What gun suitable for defensive use?

[Geno]

YG said:

I currently own a remington 870 in 20 gauge and i have a remington 270 700 adl bolt rifle. i would like a nice semi auto to use.

My suggestion, invest your money in ammo and simply practice with what you own. You already possess two excellent and practical firearms. IMHO, there is no other weapon that is so effective and so efficient as a shotgun for home defense...none. The Remington 700 ADL in .270 Win, what more needs to be said?! Sakes alive! That is (IMHO) an extraordinary rifle/chambering! You have your bases covered for hunting, target shooting and defense if ever needed.

Geno

 

[Younggunner]

Yes I've looked at the sks, but if I'm going to get a semi auto rifle, I want a rifle that isn't longer than my deer rifle. The ranch rifle looks good but it's really expensive, the saiga looks great but all the upgrades will take a long time for me to get the money, so it's either the m1 carbine or an ak 47 (Romanian)

 

[DMK]

The M1 carbine is not considered accurate over long distances. I'm not experienced with either type of gun, but I doubt it's going to be more accurate than most AKs that are functioning properly.

Just my 2 cents --- I would not be getting a M1 carbine - it is a little underpowered , not very accurate over 50 yards or so , and finding ammo for it could be hard.

Where are you guys getting this from? Or maybe I should ask, what do you consider accurate? An M1 carbine should be just as accurate, if not better than an SKS, Saiga AK or Mini-14. Mine shoots very well.

As far as stopping power, it will do quite well out to at least 100 yards with SP ammo.

 

[Younggunner]

One of my other neighbors is a Korea vet. His right hand has the thumb and index finger gone. He was issued a carbine, but he was a machine gunner so he didn't use It much. He said it had good killing power when his partner was relaoding the browning, I think it was.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Daniel,

So far you've come across as a lot more mature than some of your detractors here. Please don't lose the high ground... or The High Road. Even if sometimes the place might fall short of its name, we're trying. Hang in there.

As for Mini-14s, I personally don't care for 'em. I'd rather have an AR for a 5.56 carbine. Good magazines are a hassle for Minis, and they tend to develop wandering zeros as they heat up. I understand there have been some changes in newer models, but I haven't used a Mini since the 182 series, so I don't know if they have fixed that major issue or not.

AKs are useful, but I like ARs better. Maybe because I have more experience with them, as much as anything else. I just find ARs easier to hit with. True, AKs are less expensive. But price isn't everything.

Anyone who can afford a Mini (or a good M-1 carbine), can IMHO pretty much afford a decent AR with only a little more effort. The frenzy provoked by the recent election seems to be slowing down some.

Stag makes a mirror image left handed AR- see the company website at http://www.stagarms.com/ for more information. They make good ARs. And magazines and accessories are a lot more available for AR platforms as well. If you have your heart set on a carbine, that's as good a choice as any.

And I mean carbine, whether you get a 16" or a 20" barrel- it's a carbine caliber IMO no matter what barrel length it comes out of. Even so, I think it has enough advantages to make it a worthwhile consideration. If I didn't think so, I wouldn't have sent my wife to Louis Awerbuck's carbine class as a birthday present a couple of years ago, and given her a new AR carbine to go with it. The nice thing about the AR platform is that it is pretty easily managed by broad range of shooters, from 14-year-olds to 60-something university professor types like my wife.

Around here in rural SE NC, what lots of folks generally depend on for defensive long guns are pump shotguns. But there is always one AR carbine outside the safe in this house as well, when we are at home. We live way out in the country, and the only deputy on duty might well be on the far side of the county if we needed help. People around here are as a rule prepared to take care of themselves, the way rural folks are most anywhere in the country. It isn't the way things would be in a perfect world, but it will be a while before we achieve perfection here on the third rock.

It's for your parents to decide what responsibilities you're ready to assume and when- not mine. I hope they have instilled in you a full appreciation for the level of responsibility that goes with handling any firearm. If not, it's pretty much up to you to seek out your own education yourself, and to find and develop mentors to help you along your way. Have you had your state's hunter safety class yet, for example? It's a good start, and I encourage anyone at any stage of their shooting career to take it if they haven't had it at least once already.

