What group at 50yrds is very good? 22lr Semi Auto

[Orion8472]

What group at 50 yards would be considered very good, for a 22lr rifle set up, scope, benched, semi-auto?

I took my Bull barrel 10/22 out to the range and benched it. First two shots were nearly touching, and pretty much right in the center of a 1 inch targe. Then the next three shots [same trigger pull and steadiness] were outside of the inch target....and subsequent shots were off to the left. Scope is tightly secure in the mounts.

I spent the next bit of a 50 round box of CCI Standard Velocity "chasing" the bullet in the crosshairs, and my last shot was right on point of aim. But that was my last round. Not sure if it would have continued being spot on. I'll have to take it out again next weekend with another box or two.

The barrel is a Clerke bull barrel [16 inch] that I've had for quite a lot of years. Not sure how many rounds I've put through it.

 

[ThomasT]

My Ruger 77/22 made in 1986 with factory open sights will shoot 10 shot 5/8" groups all day long. And do it with Federal Bulk box ammo from Walmart. Thats using a straight tube 4x Bushnell scope. My Marlin lever will do close to the same. My box stock 10/22s stay around the 1.5" mark at 50 yards. Not nearly as good but plenty good for what I use them for. They are field use guns, not target guns.

 

[redneck2]

I spent the next bit of a 50 round box of CCI Standard Velocity "chasing" the bullet in the crosshairs

It should never take more than maybe three rounds to zero a rifle. Put it in a REALLY steady rest, shoot. Put it back in the rest with the caps off the scope. Center the crosshairs on the bullseye. Now, without moving the rifle and holding absolutely solid, adjust the crosshairs to the bullet hole. You should be zero’d

If you used 50 rounds chasing the bullet holes you wasted a lot of ammo

I suspect your scope is not holding zero. With my CZ 453 with a VX-3 4-14 scope, super solid rest, and match ammo, I can shoot sub 1/2” pretty consistently. A 10/22 is a different critter

 

[LiveLife]

I suspect your scope is not holding zero

I always recheck my scope mount bolts after doing warm up shots.

With any new barrel, I prefer to shoot several hundred rounds of plated ammo to "burnish" the bore surface before shooting lead ammunition for groups. So inspect the barrel and clean any leading/fouling you see before the next range trip.

Also, there's the factor of cold vs hot barrel and transition as barrel warms up.

That's why for my two "real world" 10/22 and T/CR22 threads, I shoot the 10 shot groups with hot barrel after typically shooting 200-300 rounds of warm up shots to better reflect "real world plinking" conditions.

Below are targets from the T/CR22 thread and various copper plated/lead ammunition were fired after 300 rounds for scope zero/barrel warm up (Round count 600) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...mmo-comparison-break-in.864241/#post-11980400

Like the 10/22, T/CR22 barrel is ammunition selective reflected by larger Federal/Walmart red/blue CPHP bulk box groups compared to tighter Aguila boxed CPRN/Lead groups. Even with different Aguila ammo, group sizes varied so before blaming the barrel, I would try different ammunition.

 

[jmr40]

10-22's are all over the place. I've seen some that were pretty accurate. With good ammo somewhere around 1/2" groups at 50 yards for 5 shots. Others were good for 1.5" groups on a good day with good ammo. Closer to 2" with cheap bulk ammo.

 

[55fairlane]

Well this may start a fight but here we go......
I don't think it's possible to make a 10/22 accurate. I have seen guys put $1000 plus in a 10/22 to hang with a $400 savage.....
Yes I think a semi auto can be accurate, but I don't think a 10/22 is that rifle.
Your truly after accuracy Anschutz, CZ , Savage
And before you get all mad because of what I have said, I know first hand, I spent over $900 on parts trying to make a 10/22 hold it's own against a Savage.
It's a total package you need to look at aftermarket barrel is a good start, but you need a good trigger, and the bolt must move buttery smooth.
And I will agree with most, more barrels have been ruined from improper cleaning.
CCI SV is ok for practice, better ammo like RWS or Eley or SK will produce better groups

 

[LiveLife]

10-22's are all over the place

OP replaced the factory barrel with aftermarket barrel

barrel is a Clerke bull barrel [16 inch]

 

[StrawHat]

…That's why for my two "real world" 10/22 and T/CR22 threads, I shoot the 10 shot groups with hot barrel after typically shooting 200-300 rounds of warm up shots to better reflect "real world plinking" conditions…

Wow! That’s a lot of shooting to do before plinking. When I go for a day of plinking I doubt if I shoot 100 rounds, total.

