Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
TK, the afore mentioned M70 and the CZ series seem to be the best of the bunch based on value/cost. IME, the Bell and Carlson stocks do very well at recoil reduction.
What do think about 375 HH Mag
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Thank you, Al!
I already thought you guys prefer CZ and M70s. What do you think about Ruger's M77 Magnum Express or No. 1?
I've already mentioned this before, but the DG rifles of my dreams are Dakota 76s. They're looking so beautifully elegant. But they're damn expensive, too. Anyone out there owning one?
Thanks.
I already thought you guys prefer CZ and M70s. What do you think about Ruger's M77 Magnum Express or No. 1?
I've already mentioned this before, but the DG rifles of my dreams are Dakota 76s. They're looking so beautifully elegant. But they're damn expensive, too. Anyone out there owning one?
Thanks.
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TK 73 You write:
"from your posts in the past I know that your personal .375 H&H is a Winchester 70 SS featuring CRF. Do you have any suggestions on an appropriate rifle, especially on the rifle stock that makes the recoil endurable?
Thanks a lot."
TK 73,
First of all let me start off by restating that the recoil of a .375H&H is really fairly mild. With that in mind you can get away with some pretty sloppy stock design on a .375H&H.
But this is my opinon on the subject. From the factory the absolute worst stock may well be the plastic one that comes with the M-70 SS. I changed mine out to a McMillian. However the plastic stock can be made useable by installing a recoil pad and a cheek eze pad over the top of the stock.
The other thing to consider is this While the basic design of the M-70 is without a doubt the most reliable and rugged on the market (of course that goes for a the Dakota too as it is exactley the same design only manufatured to much higher standards). The quality control at USRAC who build winchester rifles is absolute CRAP. The quality of model 70's has gone to hell in the last 5 years. I'd stay away from them unless you've got a really good gun smith to iron out your problems. It is almost standard to find the scope holes drilled crooked front to rear on the recievers,the barrels are rough and they've gone to a non captured plastice magazine follower that MUST be changed to a steel captured model if you are to actually use this rifle for DG hunting. Not a big deal if you have some one who can deal with it. But a pain in the rear if you don't.
You shouldn't have any of these problems with the super grade M-70 or the African models.
The CZ is a great buy for the money. I don't particuarly like them as the fit and finish is ROUGH. Not to mention they've gone to a trigger block vs a sear block safety which makes them very dangerous to use in the tall grass. If I had one I'd have to do two things immediatley. First the safety can be changed to M-70 sear block style for about $300.00 and the other thing that needs to be fixed is the stock. CZ stocks are infamous for cracking around the action and down the pistol grip. I'd put an english style laminate on it.
The Ruger M-77...
Probably one of the nicest shooting .375's on the market. A bit heavy for my tastes but that is one of the factors that make it so nice to shoot. The M-77 magnum model is also quite elegant in shape and form. It is very reminisant of the express rifles of old.
And that is where my praise of the m-77 stops. As far as function this rifle has some problems. They tend to bind when the bolt is operated with vigor. The action parts are cast not milled and I've broken the safety "wing" off of an M-77 in .458Lott with fairly minimal effort given the circumstances. And the final kicker on the M-77 is the trigger mechanism. It is not what I will use on a DG gun. Unlike the model 70 style which is nearly bomb proof the M-77 is fully housed and one little speck of dirt can shut you down right now! I'm just not warm and fuzzy on this rifle.
This is what I use and recomend.
If you want elegant looks function and reliability. Then save your sheckles and buy a dakota 76 or some other high quality mauser style rifle.
Both of my turn bolt DG guns started life as stainless .375's. One is still a .375H&H with the following modifications.
Restocked with a McMillian
Barrel removed trued to the action, cut, crowned, fluted, Lapped, blued and reinstalled.
Action tuned and smoothed.
Trigger tuned cut and polished.
Scope rings and bases lapped.
My other bolt gun is a now a .458Lott all of the same was done to it but the barrel of course is now a .458 diameter and it has a set of ghost ring sights on it installed by Ashley Emerson himself.
In either case you are not to far from just buying a Dakota in the first place. I like my stainless synthetic guns because I spend alot of time hunting with them in Alaska and some very swampy spots in Africa. Other wise I'd have a Dakota trun bolt. I like simple rugged and funtional even my double is as plain and simple as you can find.
I hope this helps
Greg (H&Hhunter)
"from your posts in the past I know that your personal .375 H&H is a Winchester 70 SS featuring CRF. Do you have any suggestions on an appropriate rifle, especially on the rifle stock that makes the recoil endurable?
Thanks a lot."
TK 73,
First of all let me start off by restating that the recoil of a .375H&H is really fairly mild. With that in mind you can get away with some pretty sloppy stock design on a .375H&H.