I wish you the best of luck,

lpl

 

[SwordRapier]

I don't own a M1 Carbine. I would like to own a M1 carbine. Because, I do not own a M1 carbine please take what I have to say with a grain of salt.

I have done some research on the M1 carbine. I am a writer and a game designer so I have to do a bit of research. There were some Marines in the south Pacific during WW II that complained that the M1 Carbine was underpowered but, consider the other weapon option. They were comparing it to the M1 Garand which is a 30.06. In comparison the 30.06 is going has more stopping power.

That being said, it penetrated helmets and light body armor just fine. Is the .30 carbine as potent as the 30.06 or the .308. No, but it really doesn't need to be. Lets face it, there are some folks out there that would complain that a Barrett light 50 is underpowered.

Inevitably if someone post on this forum asking about a gun they want to purchase someone chimes in and says that that gun is underpowered and inaccurate. It's as constant as the northern star.

 

[Younggunner]

Mr. Lee- thankyou for the input, yes I've taken the safety course. And with stag arms if I got an ar-15 I would get a stag, it was the first type of assault rifle I held at cabelas when I started shooting... But hopefully the stag will come along when I have a car and get a job. For right now though. I would rather get the m1 carbine just because of the sights over the ak, and better barrel than the mini 14. But if I had the money, or my dad was willing to spend 1k on an ar-15 I would own one right now. I love my shotgun, and I'm quite lethal with it at 25-50 yards... At least that's what the hogs tell me. Thankyou for that though. I never though of the ar-15. But when the m1 carbine at the pawn shop is 430 with a nice sling in two 15 shot clips, out the door. And the ar-15 is about $1100 out the door. The m1 looks real attractive.

 

[Art Eatman]

I've owned four Mini-14s. I'm on my fifth AR, now. I've owned a couple of GI M1 Carbines in the past and now am content with the one my father carried on D-Day and on through France.

I always stuck a Weaver K4 on my Minis, and they're plenty good for jack rabbits and coyotes to 150 or 200 yards. No problem. Of course, one shot doesn't heat up a barrel. Once a fella has figured out what brand of magazine works, testing a few then creates reliability. And a Mini will give minute-of-torso accuracy all day long. Same basic deal for most any AR, SFAIK. It's one of those deals about which it's difficult for me to get excited.

The GI Carbine is certainly adequately accurate for defensive use. It's no bench rest beauty, but so what? The bullet from GI ammo isn't the world's most effective, but the Good Lord invented handloading as a cure for that. There are several good options, but I'm not gonna give a short course in lethality.

Personal opinion, but I'd rather have a 20-gauge 870 than a single-shot 12. (Note to self: Quit procrastinating and install the 20" cylinder-bore barrel on the Model 12 12-gauge. Practice playing the slide trombone.)

But discussion with parents is a Good Thing. Bad stuff can happen when they're home, and it's nice for the backup folks to be coordinated for The Plan If...

 

[Quoheleth]

An AR option

If you can get that M1 Carbine for five bills (TT&L, so to speak) out the door, that's a pretty good deal.

If you want to go AR, a lower-cost but still high-quality AR is made by Doublestar. Centerfire Systems is selling them in different variations for $800, shipped. (FYI, that's even cheaper than Budsgunshop.com who is famous for low prices.) Too, I'll give Centerfire an attaboy - even with all of the hype of the gun rush the past 8 months, they kept their AR prices low. When I bought mine last November (2 weeks after O-day), sticker was $699. I called a month later to see how high their prices had climbed, fearing I was going ot have to hock body parts, and was pleased to hear it had gone up only a little - and that was passing on their cost increase from DS. The AR I was eventually shipped was @ $780 and that included 2 xtra mags and some "extras" I didn't want, but it was a "take it or leave it" package deal.

As to the quality of the weapon, it shoots great for me. Fifty yard kills of clay pigeons are no problem. One of these days, when it cools off a little, I'll do some shooting at longer ranges to see how it works. I might even throw an inexpensive scope on it for precision.