Kevin

 

[Howland937]

I agree with @LiveLife

Hot barrel vs cold barrel, fouled barrel vs clean, etc... meaning something's changed. The barrel heating up, lead fouling, scope loose internally or externally.

Once it started moving from center, did it keep going farther left or settle in somewhere?

Assuming you're not looking past anything obvious like wind drift, and assuming you haven't developed an astigmatism between range trips (weird, but I have first hand experience with this)

And....just about any 10/22 with a decent barrel should shoot 1/2" at 50 yards pretty regularly. Even those old $99 Butler Creek combos would.

 

[Orion8472]

It should never take more than maybe three rounds to zero a rifle. Put it in a REALLY steady rest, shoot. Put it back in the rest with the caps off the scope. Center the crosshairs on the bullseye. Now, without moving the rifle and holding absolutely solid, adjust the crosshairs to the bullet hole. You should be zero’d

If you used 50 rounds chasing the bullet holes you wasted a lot of ammo

I suspect your scope is not holding zero. With my CZ 453 with a VX-3 4-14 scope, super solid rest, and match ammo, I can shoot sub 1/2” pretty consistently. A 10/22 is a different critter

My scope is a new Vortex. I'm going to say it isn't the scope.

 

[Orion8472]

Well this may start a fight but here we go......
I don't think it's possible to make a 10/22 accurate. I have seen guys put $1000 plus in a 10/22 to hang with a $400 savage.....
Yes I think a semi auto can be accurate, but I don't think a 10/22 is that rifle.
Your truly after accuracy Anschutz, CZ , Savage
And before you get all mad because of what I have said, I know first hand, I spent over $900 on parts trying to make a 10/22 hold it's own against a Savage.
It's a total package you need to look at aftermarket barrel is a good start, but you need a good trigger, and the bolt must move buttery smooth.
And I will agree with most, more barrels have been ruined from improper cleaning.
CCI SV is ok for practice, better ammo like RWS or Eley or SK will produce better groups

I'm using Volquarten trigger parts in my lower.

Anyway, I've been thinking about getting a Savage bolt rifle for a more pin point accuracy shooting. You could be right per the 10/22. Mostly, I'm going to say that I may just have to be happy enough with it, and generally I am.

 

[LiveLife]

I suspect your scope is not holding zero.

My scope is a new Vortex. I'm going to say it isn't the scope.

I think redneck2 might be concerned about SCOPE MOUNT getting loose and not the scope.

I always recheck my scope mount bolts after doing warm up shots.

 

[LiveLife]

Wow! That’s a lot of shooting to do before plinking. When I go for a day of plinking I doubt if I shoot 100 rounds, total.

I do a lot of testing/myth busting for the Handloading & Reloading subcategory and when I prepped for 20+ 22LR ammunition comparison tests with several 10/22s (Including a new Take Down model), I averaged 500-1000 rounds per range session and shot around 20,000 rounds the past 3 years.

I decided to test a factory stock 10/22 out of the box and Collector #3 model was bought and 3000 rounds were tested with 10 shot groups repeatedly captured to trend accuracy/groups as trigger and barrel broke in and wore.

I don't think it's possible to make a 10/22 accurate.

My factory stock 10/22 retained factory trigger without any trigger job (intentionally), barrel free-floated with a simple plastic shim under the v-block and a piece of electrical tape was applied to the rear of the receiver ... That's it.

Below 50 yard groups were shot with different "bulk" ammunition at 2460 round count and by 2700 round count, I was producing sub 1" 10 shot groups (Yes, I produced many 1/2" 5 shot groups but 5 shot groups are subset of 10 shot groups ... nod to member jmorris) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...lector-3-break-in.859106/page-2#post-11310458

 

[JFrank]

What group at 50 yards would be considered very good, for a 22lr rifle set up, scope, benched, semi-auto?

I took my Bull barrel 10/22 out to the range and benched it. First two shots were nearly touching, and pretty much right in the center of a 1 inch targe. Then the next three shots [same trigger pull and steadiness] were outside of the inch target....and subsequent shots were off to the left. Scope is tightly secure in the mounts.

I spent the next bit of a 50 round box of CCI Standard Velocity "chasing" the bullet in the crosshairs, and my last shot was right on point of aim. But that was my last round. Not sure if it would have continued being spot on. I'll have to take it out again next weekend with another box or two.

The barrel is a Clerke bull barrel [16 inch] that I've had for quite a lot of years. Not sure how many rounds I've put through it.