But this is my opinon on the subject. From the factory the absolute worst stock may well be the plastic one that comes with the M-70 SS. I changed mine out to a McMillian. However the plastic stock can be made useable by installing a recoil pad and a cheek eze pad over the top of the stock.
The other thing to consider is this While the basic design of the M-70 is without a doubt the most reliable and rugged on the market (of course that goes for a the Dakota too as it is exactley the same design only manufatured to much higher standards). The quality control at USRAC who build winchester rifles is absolute CRAP. The quality of model 70's has gone to hell in the last 5 years. I'd stay away from them unless you've got a really good gun smith to iron out your problems. It is almost standard to find the scope holes drilled crooked front to rear on the recievers,the barrels are rough and they've gone to a non captured plastice magazine follower that MUST be changed to a steel captured model if you are to actually use this rifle for DG hunting. Not a big deal if you have some one who can deal with it. But a pain in the rear if you don't.
You shouldn't have any of these problems with the super grade M-70 or the African models.
The CZ is a great buy for the money. I don't particuarly like them as the fit and finish is ROUGH. Not to mention they've gone to a trigger block vs a sear block safety which makes them very dangerous to use in the tall grass. If I had one I'd have to do two things immediatley. First the safety can be changed to M-70 sear block style for about $300.00 and the other thing that needs to be fixed is the stock. CZ stocks are infamous for cracking around the action and down the pistol grip. I'd put an english style laminate on it.
The Ruger M-77...
Probably one of the nicest shooting .375's on the market. A bit heavy for my tastes but that is one of the factors that make it so nice to shoot. The M-77 magnum model is also quite elegant in shape and form. It is very reminisant of the express rifles of old.
And that is where my praise of the m-77 stops. As far as function this rifle has some problems. They tend to bind when the bolt is operated with vigor. The action parts are cast not milled and I've broken the safety "wing" off of an M-77 in .458Lott with fairly minimal effort given the circumstances. And the final kicker on the M-77 is the trigger mechanism. It is not what I will use on a DG gun. Unlike the model 70 style which is nearly bomb proof the M-77 is fully housed and one little speck of dirt can shut you down right now! I'm just not warm and fuzzy on this rifle.
This is what I use and recomend.
If you want elegant looks function and reliability. Then save your sheckles and buy a dakota 76 or some other high quality mauser style rifle.
Both of my turn bolt DG guns started life as stainless .375's. One is still a .375H&H with the following modifications.
Restocked with a McMillian
Barrel removed trued to the action, cut, crowned, fluted, Lapped, blued and reinstalled.
Action tuned and smoothed.
Trigger tuned cut and polished.
Scope rings and bases lapped.
My other bolt gun is a now a .458Lott all of the same was done to it but the barrel of course is now a .458 diameter and it has a set of ghost ring sights on it installed by Ashley Emerson himself.
In either case you are not to far from just buying a Dakota in the first place. I like my stainless synthetic guns because I spend alot of time hunting with them in Alaska and some very swampy spots in Africa. Other wise I'd have a Dakota trun bolt. I like simple rugged and funtional even my double is as plain and simple as you can find.
I hope this helps
Greg (H&Hhunter)
WOW! Very valuable information!
Dear Greg:
Thanks a lot for sharing your experience and comprehensive information. Frankly spoken, I have read a lot about DG rifles in gun magazines in the past couple of weeks, but your comprehensive report on the technical aspects of currently produced rifles was the most valuable and honest. I find it rather refreshing and tremendous helpful that you're not trying to "hide" the flaws/deficiencies that many factory rifles might have. Thank you so very much.
I think I'll better save up in order to get a Dakota 76 or a custom Mauser rifle.
Kind Regards,
Thilo
Dear Greg:
Thanks a lot for sharing your experience and comprehensive information. Frankly spoken, I have read a lot about DG rifles in gun magazines in the past couple of weeks, but your comprehensive report on the technical aspects of currently produced rifles was the most valuable and honest. I find it rather refreshing and tremendous helpful that you're not trying to "hide" the flaws/deficiencies that many factory rifles might have. Thank you so very much.
I think I'll better save up in order to get a Dakota 76 or a custom Mauser rifle.
Kind Regards,
Thilo
ThreadKiller
Member
And they make an excellent prairie dog gun! 
The 375 is as classic as it gets. It'll do whatever you ask of it.
Tim
The 375 is as classic as it gets. It'll do whatever you ask of it. Tim
Guys, what do you think about the following statement...
...made by the good Col. Jeff Cooper in one of his past commentaries along the lines "The .375 H&H is too much gun for 90 % and too little gun for the remaining 10 % of big game hunting" ?
