-loaded 405/45-70 will kill anything on this continent deader than a doornail
-- 'doesn't mean it should have been done, or should be done again.
This is what you want in a bullet:
https://www.buffaloarms.com/460-405...lead-bullets-20-1-spg-lube-box-of-50-460405hb
...and you want to limit it to black powder.*
* a BP-loaded 405/45-70 will kill anything on this continent deader than a doornail
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Charlie98
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That's kind of my thought as well... at least have it looked at by a good gunsmith familiar with vintage guns. Again, I don't understand why an appropriate smokeless powder can't be used... it eliminates the complexity of BP, and immediate need to clean everything.
The problem is the steel used to make guns before the advent of smokeless powder. Most of it was not strong enough to take the fast rise time of the smokeless burn but totally capable of the slow, long burning rate of Black Powder. Once Smokeless powder was well entrenched in the gun industry, the quality of the steel went up. The turning point was somewhere around 1900. Of course, every manufacturer of that era had a different point where they upgraded to smokless powder steels and research is necessary to know what is right for your vintage firearm. (Reply copied from another source, but he explains it better.).
Also there are some smokeless powders that can be used on vintage arms like Trail boss for example and the powder he stated 5744 as I use it on my Sharps but my rifle is a modern replica. I don’t know if the OP is an experienced reloader or not and loads should be worked up slowly so as not to exceed pressures. I’ve done it my self slowly with smokeless where I chronograph every shot to ensure velocities do not exceed 1600 FPS. I also use fillers to load up the cartridge like cream of wheat because there is a lot of empty space in the cartridge that could cause a rise in pressure because the primer flash could go over the powder and ignite it from the front which could be catastrophic.
Also there are some smokeless powders that can be used on vintage arms like Trail boss for example and the powder he stated 5744 as I use it on my Sharps but my rifle is a modern replica. I don’t know if the OP is an experienced reloader or not and loads should be worked up slowly so as not to exceed pressures. I’ve done it my self slowly with smokeless where I chronograph every shot to ensure velocities do not exceed 1600 FPS. I also use fillers to load up the cartridge like cream of wheat because there is a lot of empty space in the cartridge that could cause a rise in pressure because the primer flash could go over the powder and ignite it from the front which could be catastrophic.
Charlie98
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No, I see where you are coming from. I'm not a big fan of TB or Unique in something like the .45-70 simply because of the void in the case... that's why I like something like AA5744 or IMR4198. There is plenty of data out there to start with, and the relative risk is low, even for a beginning or intermediate reloader.
I would also say 1600fps with a 405grn bullet in the .45-70 is way too fast, based on my own experience. Hodgdon online data (and others...) gives a max load of 32grn IMR4198 and a cast 405grn bullet, at 1462fps... which is, IMHO, the upper end of Trapdoor data. Accurate data for AA5744 is similar. Again, this is my opinion based on my actual experience.
I think we do agree that the first step would be to have the firearm inspected to ensure it's serviceability...
TrailBoss is an absolute no-no for pre-modern steel forearms,
It has an extremely fast risetime hammer effect.
5744 is better, but not much where true "old" steel is involved.
BP is not complex.
- For the OP's purposes fill the case to the bottom of the bullet, vibrate it a little to settle it more, fill to the bottom of the bullet again (doesn't have to be precise)
- Pour it out and weigh it. That's your base load forevermore w/ that bullet.
- At the same time you order the soft bullets, get a bag of these from the same place
https://www.buffaloarms.com/reloadi...ble-fiber-walters-wads-bags-of-1000-wal463030
- Use a large pistol primer
- Pour the powder in/vibrate down
- Place a Veg Card over the powder and seat the bullet firmly to hard contact.
You're done.
CLEANING:
- When home, pour hot soapy water down the barrel from the breech
- One soapy water wet patch (maybe two)
- Patch dry
- Oil Patch
You're done.
