What flavor of (un)Constitutional Carry do you have

[SharpDog]

I got this message from TFA. I already have a carry permit and so I was pretty much ignoring this issue in my state. However:

Tennessee's new "permitless carry" law, which some inaccurately refer to as "constitutional carry", does NOT eliminate the criminal charge in Tennessee for carrying a firearm with the intent to go armed. Consider these points:

• The new "permitless carry" is not true constitutional carry. True constitutional carry requires the repeal of an existing law that makes it a crime for anyone to carry a firearm with the "intent to go armed". The Governor's law does not do this.

• The new "permitless carry" law retained the statute that makes it a crime for law abiding individuals to carry a firearm for personal safety. See, TCA 39-17-1307(a).

• The new "permitless carry" law is only a qualified exception to the crime of carrying a handgun with the intent to go armed. TCA 39-17-1307(g)

• The new "permitless carry" law does not apply to everyone who can legally purchase or possess a handgun. It has at least 7 conditions that must be met in order to be eligible for the individual to rely on it as an exception to a criminal charge.

• The new "permitless carry" law creates "traps" that can result in those who rely on it being charged with crimes. For example, an individual who has a permit can carry in a public park, in a campground or on a greenway. However, someone relying on the "permitless carry" law would likely be committing a crime for going in those same places.

The Tennessee Firearms Association recommends that those who want to carry a handgun in Tennessee get the Tennessee enhanced handgun permit. That permit provides the broadest capacity to carry in Tennessee under current law, it provides the most options on how to carry in Tennessee, it provides defenses that are not available under the new "permitless carry" law and it provides the greatest degree of acceptance by other states if you travel.

The 'intent to go armed' part is particularly alarming to me.

https://tennesseefirearms.com/2021/...aw-and-recommends-getting-the-permit-instead/

 

[buck460XVR]

The 'intent to go armed' part is particularly alarming to me.

Maybe it's just me, but I thought the whole reason behind having a handgun on you, was because of your intent to go armed.

 

[12Bravo20]

We have constitutional carry here in Missouri and no permit is required. I still keep my state issued carry permit up to date and valid since it allows me more legal protection versus carrying without a permit. Plus I can carry in other states that recognize Missouri CCW permits.

 

[old lady new shooter]

We have constitutional carry here in Missouri and no permit is required. I still keep my state issued carry permit up to date and valid since it allows me more legal protection versus carrying without a permit. Plus I can carry in other states that recognize Missouri CCW permits.

Same in Arizona and I also have a carry permit, for the same reasons.

 

[Bazoo]

We have permitless carry here in the commonwealth of Ky. I keep mine for various reasons including travel, easier gun purchases, better police stops, and because I expect the law to change back at some point.

 

[herrwalther]

My county in Alabama charges $15 per year (up to 5) for a permit. The renewal process can be done online thanks to the new sheriff and the card arrives in the mail once you are approved. No practical test, picture, fingerprints etc needed. Pretty close to Constitutional carry while still having a permit system.

 

[BCR#1]

I received the same message from the TFA and could care less.

Bill

 

[Dale Alan]

Looks pretty simple to understand , and a person that can't will surely be getting arrested .

 

[Mousegun]

Anyone have a good, simple English definition of, "intent to go armed?" Looking it up has a lot of definitions that use the expression in the text.
I have to agree with buck460 that carrying a gun is by definition, "intent to go armed."

 

[Rule3]

You mean to say they passed a law that is confusing??

It's not that difficult.

I particular like:

the person must be “in a place where the person is lawfully present”

What are these conditions that must be satisfied in order to avoid being charged with the crime of carrying a handgun with the intent to go armed?

• The person must be at least 21 years old (or for those in the military or honorably discharged from the military, at least 18 years old) (Note that a federal lawsuit has already been filed which asserts that the differential treatment of 18-20 year olds is a federal civil rights violation, see, Bassett v. Slatery);
  
• The person must “lawfully” possess a “handgun” (you cannot carry a rifle, shotgun or a handgun with a barrel of 12 inches or more, see TCA § 39-11-106(a)(18), under the Governor’s law);
  
• The person must be “in a place where the person is lawfully present” – the Legislative record is unclear on what this element is intended to accomplish other than being a basis for some category of criminal charge;
  
• The person has never been convicted of the misdemeanor crime of stalking under TCA § 39-17-315 (note that this is a nonviolent misdemeanor in Tennessee and sets a precedent for restricting 2nd Amendment rights based on other nonviolent crimes);
  
• The person has not had one or more DUI’s in the last 5 years;
  
• The person has not had two or more DUI’s in the last 10 years;
  
• The person has never been “adjudicated as a mental defective, judicially committed to or hospitalized in a mental institution pursuant to title 33, or had a court appoint a conservator for the person by reason of a mental defect”; and
  
• The person is not otherwise prohibited from possessing a firearm by 18 U.S.C. § 922(g) as it existed on January 1, 2021.

All of these conditions must be met for the exception to apply. An officer could stop a person and detain them until the officer runs one or more background checks to determined if each of these conditions are met.

 

[AlexanderA]

Virginia has permitless open carry. Whether it's wise to do so is another issue.