...made by the good Col. Jeff Cooper in one of his past commentaries along the lines "The .375 H&H is too much gun for 90 % and too little gun for the remaining 10 % of big game hunting" ?
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Well i respect Jeff Cooper and he has a right to his opinon. But could you please explain what to much gun is? Can you kill something to dead? In my opinon to much gun is one that bruises and destroys meat like a hot .300 mag.
Jeff like to shoot a .350 rem mag and a .460G&A on safari. The .350 is pretty close to a .375H&H as far as recoil and down range performance. But the problem with that duo is this. If his .460 takes a powder and is inop he can't leagaly use his .350 to hunt dangerous game.
I use a .470NE or a .458Lott and a .375H&H if my heavy goes south I'm still in high cotton because my .375 is leagal, capable and ready to go..
You be the judge.
I think Jeff is all wet on this one.
Jeff like to shoot a .350 rem mag and a .460G&A on safari. The .350 is pretty close to a .375H&H as far as recoil and down range performance. But the problem with that duo is this. If his .460 takes a powder and is inop he can't leagaly use his .350 to hunt dangerous game.
I use a .470NE or a .458Lott and a .375H&H if my heavy goes south I'm still in high cotton because my .375 is leagal, capable and ready to go..
You be the judge.
I think Jeff is all wet on this one.
Dear H&Hhunter:
Nowadays, the good Colonel rather seems to recommend the .376 Steyr round with similar ballistics like the old .350 Rem. Mag. or .375 H&H, in compact & comparable lightweight Steyr "Dragoon" bolt-action rifles for all-around African use.
Personally, I agree with you and rather take the classic .375 H&H Mag. instead. First of all, because ammunition can be found easily and second, it's legal to be used for hunting dangerous game in most African countries, like you said.
Thanks for your comments. They're always welcome.
Nowadays, the good Colonel rather seems to recommend the .376 Steyr round with similar ballistics like the old .350 Rem. Mag. or .375 H&H, in compact & comparable lightweight Steyr "Dragoon" bolt-action rifles for all-around African use.
Personally, I agree with you and rather take the classic .375 H&H Mag. instead. First of all, because ammunition can be found easily and second, it's legal to be used for hunting dangerous game in most African countries, like you said.
Thanks for your comments. They're always welcome.
H&Hhunter, please forgive me but I must bother you once again, ...
...because I've the opportunity to get a real nice, new Winchester M70 Classic Safari Express, controlled round feed of course, in cal. .375 H&H Mag.
I am fully aware that you can't compare it to a true custom gun like the Dakota 76. The dealer who has above mentioned gun in stock also happens to import Dakota 76 on special order. I've already asked him what his opinion on above mentioned M70-specimen is and he told me that this is a fine rifle indeed (because I've remembered the weaknesses of Winchesters M70 that you have addressed earlier).
When asking the dealer about Dakota 76 rifles he quickly replied that this is "a different world entirely". He has no Dakota 76 rifles in stock because the suggested retail price is about four to five times as much as the Winchester (that's roughly US-$ 5,000.00 to 6,000 for the basic 76 "Safari"- and "African"-Grade) and he acquires them only on basis of firm customers orders. Delivery time of a Dakota would take about six months at least.
For a guy inexperienced in heavy rifles, don't you think it's more sensible to get this particular Winchester 70 in .375 H&H at much more affordable price first and acquire a custom rifle like the Dakota 76 in a heavier chambering (.458 Lott or .416 Rigby are on my mind) later after some experience has been gained?
Again, I don't plan on actually going to hunt Africa in the foreseeable future, but as sure as hell, I want to have one or two appropriate (= no junk) DG rifles at my disposal if such thoughts would cross my mind .
I am looking forward reading your opinion.
Thilo
...because I've the opportunity to get a real nice, new Winchester M70 Classic Safari Express, controlled round feed of course, in cal. .375 H&H Mag.
I am fully aware that you can't compare it to a true custom gun like the Dakota 76. The dealer who has above mentioned gun in stock also happens to import Dakota 76 on special order. I've already asked him what his opinion on above mentioned M70-specimen is and he told me that this is a fine rifle indeed (because I've remembered the weaknesses of Winchesters M70 that you have addressed earlier).
When asking the dealer about Dakota 76 rifles he quickly replied that this is "a different world entirely". He has no Dakota 76 rifles in stock because the suggested retail price is about four to five times as much as the Winchester (that's roughly US-$ 5,000.00 to 6,000 for the basic 76 "Safari"- and "African"-Grade) and he acquires them only on basis of firm customers orders. Delivery time of a Dakota would take about six months at least.