(In fact loading/shooting/cleaning BPCR is easier than smokeless -- things literally wash out)
You don't want it, need it, or attain it in a trap door. Period
1,250 is standard... and again will kill anything on this continent -- point blank aim out to 125 yards (your ethical trapdoor/iron sight limit anyway)
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Thanks for all of the replies. I already have 2 lbs of Accurate 5744 on the way. My plan was to find the lightest load (of course following Western's starting load data) that produced acceptable accuracy. Acceptable accuracy doesn't have to be that great; where I hunt, nearly all shots are within 100 yards and the large majority are within 80 yards.
The lead bullets you linked to look interesting, but they don't list a hardness. Several posters are recommending relatively soft bullets. I guess I'll call and ask Buffalo Arms.
My reluctance to use black powder stems from a few issues: I know next to nothing about it; I wouldn't use it for anything but this rifle; I do not like having to clean a rifle immediately after shooting it (having to do so will make shooting it a rare occasion); I worry about getting water on the old wood. I have an inline ML, but I shoot 777 pellets, not BP. I rarely hunt with it anymore because it is such a hassle having to clean it on the rifle's schedule rather than mine. Don't want to sound like a whiner, but two working parents and 3 kids means that when I get home from hunting or the range I usually have a lot of other responsibilities that need attention. Consequently, the ML comes out only when there is little or no venison in the freezer by the time the late ML season starts.
That said, I'm willing to try BP for this application. Buffalo Arms has plenty of black powder in stock, but will only ship a minimum of 5lbs, which I don't need. Powder Valley has Goex 1F, 2F, 3F, and 4F in stock. Which is best for this application? Can you suggest a good reference book for loading for the trapdoor?
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20-1 is BN 8 or slightly less (perfect for what you want)
Don't be scared of just pouring soapy water down the barrel from the breech, or even getting a bit on the wood (just don't soak it)
I'm still shooting an original 1863 Springfield -- no big deal)
Don't be scared of just pouring soapy water down the barrel from the breech, or even getting a bit on the wood (just don't soak it)
I'm still shooting an original 1863 Springfield -- no big deal)
Stubert
Member
How about replica B/P? Available anywhere. Use a magnum primer. Dead soft lead. Lee makes a mold for that rifle, it is #90268, a hollow base .459 diam. 405 grain bullet.
DocRock
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If using BP or subs, pure lead BHN6 is ideal. With precise sizing, one can get away with as much as BHN10, but softer is better. Size bullets based on slugging the bore. With a Trapdoor, you could need as much as .461
The 1600 FPS I mentioned was for my modern Pedersoli Sharps and all that mentioned not needed are correct.
As has been mentioned hot soapy water is how many bp firearms are cleaned. I would also like to add that you can you moose milk as it is called a combination of Ballistol and water . Ballistol will clean and lubricate and can literally be used in can type of material. You won’t be disappointed with Ballistol you can even used it in your rifle stock.
When it comes to black powder you should know that black powder is measured by volume not weight. They do sell accessories to measure this and there are work arounds and tips how to do this without black powder measures.
As has been mentioned hot soapy water is how many bp firearms are cleaned. I would also like to add that you can you moose milk as it is called a combination of Ballistol and water . Ballistol will clean and lubricate and can literally be used in can type of material. You won’t be disappointed with Ballistol you can even used it in your rifle stock.
When it comes to black powder you should know that black powder is measured by volume not weight. They do sell accessories to measure this and there are work arounds and tips how to do this without black powder measures.
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To avoid confusion, real BP is measured by weight.
You may have volumetric measures (tubes) that are marked 50, 60, 70 (etc, etc), but those are only approximations -- and the actual weight varies by grain size and manufacturers.
When dealing with BP substitutes, however, use those volumetric tubes as actual substitute weight can be all over the map
You may have volumetric measures (tubes) that are marked 50, 60, 70 (etc, etc), but those are only approximations -- and the actual weight varies by grain size and manufacturers.
When dealing with BP substitutes, however, use those volumetric tubes as actual substitute weight can be all over the map
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