My point is that the Doublestar is in the same ballpark as a new Mini-14. It's all spec, so it can be upgraded or changed as you want.

Just an option...
Q

PS. FWIW, I "owned" a .22 by the time I was in 8th grade and added a Mossberg 500 20 ga. and Savage 110 in .270 before I graduated HS. My best friend and I subscribed to the gun rags, read 'em, and swapped 'em. We collected empty brass and argued over ballistic tables and charts. This was pre-16. Now that I'm 35, I still do all the same, except with adults. And I don't have to get Dad to buy the guns and ammo for me. I just gotta ask my wife.

 

[Gunfighter123]

Hello YoungGunner,
If you can get a M1 Carbine for $430 and the barrel is not "shot out" , that is a very good deal !!!
Price ammo for it and check to see that it is easy to get. Sooner or later YOU WILL START to reload your own ammo ---- I started to reload when I was around your age and I have reloaded close to a MILLION rounds of handgun/shotgun and rifle ammo by now.
Again , my old 2 cents --- if it were ME , I would get a WASR/Saiga AK type firearm for almost the same money as the M1 Carbine you are looking at. The sights CAN BE upgraded for around $50 anytime you choose to and the 7.62X39 is more powerfull then the .30Carb. but has about the same amount of recoil.

TO THE MODS ------ a BIG THANK YOU for stepping in and putting a end to the silly and mean replies to this young man. I do TRUELY HOPE in the future , that some of our members will remember what it is like to be " a youngster " and have a love of firearms and a thirst for knowldge/safety.

 

[hso]

Assuming a 5'8" 200lb 14 year old is this articulate as opposed to someone pretending to be a young teen, he should seriously discuss this with his family. What he's proposed is an illegal straw purchase and has serious legal implications. OTOH, his father may give a rifle to him legally as a gift, even if it is a reward for hard work around the house (or just "because").

From a practical side, anyone should price what an M1 carbine and the mods suggested. Price the ammunition as well that is needed to expend learning to shoot it. Consider a half a case (500rnds) for calculation purposes. Compare that to an AK or AR and their ammunition. Most would probably abandon the M1 just on cost compared to the others (unless anyone knows where to find good milsurp M1 carbines for 1990's prices).

I didn't read about a .22 being in the list of firearms in the family. A good semiauto .22 is nearly essential in many people's eyes for good reason. Least of which is the inexpensive shooting it affords. Best is that it allows you to spend time learning to shoot well.

Other rifles? There's the AK camp and the AR camp and the Lever gun camp. They all have merits in their suggestions.

 

[Younggunner]

I do have a nice marlin semi auto 22. And with the ar-15 there are lefty stags on gunsamerica.com for 800 so I think that's a decent price. With a saiga I can get either a 223 or 7.62 for $400 in my area+ all modifications which will put me at 600-700. The m1 will put me at 570 for the whole deal. (new stock, metal vent handgaurd, magazines, ammo)

 

[BullfrogKen]

I have a bit of time behind the M-16/AR-15 system from my time in the Marines. And I still believe in accuracy and that every Marine is a rifleman first.

But I don't personally own an AR. Never have. I've had an M1A, and today my "battle rifle" is a Romanian AK in 7.62x39. Five or so years ago I went through an Insights Defensive Rifle class with it. There's nothing "wrong" with those sights. That rifle is good enough. Or as it's been said, "perfection is the enemy of good enough".

The others in the class had AR's. I kept up quite well in both the speed drill competitions and the long range drills. An AK will work just fine. Relatively inexpensive, both the rifle and the ammo, and it'll do just find at defensive distances.


I like the M1 carbine, too. But I'm not good enough to know how to tell if the one at a pawn shop is still in good working order or not. But if it were, I'd be hard pressed to let a good one get away at a good price.


You could always continue saving and get that left handed AR. We've had one here in Study Group built by Stag Arms, and it's a good rifle. Look at it as an investment. It'll always be special to you, and 50 years later you'll have fond memories of how you saved up to get it.