For a guy inexperienced in heavy rifles, don't you think it's more sensible to get this particular Winchester 70 in .375 H&H at much more affordable price first and acquire a custom rifle like the Dakota 76 in a heavier chambering (.458 Lott or .416 Rigby are on my mind) later after some experience has been gained?
Again, I don't plan on actually going to hunt Africa in the foreseeable future, but as sure as hell, I want to have one or two appropriate (= no junk) DG rifles at my disposal if such thoughts would cross my mind
.I am looking forward reading your opinion.
Thilo
Gordon
Member
I have a very light Brown Precision Rem 700 in .375 with a Gentry Brake and Deccellerator pad. It is very manageable for hunting ,recoil wise (where you don 'feel' recoil anyway) and it shoots almost 1/2" MOA with some loads.It has a Leupold 1.5-6X VariX 3 with heavy duplex in Warne mounts. I use the Barnes X bullet 260 grains at 2850fps for all game thru elk. I also have some Hawk Heavy Jacket copper clad 300 grainers which are loaded to 2500fps and I have taken Alaskan Bear with those. I also have an FN Magnum .375 stocked in very high grade Walnut in the classic style. Same scope and mounts. This gun is not quite as accurate, has a heavy 22" barrel (Pac -Nor) with no brake but weighs 9 pounds instead of 7 so it recoils similarly. I use the FN as a back up to the M700, which has never missed a lick, so the FN stays in it's case most of the time(Thank the Lord!). Now deer and down I use all sorts of things, same with pigs sheep and antelopes. But if it weighs over 500 pounds the .375 can handle it at ANY range.
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TK73,
The Safari express is generally built to higher standards than than the grade M-70's. Chances are better than even that the rifle you've mentioned is going to be a great rifle. If it has the plastic follower you can order a steel follower and captuirng spring from brownells for like $80.00 combined.
With regards to your post however I think that your idea of buying the M-70 in .375H&H now and saving for a M-76 at a later date in a heavier caliber is very sound. I recomend that you buy that Winchester.
The problems I've mentioned with the M-70's have been with the stainless ones in particular. A safari grade rifle should be manufactured to higher standards. At least that has been my observation in the past.
I basically have done what you've suggested above. I started out my DG rifle battery with an inexpensive rifle (realitively speaking) And worked my way up to a double gun.
The Safari express is generally built to higher standards than than the grade M-70's. Chances are better than even that the rifle you've mentioned is going to be a great rifle. If it has the plastic follower you can order a steel follower and captuirng spring from brownells for like $80.00 combined.
With regards to your post however I think that your idea of buying the M-70 in .375H&H now and saving for a M-76 at a later date in a heavier caliber is very sound. I recomend that you buy that Winchester.
The problems I've mentioned with the M-70's have been with the stainless ones in particular. A safari grade rifle should be manufactured to higher standards. At least that has been my observation in the past.
I basically have done what you've suggested above. I started out my DG rifle battery with an inexpensive rifle (realitively speaking) And worked my way up to a double gun.
I agree completely with H&H. I have used a 375 for years, bear and deer and it is a great caliber. I use a Sako carbine with a quarter rib. It is handy,a little noisy and always just right. I'd let him go for it. My son started shooting mine at 14.
Gordon
Member
" I use a Sako carbine with a quarter rib."
That sounds sexy! Does it have a full lentgh stock? BTW .455 Webleys are a blast. I'm down to 2; a #5 and a #6 (which has been converted to .45acp). I bought 10 boxes of Fiocchi awhile back for $150 in an auction. I have 7+ boxes left. I don't shoot the old girl enough to justify a mold and a set of dies. The #5 is 1915 and I usually shoot 3 or 4 cylinders when I shoot my 1916 DWM Luger a like amount (about once a year or two) . Both the .455 and the .375 will definetly keep the fuzzy wuzzies at bay!
That sounds sexy! Does it have a full lentgh stock? BTW .455 Webleys are a blast. I'm down to 2; a #5 and a #6 (which has been converted to .45acp). I bought 10 boxes of Fiocchi awhile back for $150 in an auction. I have 7+ boxes left. I don't shoot the old girl enough to justify a mold and a set of dies. The #5 is 1915 and I usually shoot 3 or 4 cylinders when I shoot my 1916 DWM Luger a like amount (about once a year or two) . Both the .455 and the .375 will definetly keep the fuzzy wuzzies at bay!
The 375 H&H is a great cartridge, but in factory fodder form just a tad heavy on a small whitetail. Will it do the job, I am sure it will, it is just unneccesarily heavy for the the job.
If you handload it wouldn't be hard to work up some reduced loads, that would ecellent though. I would look at using the 270gr bullets and dropping the velocity a couple hundred feet per second.
But make no mistake this is an excellent cartridge. Mine is an old ( 56-58)Model 70 Winchester that one of my boys will inherit.
