"What gives you the right. . ."

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It should be added that the Constitution, along with the Bill Of Rights, was meant to PROTECT rights and not grant them.

The Constitution " codifies " some natural rights that every person is born with . Our forfathers here naturally listed the most obvious of them , and at times not in the best language , but none the less the fact is that they explicitly stated that they recognised rights , not instilled them . As to Britain well when we had a little dust up with them in the late 1700s they were the " empire the sun never sets on " . Nowadays they are the empire the sun never rises on , and every bit of it happened in the last century . Nowadays england is a valued ally for us , but honestly i live in colorado and i could drive the length in less or at a similar time that it takes me to drive to brownsvill tx . ( remember , lots of good pubs , and the whole other side of the roads thing ... which i suspect the pubs would help with ) . No one can question that england and its folk once were great , I do question the pack of thieves they have handed power over to nowadays lol . Ill just say that the English have allways been " Subjects " with less recourse than us " Citizens " of the break away colonys .
 
Even the later amendments, such as the 15th, say a particular right "shall not be abridged" rather than granting a right.

I personally agree. We must recognize that not everyone thinks so, however. Natural rights is a British and French idea that we adopted. The huge number of German immigrants who came into this country in the late 19th century did not believe in natural rights, and their ideas have spread through the society, which is why you have to explain natural rights to people today.

In addition, of course, government woudl be happier to have us all believe the "government grants us rights" philosophy we associate with German philosophers such as Hegel and Marx.
 
Even the later amendments, such as the 15th, say a particular right "shall not be abridged" rather than granting a right.

I see the 15th as granting a right. But I see the right of suffrage as a political right which is associated with the government or compact, as opposed to a natural or divine right which is independent of the compact.
 
The right to violent revolution is not allowed by almost all governments.
 
Thats because we have allowed rights to become priveleges, first the NFA Act, etc then carry 'permits' etc then FOID/FID cards etc, on and on.
 
Words mean things.
Use them properly.
Learn what you desire to speak, learn to effectively use the language, think about what you want to say, then speak.
It'll help keep you out of jail and from stepping on your crank in public

Sam
 
Nothing gives you the right.
Many people would disagree with you and say that their creator gives them their rights. As for me, I beleive rights were indeed 'given' to me by way of birth. Had I not been born, I would not exist, and therefore have no rights.
 
I smell Hobbes...

As long as I have the power, I have the right to do it. When I lose the power I no longer have that right, its pretty simple.

This is Hobbes' asssertion, in Leviathan and elsewhere, that pre-societal humans have limitless rights: I have the right to murder you, and you have the right to murder me (Moderator: this is not an endorsement of illegal activity). This led him to the accurate conclusion that the life of the pre-societal human was "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short."

The very REASON that societies arose among men (he posits) is so we can GIVE UP RIGHTS to achieve safety: I give up my right to murder you (that is, now consequences will be attached), you give up your right to murder me, and we institute a "big hammer" (government) that can hurt us if we overstep our (newly limited) rights. This was the basic idea of the "social contract."

From this perspective, we have seen a "diversity" of societies emerge: some (many) have been founded on the idea of doing away with as many individual rights as possible, and subordinating them to the "collective good" (read: "whatever Big Brother says").

One society, ours, has had as one of its founding principles reserving as many rights to the people as possible. But as we know, the government, by its very nature, will try to expand its powers over time. A written constitution and a constitutional court (SCOTUS) are supposed to be a brake on that expansion, but they are imperfect safeguards.

Hobbesians will argue that whatever liberties a nation agrees to abandon in the name of safety, well, that's just their choice of how to arrrange their particular social contract.

Of course, there are those of us that argue (following Locke and Jefferson) the opposite, and say with Ben Franklin, that "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

But that still leaves the question: what's that word "essential" mean? From what (if anything other than "consensus") do human rights derive?

As Cosmoline says,
If we are something more than that, with an inherent autonomy by virtue of our physical and mental existence, then rights flow from our very form and function.
I would posit that those who argue for the existentence of essential (unalienable--such a great word, does anyone even know what it means anymore?) rights are very close philosophically to those who argue for universal moral standards.

Unfortunately, authoritative texts for what essential liberties are are not legal texts (even our Constitution's guarantees are subject to change by amendment), but ratheer religious and philosopical ones. And few respect those documents as much as legal documents, these days.

But it does come down to the question: do I NOT have a right to murder you, because in joining society I agreed not to, or because a human being, by virtue of nothing other than being human, has a right not to be murdered--and that trumps my supposed right to do so.

I agree with the intrinsic value of the human being idea. Perhaps living just a few miles from Concord, where the shot heard 'round the world was fired, has influenced my thinking.