 

[JWF III]

I'm seriously embarrassed at the behavior of some people in this thread.

Ditto

Yet folks suggest that he sit around and play video games?
Better to strap on that hypothetical 80 pound pack and go hiking on that hypothetical ranch. Not to be rude or anything; but at that young age and high BMI ratio, I'd be more concerned with diabetes or heart disease taking me out long before I would any shtf scenario.

What is that old saying about making assuptions?

He said he played football. He could be in very good shape. Generally speaking, height to weight ratio has little to do with health. Body fat percentage has a great deal to do with it. When I was 15-22, I was the same hieght/ weight as the OP. For much of that time period I ran the 40 yd in 4.9 sec. in full pads. Bench pressed 350+, and squated 480+. The above qoute sounds just like someone talking out of the wrong hole. Very similar to doctors "rules" that generalize too much, and take an individual into account too little.

Referring to the whole "straw purchase" dibocle, any DA would have a very hard time getting a conviction in front of a jury. There are things called gifts, many fathers give gifts to their sons/daughters all the time. I still have quite a few gifts that my dad gave me (as young as 8) that I saved up enough money for half of the "toy".

Referring to the comments about the lack of maturity, just more assumptions. Each individual should be treated as such. I grew up shooting, by myself, after school. If the parents trust the child enough, there is a reason, you should trust that they're making the right decision.

As far as the OP question, I'm kind of partial to the Mini series of carbines. An M1 Carbine would also make a very good choice. And in todays world, the carbine is cheaper to shoot than the .223/5.56. (Sportsmans Guide prices as of 1900 hrs 08/13/09 in stock prices only, 1000 rnds .30 Carbine Rem. UMC= $427 ($.427 per round). 900 rnds .223 Fed AE=$470 ($.52 per round). 1000 rnds 5.56 Prvi (62 gr. SS109)=$560 ($.56 per round).) Any where from $.09-$.13 per round cheaper to go with the carbine. Even if you choose a Saiga in .223 and compared it to a CMP Carbine, you'd come out better with the Carbine at about 2500 rounds or one year with sufficient range time. And CMP can get the ammo price down to $310 per 1k ($.31 per round, savings of $.21-$.25 per round). At that price you'd break even at about 1.5k rounds.

Wyman

 

[gondorian]

From my experience, the M1 carbine points VERY nicely, and is plenty accurate. (shot a couple 1-1.5in. 5 shot groups at 50 yds prone) If I could get one for that price I would do it. It might also be a good idea to reconsider the SKS if you are on a budget.

 

[LJ-MosinFreak-Buck]

Younggunner, I'm sorry that many of the "Old Farts" are picking on you for your age, I'm 19. It's your decision. Do what you feel is right. I would suggest a cheap AK because ammo is cheap if you use surplus (around 150 bucks for 500 rounds from cheaper than dirt) and it's a nice, dependable weapon.

For you nay-sayers, give the kid a break, he wants to learn, and he wants to be able to protect his family should an event like that take place. The world is going to and there's not too much we can do but sit back and watch. Yeah, we vote, but sometimes the outcome isn't favorable. It's his choice on what he wants to do, and it's his choice to decide whether or not he's ready for that kind of situation. But what he's doing right now is coming to us for support. He wants to be supported by others, and I believe we should give him the support.

LJ-MF-BUCK

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

Everybody should own an M1 Carbine just for the cool factor. Mine is a collectible Winchester and is worth considerably more than a cheap AR. However, there are recently made examples that aren't too expensive (Universal?).

I also have a Mini-14 and I have no trouble putting ten out of ten shots on a 10" gong at 200 yards, time after time, hot barrel or not.

Anyway, Younggunner, welcome to THR. And I applaud your ability to articulate well, be proud of it. That was once a given in this country, just a generation ago, but sadly things have changed. Nice to know there are still some articulate young ones among us (actually I already knew that, my daughter is a teacher).

 

[Erik M]

I would go large caliber automatic pistol.