If you handload it wouldn't be hard to work up some reduced loads, that would ecellent though. I would look at using the 270gr bullets and dropping the velocity a couple hundred feet per second.
But make no mistake this is an excellent cartridge. Mine is an old ( 56-58)Model 70 Winchester that one of my boys will inherit.
Yooper
Member
A 375 Model 70 will be my next rifle purchase, I've wanted one for years. My Hornady loading manual offers some reduced loads using 220-225 grain bullets at 375 Winchester performance levels for deer-size game.
I have to wonder about Col. Cooper's comment. Perhaps he can afford to own a rifle for each separate species of game on the planet, but I cannot. Some of us have to overlap a bit with our choices. My approach to this has been an investment in handloading equipment to control the velocity variable in the equation as well as the bullet weight. I can get by quite nicely with a minimum investment in firearms if I so choose.
I have to wonder about Col. Cooper's comment. Perhaps he can afford to own a rifle for each separate species of game on the planet, but I cannot. Some of us have to overlap a bit with our choices. My approach to this has been an investment in handloading equipment to control the velocity variable in the equation as well as the bullet weight. I can get by quite nicely with a minimum investment in firearms if I so choose.
I was hunting whitetail this afternoon with a friend who was toting his trusty 375H&H pre-64 model 70. He has absolute confidence in this gun, which has been to Africa more than once.
I would like to give you a postmortem report, but he missed the jackrabbit he fired upon. Both times.
Although I plan to stick with more pedestrian deer medicine, I do look forward to picking up a 375 in the future and look forward to using it on moose, if nothing more exotic.
I would like to give you a postmortem report, but he missed the jackrabbit he fired upon. Both times.
Although I plan to stick with more pedestrian deer medicine, I do look forward to picking up a 375 in the future and look forward to using it on moose, if nothing more exotic.
Dear Yooper:
actually, once in a while the good Col. Cooper makes a point against specialization in rifle calibers in his monthly commentaries. Judging from his writings, his opinion on the "big bottle" 7 mm, .30 and .338" magnum calibers and some others (like the Short Magnums) is that they are absolutely redundant (and more often than not pure marketing ploys for selling new rifles), stating that everything these "overbored" rounds can do, you can do with the .270, .30-06, .308 Win. or .375 at reasonable ranges.
Of course, he likes and has used the .350 Rem. Mag. (as H&Hhunter stated)for lion and other medium to large sized game. Nowadays, the ballistically similar .376 Steyr round seems to be his choice as an African all-around caliber, especially chambered for the short and lightweight Steyr "Dragoon" rifle (similar to the well-known Steyr "Scout" rifle; H&Hhunter, you carry one of those Scouts, right?). Personally, I don't see a lot of sense in the .376 Steyr as long as there's the grand old .375 Holland & Holland Magnum available, but I don't doubt the .376's capability for general African hunting.
I recall a statement in Col. Coopers commentaries that unless a rifleman hunts dangerous game like Cape buffalo, he actually doesn't need more than a good .30-06 and a .22 l.r. rifle.
actually, once in a while the good Col. Cooper makes a point against specialization in rifle calibers in his monthly commentaries. Judging from his writings, his opinion on the "big bottle" 7 mm, .30 and .338" magnum calibers and some others (like the Short Magnums) is that they are absolutely redundant (and more often than not pure marketing ploys for selling new rifles), stating that everything these "overbored" rounds can do, you can do with the .270, .30-06, .308 Win. or .375 at reasonable ranges.
Of course, he likes and has used the .350 Rem. Mag. (as H&Hhunter stated)for lion and other medium to large sized game. Nowadays, the ballistically similar .376 Steyr round seems to be his choice as an African all-around caliber, especially chambered for the short and lightweight Steyr "Dragoon" rifle (similar to the well-known Steyr "Scout" rifle; H&Hhunter, you carry one of those Scouts, right?). Personally, I don't see a lot of sense in the .376 Steyr as long as there's the grand old .375 Holland & Holland Magnum available, but I don't doubt the .376's capability for general African hunting.
I recall a statement in Col. Coopers commentaries that unless a rifleman hunts dangerous game like Cape buffalo, he actually doesn't need more than a good .30-06 and a .22 l.r. rifle.
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TK,
I've got a Scout in .308win. I have no use for the .376 as ammo availability is non-existant in Africa. The .375H&H is as common as dirt over there and ammo can be found anywhere. That's a big plus in my book.
I also can't understand Coopers logic in recomending the .376 but not the .375H&H. If the .375H&H is too much gun for 90% of the worlds game and not enough for 10%. Where does that leave it's near identical balistic twin, the .376?
Sounds suspiciously like marketing hype of a redundant round to me?