 

[MedWheeler]

Florida only has "constitutional carry" when engaged in a lawful camping, fishing, hunting, or shooting activity, or while in direct transit to or from such an activity (stop for ammo, bait, or gas, and you've broken "direct transit".)
Otherwise, Florida is a "shall issue" licensing state. The license allows for the carry of concealed handguns, as well as allowing for the concealment of other, non-firearm weapons that would otherwise be unlawful to carry concealed (such as a fixed-blade knife, electric weapon, or non/less-lethal gun.)

 

[Hasaf]

Kansas allows for permitless carry. However, I am out of state enough that I got a permit.

 

[natman]

In my county in California, it's technically "May issue", but it's actually "Won't issue".

 

[CapnMac]

“in a place where the person is lawfully present”

Since I was gabbing anyway, and more than passing curious, I asked one of my JD friends to opine on that construction.
The response--a mere opinion--was that it was a sentence meant to convey being in a place not loutside of legal permission.
So, a person not trespassing, nor guilty of breaking and entering, or of the numerous ways a person might be illegally in a place.
The further opinion was that the construction was meant to address intent.
Which may (only may, consult the State AG for more definitive answers) suggest that the language is a lean way to mean "going about armed with ill intent."

Lawmakers really zero in on things with conjunctions. In the lay world, "If A & B then C" is a singular thing. In the legal world, that's three things: A must needs be proved, then B, then both A and B. Which can seem absurd at face value. But the law has to look at things like, what if only 60% A and 50/50% B?

So the "intend to go armed" probably is meant to include a mens rea of malice, or of malum publica.

 

[.38 Special]

In my county in California, it's technically "May issue", but it's actually "Won't issue".

Try contributing a few million to Gavin's re-election fund. That should grease the wheels for you.

My California county is - like all California counties - "may issue", but is one of those with a pro 2A Sheriff, so in practice we are "shall issue". It's a many-months-long process, with background checks, interviews, training, etc. and costs several hundred dollars. It also needs to be renewed every two years. Considering how it is for many of my fellow enthusiasts in CA., though, I still feel sort of lucky.

 

[Rule3]

Since I was gabbing anyway, and more than passing curious, I asked one of my JD friends to opine on that construction.
The response--a mere opinion--was that it was a sentence meant to convey being in a place not loutside of legal permission.
So, a person not trespassing, nor guilty of breaking and entering, or of the numerous ways a person might be illegally in a place.
The further opinion was that the construction was meant to address intent.
Which may (only may, consult the State AG for more definitive answers) suggest that the language is a lean way to mean "going about armed with ill intent."

Lawmakers really zero in on things with conjunctions. In the lay world, "If A & B then C" is a singular thing. In the legal world, that's three things: A must needs be proved, then B, then both A and B. Which can seem absurd at face value. But the law has to look at things like, what if only 60% A and 50/50% B?

So the "intend to go armed" probably is meant to include a mens rea of malice, or of malum publica.

Thats the way I read it, but they made it more difficult than needed, So don't be in some place that it would be illegal for you to be,

 

[CapnMac]

but they made it more difficult than needed

From our (incredibly specific) perspective, yes.

But, rather than list all the possible ways to be illegally in a place, they phrased it in the inverse.

Which also has a benefit of presuming that persons illegally in a place could be prosecuted for that illegality by itself.

We all want laws to be simple and few in number. But, achieving that laudable goal is hard. And wants complex language lest people take to contesting the meaning of verb forms of "to be."

Let's face it, Law Enforcement intends to go about armed every day they are on the job. But, that carry is tied to the intent to preserve public order and deter criminality.

 

[edcknives]

I live in CT, own properties in VT and ME. Both the latter don't require a permit. I have a LTC in CT and AZ as it allows me between the two over 35 states with carry reciprocity. I also have insurance from CCW Safe, better to have a not need than to need and not have.

 

[lawson4]

In South Carolina, come August 15 we can open carry if we have a concealed weapon permit.

 

[BigBore44]

Oklahoma has Constitutional Carry. Both open and concealed. Obviously there are prohibited persons and places.

 

[old lady new shooter]

the person must be “in a place where the person is lawfully present”

That probably means, besides the obvious that you don't get to break in somewhere, that you can't climb over the fence into the state park to go shooting when it's closed, etc.

 

[old lady new shooter]

I also have insurance from CCW Safe

Me too.

 

[Insignificant bill]

I got this message from TFA. I already have a carry permit and so I was pretty much ignoring this issue in my state. However:



The 'intent to go armed' part is particularly alarming to me.

https://tennesseefirearms.com/2021/...aw-and-recommends-getting-the-permit-instead/

That is disturbing. The legislature let the residents of your State down apparently for some political reason.

 

[Craig_AR]

Arkansas is listed on Handgunlaw.us as not requiring a permit. However, the legal basis for that status is in neither the state constitution nor statute. Originally stated in a judicial opinion, the attorney general published a legal opinion that a permit is not required to carry. However, that does not relieve anyone from complying with the state laws on prohibited places, such as schools and properly identified businesses. Thus, Arkansas still has a robust Concealed Handgun Carry License (CHCL) program, which also gives us the needed permit for reciprocal states. Further, we have an Enhanced CHCL, which opens up otherwise prohibited added places we can carry, such as public colleges and universities and the State Capitol building and grounds. You have to hold the basic CHCL in order to move up to get the ECHCL.