Did you have a wind flag set up ?
Was the rifle barrel clean ?

 

[WhoMe?]

Have you ruled out parallax? It's easy and free to check for.

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/scopes-beginners-parallax-adjustment/

 

[LiveLife]

CCI SV is ok for practice, better ammo like RWS or Eley or SK will produce better groups

For my 10/22s, CCI SV produced smaller, predictable groups compared to most commercial bulk/boxed ammo, often smaller than Aguila 40 gr Lead/CPRN.

Bull barrel 10/22 out to the range and benched it. First two shots were nearly touching, and pretty much right in the center of a 1 inch targe. Then the next three shots [same trigger pull and steadiness] were outside of the inch target....and subsequent shots were off to the left. Scope is tightly secure in the mounts.

During my 20,000 round testing with several 10/22s and T/CR22, I have often seen this and drove me nuts.

Many members like jmorris reminded me that accuracy must consider composite of all rounds fired. The reason why I capture 10 shot groups over thousands of rounds is that we can produce "composite" grouping of each ammunition type as trigger/rifling wear.

As I shot more and more groups, what I initially saw as drifting of shots/groups, flyers induced by shooter (poor trigger control) were more and more, true totality of barrel and ammunition accuracy range. Chrono testing showed variation of muzzle velocity which will print on target as low or high shots due to bullet drop.

As well illustrated by my target pictures using different ammunition, I suggest you shoot different ammunition before blaming the barrel for flyers.

Below is a listing of ammunition tested in my 10/22 Collector #3 from those that produced smallest groups consistently to larger groups (And I am finding the listing order is different for T/CR22):

1. CCI Standard 40 gr LRN - Boxed - Consistent group size
2. CCI Blazer 40 gr LRN - Boxed - Consistent group size
3. Aguila 40 gr LRN - Boxed - Consistent group size
4. Aguila 40 gr CPRN - Boxed - Consistent group size
5. Federal Auto Match 40 gr LRN - Loose Bulk - Group size varied
6. Federal Field Pack 38 gr CPHP - Loose Bulk - Group size varied
7. Remington Thunderbolt 40 gr LRN - Loose Bulk - Small to large groups with flyers
8. Armscor 36 gr CPHP - Boxed - Varying group size with flyers
9. Remington Golden Bullet 36 gr CPHP - Loose Bulk - Fairly consistent group size
10. Federal Champion 40 gr LRN - Boxed - Group size varied
11. Federal Value 36 gr CPHP 550 Walmart Red Box - Loose Bulk (new solid red box) - Group size varied
12. Federal Value 36 gr CPHP 550 Walmart Red Box - Loose Bulk (old box) - Group size varied
13. Winchester XPert 36 gr LRN 500 - Loose Bulk - Group size varied
    
14. Federal Value 36 gr CPHP 525 Blue Box - Loose Bulk (older lot) - Group size varied
15. Winchester 36 gr CPHP 555 - Loose Bulk - Group size varied
16. Winchester M22 40 gr CPRN 500 - Loose Bulk (several misfires per box) - Group size varied with flyers

 

[Jim Watson]

My 10-22 was very accurate with the case of ammo I bought with it.
Never found another load as good.

 

[sarduy]

One hole

 

[Orion8472]

I think redneck2 might be concerned about SCOPE MOUNT getting loose and not the scope.

​

Well,....it's hard to know about the scope base. Unfortunately, it may not be the best. The holes were stripped years ago and larger screws put in their place by a gunsmith,...but even those may be compromised. It may be the actual reason. If I recall, one of them stripped out again some time ago. It SEEMS solid to me. It's the problem with the 10/22....which is why I like the T/CR-22 better.

 

[LiveLife]

I spent the next bit of a 50 round box of CCI Standard Velocity "chasing" the bullet in the crosshairs, and my last shot was right on point of aim.

On your next range trip, put the crosshairs on the same spot and shoot 10 to 20 rounds until you have a recognizable somewhat round scatter pattern. Center of this scatter group is the "center of impact" for your composite group to adjust your scope.

Without knowing this "scatter group" size, trying to adjust your crosshairs so POI hits at POA will drive you nuts.

Check that scope mount bolts are tight and once you have the scope adjusted to this center of "scatter group", then shoot a 10 shot group with CCI SV you have. As long as the scope mount is solid, your group should be tight, especially with your match bull barrel. Now, if your group acts weird, elongates or scatters even more, it could be loose scope mount.

 

[Orion8472]

Will give the rifle a cleaning and retry again next weekend.