I've got a Scout in .308win. I have no use for the .376 as ammo availability is non-existant in Africa. The .375H&H is as common as dirt over there and ammo can be found anywhere. That's a big plus in my book.
I also can't understand Coopers logic in recomending the .376 but not the .375H&H. If the .375H&H is too much gun for 90% of the worlds game and not enough for 10%. Where does that leave it's near identical balistic twin, the .376?
Sounds suspiciously like marketing hype of a redundant round to me?
Dear H&Hhunter:
I agree, I thought along the same lines when reading Col. Cooper's comment on the usefulness of the .376 Steyr for Africa.
By the way, got a chance to look at the Winchester M70 Classic Safari Express in .375 H&H Mag. my dealer talked about today. It was a disappointment really. The cocking indicator of the firing pin was rusted so badly it actually is scared. The famous M70 three position safety is very stiff and once in a while it simply refuses to switch-on and -off. Handling such a gun in the field with dangerous game in front of the shooter can easily get you killed. The barrel wasn't free-floating (how good is the accuracy?). The rubber recoil pad wasn't fitted correctly. All in all, a terrible specimen indeed and much too expensive at that.
I have to look at another one.
I've called around a little bit and one wholesaler told me that he has five M70 Classic Safari Express rifles CRF in cal. .416 Rem. left in stock (at a very reasonable price p. copy). I've told him that I am inexperienced with heavy rifles and I'd rather have a .375 in the beginning, especially with regard to easier and more widespread availability of ammunition. He responded jokingly that if I want them dead I'd better take the .416 Rem. over the .375. The increase in recoil in comparison to the .375 shouldn't be that great according to him and ammunition availability shouldn't be a problem either. Another dealer experienced in shooting Rem. 700 rifles confirmed that subjective experience about the .416's and .375's recoil. Right now, the price of the M70 in .416 is alluring (the dealer said: "With what you save you can buy yourself plenty of .416 ammunition) and he would be willing to select the best specimen he has in stock fo me .
Still, I know that the .375 is simply much more sensible and I intended to step up to a .416 Rigby (judging from the interior and exterior ballistics, the low-pressure .416 Rigby is a better round than the higher pressure .416 Rem. Mag.) or one of the bigger .458" later.
Another opinion by a hunter friend of mine is to simply get a current Sako M75 Hunter in .375 H&H Magnum as they're of higher quality. He's very opinionated, for I almost had an argument with him when I insisted on controlled-round-feed of a "real" DG rifle that the SAKO lacks...
The more I read and hear about this topic the more confused I get. It's no fun anymore, especially after this day's disappointment with that M70. :banghead:
Thilo
I agree, I thought along the same lines when reading Col. Cooper's comment on the usefulness of the .376 Steyr for Africa.
By the way, got a chance to look at the Winchester M70 Classic Safari Express in .375 H&H Mag. my dealer talked about today. It was a disappointment really. The cocking indicator of the firing pin was rusted so badly it actually is scared. The famous M70 three position safety is very stiff and once in a while it simply refuses to switch-on and -off. Handling such a gun in the field with dangerous game in front of the shooter can easily get you killed. The barrel wasn't free-floating (how good is the accuracy?). The rubber recoil pad wasn't fitted correctly. All in all, a terrible specimen indeed and much too expensive at that.
I have to look at another one. I've called around a little bit and one wholesaler told me that he has five M70 Classic Safari Express rifles CRF in cal. .416 Rem. left in stock (at a very reasonable price p. copy). I've told him that I am inexperienced with heavy rifles and I'd rather have a .375 in the beginning, especially with regard to easier and more widespread availability of ammunition. He responded jokingly that if I want them dead I'd better take the .416 Rem. over the .375. The increase in recoil in comparison to the .375 shouldn't be that great according to him and ammunition availability shouldn't be a problem either. Another dealer experienced in shooting Rem. 700 rifles confirmed that subjective experience about the .416's and .375's recoil. Right now, the price of the M70 in .416 is alluring (the dealer said: "With what you save you can buy yourself plenty of .416 ammunition) and he would be willing to select the best specimen he has in stock fo me
. Still, I know that the .375 is simply much more sensible and I intended to step up to a .416 Rigby (judging from the interior and exterior ballistics, the low-pressure .416 Rigby is a better round than the higher pressure .416 Rem. Mag.) or one of the bigger .458" later.
Another opinion by a hunter friend of mine is to simply get a current Sako M75 Hunter in .375 H&H Magnum as they're of higher quality. He's very opinionated, for I almost had an argument with him when I insisted on controlled-round-feed of a "real" DG rifle that the SAKO lacks...