 

[Greybeard7]

Younggunner:

I've only briefly perused this thread, but I would like to point something out that I don't think has been mentioned before. (Please excuse me if I'm wrong.)

I think it's pertinent to your discussion to realize that the M1 Carbine, while very comfortable to shoot, and handy in close quarters, was introduced to replace the 1911A1 pistol for cooks and clerks. The .30 caliber M1 carbine round is not that much more powerful than a pistol round.

I understand and recognize that many deer have been taken with this round, and it is a wonderful weapon, and was used very effectively in WWII.

However, if you really check the ballistics on the round you will find that there are handguns that will deliver close to the performance of the .30 carbine.

Now, whether you prefer a long gun over a pistol, or you are anticipating shots over 25 yards, that could change the equation. (Also, due to your age, the legal aspects of a handgun over a long gun need to be considered.)

Just my $0.02 worth.

GB7

 

[travellingJeff]

Young Gunner - Here's my abridged list of recommendations.


Buy Red Dawn on DVD. Watch it until the DVD melts. Buy another copy, watch it until it melts. Repeat as necessary. Make your friends watch it. Incorporate such sayings as "AVENGE ME BOYS! AVENGE ME!" into your daily vernacular.

Then, buy, rent or borrow "To Hell and Back", the story of one Audie Murphy. I won't give away anything about it, but it's a FANTASTIC movie.

After you watch "To Hell and Back", you'll be DROOLING over the thought that you can own a M1 Garand! Not some commie throw-back, not some peasant rifle, but a real-deal, made in the 40's (or whenever), "Grampa killed Nazi's with it!" US M1 .30 Caliber Service Rifle. Join the Garand Collectors Association and purchase a Service Grade M1 Garand from the CMP (www.odcmp.org). Son, I promise you that once you've got that Garand in your hands, you'll never think about some el cheapo commie gun again. And you'll KNOW what Audie Murphy did with his and you'll KNOW that it's the mindset, skillset and finally, tool set that makes a warrior. You'll have the weapon that Murphy used, so you'll know that the rest of it is up to you! Learn to use that Garand, learn it's sights, put a nice leather shooting sling on it. Purchase the M1 Garand video's from Fulton Armory and become a MASTER with your M1 Garand. That's about the biggest step that a young man of your age can take towards man-hood. The biggest step that doesn't involve a young female, that is, and that's probably not High Road appropriate. ;-)

Welcome aboard, son, and good job acting like a duck and letting the water run right off your back.

 

[AStone]

... good job acting like a duck and letting the water run right off your back.

Man, no kidding. YG, you've taken the high road through some stuff being slung in your direction. Good job.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Welcome aboard, son, and good job acting like a duck and letting the water run right off your back.

I totally agree. There's been a lot of nonsense in this thread about your youth. It seems that on the internet people forget their manners, and lose sight of the fact that there are real people behind the keyboard.

You've displayed quite a bit of maturity throughout all the condescension aimed your way. I'm proud of ya, and think both your approach and response here serves quite the good example.

 

[Younggunner]

Thankyou to everyone that helped me out on this thread and with my choice.
Greybeard- I was already aware of the fact that it was made for replacement of the 1911. And that people in Korea disliked it for bad stopping power. I'm half Korean and Ive been there in the winter. It would not surprise me that not all the gun powder went off in that cold weather.
I think that as of now, I will try for the m1 and if it gets sold from that pawn shop before I have the money, then I'll get an ak... But I'll get an American gun before the commy gun.
thanks
Daniel

 

[BullfrogKen]

When you get a little older (or with your parent's permission) you can rent another movie.


Full Metal Jacket.


The "communists" are learning capitalism. I'll alter the quote a bit to make it more high road . . . but from the movie I quote:

Inside of every communist is an American trying to get out.

Romania is learning about free markets. The AK design is sound. It's really pretty brilliant. This coming from a Marine. None of us feel bad owning a Mauser design bolt rifle. Good designs are good designs. And Romanians are no longer behind the Iron Curtain.

 

[Younggunner]

Hahaha my dad says wait till I'm 18 for that one.