 

[MacAR]

My experience has been generally good with the 10/22. I've had several over the years, and all have given me quarter-sized groups at 50. A couple will do better than that, but honestly that's all I ask for. Mine have all been stock, with the exception of the current two. They have home done trigger jobs, and that's all. Still, they group respectably for what they are.

As to semi autos in general, I have an old Mossberg that'll shoot one hole at 50, and Marlin 99 that will, too. Mind you, that's rested in a lead sled. Either of those guns will shoot better than I'm capable. The Marlin has the best trigger out of all of them, and its stock. The Mossberg has a heavy trigger, but once you get the hang of it, it shoots excellent. Not bashing the 10/22, mind you. Just relating my personal experiences with each one. I will say, I've seen some 10/22's that'll shoot with the best match rifles, but they were the 1k guns mentioned earlier. Not my cup of tea.

Mac

 

[Slamfire]

Centerfire shooters have no idea how much rimfire bullets move in the wind. A standard 22lr has all the ballistics of a spit wad, and if you shoot rimfire in competition, at 50 and 100 yards, you pay attention to grass movement, mirage, anything that will give a clue to the direction and velocity of the wind. So, I am pretty sure there is some wind movement in your groups, but also, just might be due to cheap ammunition. Match shooters spend god awful amounts of money on ammunition and pay hundreds to have their rifle lot tested. Ammunition varies by lot, and if you are trying to win something, then you want to use the ammunition that is the most accurate. And having done this, I bought all the ammunition I could afford, after Laupa lot tested my rifle. Both Laupa and Eley shoot 40 round groups in their wind tunnel for comparison.

As to what is a good group, can you hold the X ring at 50 yards of the standard NRA smallbore prone target with your 10/22? That is a darn good start to accuracy.

I almost did at a regional, with irons, with my BSA MKIII



targets that two former National Champions shot on the same relay, at a Regional, prone, with a sling, with irons! Five shots per bull. They only shoot five shots per bull at 50 yards, and 50 meters, because it would be impossible to determine if ten shots went through that hole.






I did shoot this with an Anschutz, off a bench, with a scope, just to see how CCI SV shot in a rifle. It did well





I would never shoot this stuff in a rifle match, as I have found from experience, cheap ammunition flings the occasional shot, and you get a lot of 6 OC low velocity shots.

this is an extreme example of what will happen with cheap ammunition



Don't let anyone tell you a 10/22 can't be accurate, it really depends on the barrel. My Ruger 10/22, I could rock a round in the chamber of the factory barrel by pressing on the rim. It had been cut with a huge reamer, so those who never clean their rifle, would not be calling the factory complaining about their 10/22 jamming. I am sure it would chamber dwarf bananas. When I replaced that barrel with a Lothar Walther barrel that Volquartsen installed, that 10/22 would shoot as well as a match rifle, only limited by the crappy Ruger trigger.

I have been told Ruger has made 10/22 with outstanding barrels and chambering jobs that do shoot as well as an Anschutz. At some level of barrel quality, the difference in accuracy is due to the ammunition.

 

[Skylerbone]

Accuracy is more than the sum of money or parts as a certainty, doubly so with a rimfire. Assembly, shooter, conditions, cleanliness, and ammo always factor in.

Methodology is important so assuming the barrel is above factory grade, you have V-block (factory or aftermarket and tension thereof), pillar or no, stock to barrel contact or no, base (often glassed to receiver), rings (quality and correct tension), scope, parallax, bolt (factory often produces first round flyers).

If the above are all in order, then ammo. Every rifle has likes and dislikes. Starting from a clean bore, run a box through to lubricate the barrel then a second box to test group size. Clean and repeat for each new load. If you cannot dial out parallax and the factory setting is not matched to the yardage you shoot, do not break position during any group. You shouldn’t anyway.

Once you’ve found the best ammo for your rifle, begin logging what the barrel does from cold bore and look for a pattern as it warms up.

Wind if present will always always always play a part as will the shooter. Try to minimize those as well.

I don’t have fancy rifles but I have several that can group under 1/2” at 50 yards per magazine using factory barrels at under 10x magnification. That isn’t stellar accuracy and so I feel a target grade 10/22 ought to be capable of better, even if only a shade or three.

One last thing often missed is target type. Just as having too thick a reticle makes precision shooting more difficult, so too can the wrong target. Chose something your scope can bracket repeatedly and don’t let POI be your aiming point.

 

[JCooperfan1911]

With these aging peepers, anything under 1MOA is acceptable at 50.