The more I read and hear about this topic the more confused I get. It's no fun anymore, especially after this day's disappointment with that M70. :banghead:
Thilo
Bwana John
Member
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My .375 H&H is to heavy for the kind of deer hunting I like to do. My 7mm Mauser Mnt rifle is perfect for that. I do have a wimpy .375 load that pushes 235 grainers @ 1900 fps that uses SR 4759 powder.
Depending on where you live, you can usually buy a used Model 70 Winchester in 375 H&H for a pretty reasonable sum. I'm talking about a post 64 model. They are perfectly good and accurate and sport nice iron sights. The early ones have that idiotic pressed in checkering but that doesn't hurt the shooting. Later ones have a nice looking stock with real checkering. The most of them are like new as people do not shoot enough to hurt them. But there are lots of them around, mostly for Walter Mitty types, like yours truly.
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2003
- Messages
- 13,341
Tk,
I'm sorry to hear about that M-70. Unfortuantley I have also had bad experiences with USRAC lately.
I looked at a safari M-70 yesterday at a local store and it was quite nice. I don't have any idea how the quality control can vary so much from rifle to rifle but they definatley have a problem. I've written several letters to USRAC with regards to this problem and have never recived a reply.
If you look around you should be able to find a suitable M-70. As far as the .416 goes. Not a bad choice. It is a fine caliber. My take on it is this however if you need a heavy get a heavy. If you need a good medium bore the .375H&H is a bit more user friendly. With that being said however the recoil of a .416Rem is quite mangable in a well fit gun.
I like the .375H&H along with a good heavy. That is what I carry in Africa.
Not wanting to get a CRF vs Push feed argument started here because they are endless tales of my dog vs your dog. BUT the vast majority of serious in the know been there done that or professional doing it every day hunters use and recomend CRF rifles.
Yes there have been many DG animals shot with pushfeed rifles. Does that make them the best choice...NO it doesn't. I won't use a pushfeed rifle on DG period.
Just last spring a guide in AK was nearly killed by a grizz after he double fed his Sako 75 jamming it tighter than a drum while being charged by a bear.
We've got a guy on this sight who is always quick to correct me on the use of CRF rifles. He has killed several DG species and uses a pushfeed .375. He also has it topped with a 6X fixed power scope.....The difference between him and me is that I've been charged and nearly killed by a buffalo in the thick jesse. If I'd been using a 6X scoped rifle I would not be writing this.
There is a huge difference between snipping a buffalo at 40+ yards with a push feed varmint rifle and getting tangled up with a DG animal at contact range in the thick stuff. All of my rifles are set up for the worst case scenario. Because sometimes when hunting dangerous game, it actually is dangerous and things happen so fast you only have time to react. When it happens your equipment had better be the most reliable trust worthy piece that you can afford. Push feed rifles do not fit that catagory.
People tend to buy a rifle basded on looks or the advice of some gunstore clerk who has about as much experience in these matters as your average preschool teacher. They get home they shoot the rifle a bit and like it usually because it is the only one like it they've ever shot. Later when they find out that it isn't regarded as the best choice for its intended purpose (I.E. dangerous game hunting.) They become defensive and will argue against all logic, statistics and past history that the pushfeed rifle is in fact the tool that everyone should have used. They are basing this argument on their pride and to save face at having not bought the best equipment for the job logic and facts have nothing to do with it. These arguments should boil down to what you know, what you should know, past experience, history and basic common sense.
Has your friend with the Sako 75 ever hunted dangerous game? Has your friend with the Sako 75 ever drilled with his rifle in simulated field conditions trying to make that rifle fail? Has he ever tried to feed that rifle while violently shaking it? While upside down? While running over uneven ground? These are all things that can and will happen to you while hunting DG. These are things that have happened to me. I've reloaded on the run, I've stepped of into a hole and tumbled during a reload. These are things to consider.
Falling while stroking a bolt will more times than not either throw a round out or cause a jam in a pushfeed. One of my favorite tricks to convince a pushfeed shooter is this..I'll put him or her into a stress firing scenario say fire two shots reload and fire one shot at a target at close range under a short time constraint. I'll stand beside and just behind the shooter on their strong side. As they are stroking the bolt I'll reach up a firmly jab the rifle with my hand more often than not this enough to cause a missfeed in a PF rifle. How could this happen in the field you say? Have you ever seen how trackers and skinners will break like a covey of quail when the action starts? Think you may get rammed by a reatreating human while stroking your bolt. I say the chances are pretty good.
Other misnomers. You cannot single feed a CRF from the top. Wrong! A model 70 style claw is relieved at the rear allowing for flex and single top loading.
CRF rilfes are not as accurate as PF rifles. This my be true in bench rest shooting but in the hunting field it not even a consideration.