(Is this fun? I think so! But it's also incredibly serious.)
 
As long as I have the power, I have the right to do it. When I lose the power I no longer have that right, its pretty simple.
You are, I think, mistaking liberty (both righteous or malevolent in nature) for a right.
 
Funny thing about "rights," whether they perceived is granted, given, intrinsic, or whatever and regardless of how they come to us (God, political figure, law, force of power, etc.), the only thing that makes a right a right is that it is recognized by others as a right. I can claim a right as mine or that I possess it, but if another has the power to deny my right, then my right does not manifest in reality.

There is indeed a gap between idealized rights and rights as they exist in reality and practical application. Often, people do not seem to understand the difference between the two. A lot of us argue our 2nd Amendment rights from the idealized view as well, but the idealized view is not a reality in our society.
 
Rights are social constructs derived from a philosophy or worldview

Agreed, and this brings up an interesting point to me.

Rights are based on ability on some level. The members of the society or civilization or culture that are upholding that worldview or philosophy express and uphold those rights. Without that civilization or society or culture, those rights may as well not exist. (The converse, that without those rights, the civilization may not exist, is also usually true).

Without the ability, particularly on a societal level, to determine and enforce the concept of a "right," it does not exist.

Ability (on an individual or societal level) does not "equal" a right, but a right does not exist without ability.
 
Our "rights" come with a moral connection- we may choose to exercise our rights, but our rights are always limited by the rights of others. I think people confuse "rights" with the flagrant state and local laws which infringe on our rights. So, when I hear the media say "this will give people the right to---" I know the statement should be "this will make ____ legal".
 
Kentac said:
First of all, look up the definition of "ephemeral," that's probably not want you meant, unless you believe that rights are extremely short lived, or temporary. Maybe you meant, "ethereal?"

Totally wrong. Rights are social constructs derived from a philosophy or worldview. See my post in reply to a similar contention about rights.

http://thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=4896291&postcount=19

You're right about ethereal. Sorry about that. Thanks for catching me.

For the rest, I'll just respectfully disagree :)
 
I can claim a right as mine or that I possess it, but if another has the power to deny my right, then my right does not manifest in reality.
Again another person confusing a right with a liberty. You have the right although you may not be at liberty to exercise it because of tyranny or oppression. The right is always there, the liberty to exercise it is what may or may not be there because someone else has ower over you.
 
The right is always there, the liberty to exercise it is what may or may not be there because someone else has ower over you.

Well-said. But there is a point at which a right can or does disappear entirely. What stops that from happening, and what causes it to happen, and when it happens, is debatable.
 
Again another person confusing a right with a liberty. You have the right although you may not be at liberty to exercise it because of tyranny or oppression. The right is always there, the liberty to exercise it is what may or may not be there because someone else has ower over you.

Then rights could be limitless, but the liberty to exercise your multitude of rights is often constrained.
 
Henry Bowman said:
The right is being restored. It's not a "new" right. In virtually every case, the right was recognized at some point in the past, and later was taken away (or denied). Now, it is being restored.

Henry, Since the right never goes away, it can't be restored. I think it would be better said that the particular rights - or certain parts of them - are being uninfringed.

Harve Curry said:
... People who write or say words to the effect " ...gives us the right...." are miss-speaking....
Rights can be legislated away and most will never know it happened or that they ever existed.

Saying rights can be legislated away is also miss-speaking. Rights are infringed by unconstitutional legislation, not legislated away. Rights never go away.

v35 said:
...Governments can only take them away. ...
Using the language correctly would result in a statement such as, "Governments can only infringe our rights," not take them away.

Cosmoline said:
The Bill of Rights does not give rights, it restricts government in recognition of existing rights. The Founders were very clear on that point, and it's a bedrock principle of the Revolution. Jefferson said it beautifully in the Declaration, but unfortunately the way the Constitution evolved the BOR ended up being amendments with no eloquent preamble.

Ah, but the preamble to the Constitution is as applicable to the amendments as it is to the original articles. Article V makes any such amendment as much a part of the Constitution as any of the original articles.

If you believe in republics, then our right came from G-d (or Nature). But this is NOT an unchallenged assertion. Darwinian sociologists will tell you that "rights" are a "feature" of a society that has--to date--been successful at sustaining and propogating itself; rights have no "intrinsic" existence, and are only valuable to the extent that they promote the survival of a particular society.