I feel rather strongly on this subject as you can probably tell. There will be others who tell you I'm all wet. But here is the crux of the situation. I won't use anything besides a CRF on DG I've never met a serious DG PH who will use a PF rifle. The only PF rifles I've seen in the field have either been on high fenced ranches in South Africa. Or they are being used by an apprentice who can't afford a proper rifle and will tell you so. That has been my REAL world experience.
Buy what you like. That is your choice and it is a personal one.
I'm sorry to hear about that M-70. Unfortuantley I have also had bad experiences with USRAC lately.
I looked at a safari M-70 yesterday at a local store and it was quite nice. I don't have any idea how the quality control can vary so much from rifle to rifle but they definatley have a problem. I've written several letters to USRAC with regards to this problem and have never recived a reply.
If you look around you should be able to find a suitable M-70. As far as the .416 goes. Not a bad choice. It is a fine caliber. My take on it is this however if you need a heavy get a heavy. If you need a good medium bore the .375H&H is a bit more user friendly. With that being said however the recoil of a .416Rem is quite mangable in a well fit gun.
I like the .375H&H along with a good heavy. That is what I carry in Africa.
Not wanting to get a CRF vs Push feed argument started here because they are endless tales of my dog vs your dog. BUT the vast majority of serious in the know been there done that or professional doing it every day hunters use and recomend CRF rifles.
Yes there have been many DG animals shot with pushfeed rifles. Does that make them the best choice...NO it doesn't. I won't use a pushfeed rifle on DG period.
Just last spring a guide in AK was nearly killed by a grizz after he double fed his Sako 75 jamming it tighter than a drum while being charged by a bear.
We've got a guy on this sight who is always quick to correct me on the use of CRF rifles. He has killed several DG species and uses a pushfeed .375. He also has it topped with a 6X fixed power scope.....The difference between him and me is that I've been charged and nearly killed by a buffalo in the thick jesse. If I'd been using a 6X scoped rifle I would not be writing this.
There is a huge difference between snipping a buffalo at 40+ yards with a push feed varmint rifle and getting tangled up with a DG animal at contact range in the thick stuff. All of my rifles are set up for the worst case scenario. Because sometimes when hunting dangerous game, it actually is dangerous and things happen so fast you only have time to react. When it happens your equipment had better be the most reliable trust worthy piece that you can afford. Push feed rifles do not fit that catagory.
People tend to buy a rifle basded on looks or the advice of some gunstore clerk who has about as much experience in these matters as your average preschool teacher. They get home they shoot the rifle a bit and like it usually because it is the only one like it they've ever shot. Later when they find out that it isn't regarded as the best choice for its intended purpose (I.E. dangerous game hunting.) They become defensive and will argue against all logic, statistics and past history that the pushfeed rifle is in fact the tool that everyone should have used. They are basing this argument on their pride and to save face at having not bought the best equipment for the job logic and facts have nothing to do with it. These arguments should boil down to what you know, what you should know, past experience, history and basic common sense.
Has your friend with the Sako 75 ever hunted dangerous game? Has your friend with the Sako 75 ever drilled with his rifle in simulated field conditions trying to make that rifle fail? Has he ever tried to feed that rifle while violently shaking it? While upside down? While running over uneven ground? These are all things that can and will happen to you while hunting DG. These are things that have happened to me. I've reloaded on the run, I've stepped of into a hole and tumbled during a reload. These are things to consider.
Falling while stroking a bolt will more times than not either throw a round out or cause a jam in a pushfeed. One of my favorite tricks to convince a pushfeed shooter is this..I'll put him or her into a stress firing scenario say fire two shots reload and fire one shot at a target at close range under a short time constraint. I'll stand beside and just behind the shooter on their strong side. As they are stroking the bolt I'll reach up a firmly jab the rifle with my hand more often than not this enough to cause a missfeed in a PF rifle. How could this happen in the field you say? Have you ever seen how trackers and skinners will break like a covey of quail when the action starts? Think you may get rammed by a reatreating human while stroking your bolt. I say the chances are pretty good.
Other misnomers. You cannot single feed a CRF from the top. Wrong! A model 70 style claw is relieved at the rear allowing for flex and single top loading.
CRF rilfes are not as accurate as PF rifles. This my be true in bench rest shooting but in the hunting field it not even a consideration.
I feel rather strongly on this subject as you can probably tell. There will be others who tell you I'm all wet. But here is the crux of the situation. I won't use anything besides a CRF on DG I've never met a serious DG PH who will use a PF rifle. The only PF rifles I've seen in the field have either been on high fenced ranches in South Africa. Or they are being used by an apprentice who can't afford a proper rifle and will tell you so. That has been my REAL world experience.
Buy what you like. That is your choice and it is a personal one.
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