Consider the source. Sociologists. Same for the secular humanists. You have all your inalienable rights whether you can defend them or not. The problem lies with the infringers and their usurped powers.

fiddletown said:
But there will always be the practical consideration that unless a court recognizes a right, your life, property or freedom can nonetheless be adversely affected for an act you may claim is within that right. So you can pound your chest and proclaim "I have the right" to do this thing that violates a statute; but unless a court finds a legally cognizable basis for the claim of right, you will suffer whatever penalty attaches to that violation.

I think the Founding Fathers would disagree with you. If they awaited a favorable ruling from the king's court...Well, you can guess where we would stand today.

Cosmoline said:
I've certainly heard these arguments, but they are confusing the development of societies with the much more fundamental question of what a human being is. If all we are is grist for the mill, then under a primal social contract we have no rights that are not given to us. If we are something more than that, with an inherent autonomy by virtue of our physical and mental existence, then rights flow from our very form and function. This is a huge problem I have with many of the so-called "humanists." They actually place almost no value on individual humans. The global community, as they define and organize it, comes first.

Clap! Clap! Clap! Clap! (The applause, not the disease.)

Kentak said:
Totally wrong. Rights are social constructs derived from a philosophy or worldview. See my post in reply to a similar contention about rights.

The Founding Fathers would disagree with you as well: "WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, ..."

hugh damright said:
I see the 15th as granting a right. But I see the right of suffrage as a political right which is associated with the government or compact, as opposed to a natural or divine right which is independent of the compact.

I would say the right to vote is indeed intrinsic and unalienable, and not granted. It is a part of the right of the people to alter or to abolish a government that became destructive to our rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as mentioned in the Declaration of Independence.

KP89 said:
... As long as I have the power, I have the right to do it. When I lose the power I no longer have that right, its pretty simple.

This is bass ackwards. As long as you have the right, you have the power. Infringing rights might limit your powers, but rights are the source of your powers - even the source of the powers you grant to a government; or don't prevent the government from usurping...

gc70 said:
Then rights could be limitless, but the liberty to exercise your multitude of rights is often constrained.

Basically, all rights are limitless. Anything that can be justly constrained is not part of a right. Slander and libel are not part of your right to speak your mind. You can be held accountable for the damage your undisciplined tongue might cause. Your right to keep and bear arms is unlimited - it being benign and innocuous - but as for use, your right to use arms forcefully against another would only be rightful in a defensive situation. You have no right to use arms aggressively.

Woody

"Revolution is the Right of the People to preserve or restore Freedom. Those vested with power shall neither deprive the People the means, nor compel such recourse." B.E.Wood
 
The Founding Fathers would disagree with you as well: "WE hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, ..."

Hey, Cowboy

If the god-given rights were so self-evident, how did they miss applying them to Negroes who were taken against their will from their homeland and sold into slavery in the new US of A? Either the creator did not intend these self-evident truths to apply to his darker skinned creations, or the founders/framers had a world view, i.e. philosophy, which conveniently allowed that little exception.

K
 
You're right about ethereal. Sorry about that. Thanks for catching me.

For the rest, I'll just respectfully disagree

Certainly. But, respectfully, I'd like to hear more about where these "ethereal" rights can be found IF they are not the product of the human mind contemplating the proper way for people in societies to interact with each other. The "truths" the framers found to self-evident were only evident because of the unique world view they held due to a convergence of factors that occurred at that time in Western thought. They certainly weren't self-evident a great number of other cultures throughout the world at that time.

K
 
Kentak said:
Hey, Cowboy
If the god-given rights were so self-evident, how did they miss applying them to Negroes who were taken against their will from their homeland and sold into slavery in the new US of A? Either the creator did not intend these self-evident truths to apply to his darker skinned creations, or the founders/framers had a world view, i.e. philosophy, which conveniently allowed that little exception.

Provisions were entered in the Constitution to abolish slavery. (Article I, Section 9, Clause 1. (Prior to that, it was strictly a state issue.) and the Thirteenth Amendment.)

gc70 said:
So rights must be whatever society says they are.

Your rights are what ever you need to survive and be free as if there were no government.

Woody
 
The consensus that other can not recognize rights does not change the fact its a right, and at the very least they would be infringing on our Liberty which we have a right to also

So they get it coming or going in our favor
 
ConstitutionCowboy said:
Your rights are what ever you need to survive and be free as if there were no government.
Not really. If there is no form of government of some type -- e. g., a tribal acceptance that certain rights exist and imposing sanctions for violating them -- there are no rights. There is only power. Thus you would have no right to property if I have enough power to overcome your resistance and take it from you. And absent some form of "government" to punish me for doing so, it's simply that my power is greater than yours. And of course I keep what I took from you only until someone more powerful than I comes along and takes it from me in turn.

Rights may be natural or "God given", but it takes a social organization to honor, support and protect those rights.
 
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