What guns for a newbie training kit,,,

[aarondhgraham]

A week or so ago I started a thread on how I need to buy another single-shot 22 rifle,,,
The purpose of it would be to use when I take new shooters to the range,,,
I dislike putting a semi-auto rifle in the hands of a newbies,,,
It always devolves into a rapid fire waste of ammo.

I still haven't obtained a rifle as yet,,,
But yesterday evening I was having happy-hour beers with some friends,,,
The server at our table is a drop-dead gorgeous undergrad who I have taken to the range several times.

Anyways, she asked me when we were going shooting again,,,
My buddies were all astounded that a pretty girl would even talk to my old and decrepit self.

But then we got to talking guns and shooting in general,,,
The topic centered around my wanting a "set" of guns just for friends to use,,,
The "set" would consist of a pair of matching rifles so one person didn't have an equipment advantage over the other.

I already have this covered in handguns,,,
I have a matching pair of Ruger 22/45 pistols

It tickles me to no end to open the wood case at the range,,,
The oohing and aahing from spectators tickles my ego to no end.

As you can guess we all had our favorites,,,
One of my buds is very well off as far as income goes,,,
He said he would get nothing less than a pair of CZ-452/455 rifles

I on the other hand don't have his disposable income allowance,,,
My choices for the rifles was a pair of Savage Mark-II F,,,
Fine basic guns with a Wal Mart price of $147 each.

For aesthetic reasons I would rather have the Savage Mark-II G,,,
The wood stocks are so much prettier than black synthetic,,,
But they put the price up towards a 2-hundred dollar bill.

In fact I would much rather choose the Savage Mark-I G single-shot,,,
But it doesn't come in a synthetic stock version,,,
And it retails a bit more than the Mark-II G.

My theory is that a bolt gun slows a newbie down,,,
For learning a single-shot is even better,,,
If we are both shooting identical guns,,,
There is no imbalance in advantage.

I will freely admit that I love to create sets of things,,,
So the idea of one rifle case with everything I need for a guest,,,
Has an appeal that sends the OCD side of my personality soaring high.

So tell me good people,,,
If you were going to pair up a set of rifles like this,,,
What rifle would you choose and why would that be your choice?

And hey, as long as we're just theorizing,,,
What handguns would you choose to make the set even better.

Because I'm a cheap and miserly type of guy I'm going the inexpensive route,,,
A pair of Savage Mark-II F rifles and a pair of Heritage SA revolvers,,,
I feel they are accurate rifles and adequate handguns,,,
Remember, this is geared for newbie shooters.

I'm very curious as to your choices and reasoning,,,
Let the fantasizing begin.

Aarond

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[Walkalong]

The oohing and aahing from spectators

I bet.

What rifle would you choose and why would that be your choice?

Why, matching Ruger 10/22s of course. Inexpensive, matches the Ruger pistols, fun to shoot, etc.

 

[aarondhgraham]

Hello Walkalong,,,

Why, matching Ruger 10/22s of course. Inexpensive, matches the Ruger pistols, fun to shoot, etc.

10/22's are fine rifles for sure,,,
But they have a physical effect on me,,,
Every time I shoulder a 10/22 my trigger finger spasms,,,
I simply can't resist shooting as fast as I can pull that danged trigger.

But if you chose that rifle simply because of my Modern Dueling Pistols,,,
It's an absolute perfect match.

If I had unlimited funds for pistols,,,
I would opt for a pair of DA/SA revolvers,,,
A matching pair of S&W Model 18's would be sweet.

Later my friend,,,

Aarond

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[OldBrownDog]

Hmmmm.

Money no object? I'm in for a pair of Winchester 52 Sporting Rifles matched with a brace of S&W K-22 Masterpieces . But I'm less than wealthy, so......

CZ 452/455's, preferably Training Rifles (have to have iron sights) and a pair of Browning Buckmarks or Ruger Mark II's.

Just how I'd do it....

 

[aarondhgraham]

Hello OldBrownDog,,,

Hmmmm.

Money no object? I'm in for a pair of Winchester 52 Sporting Rifles matched with a brace of S&W K-22 Masterpieces .
But I'm less than wealthy, so......

Well, I did say to fantasize away,,,

My friend who passed away had a Winchester 52,,,
It wasn't one of the sporting rifles though,,,
I was a bull barreled bench monster.

She had about 30 rifles/handguns,,,
I stored them for her brother until he could get them out to California.

When he came here to pick them up,,,
He practically had to pry that one from my grasp.

I did take it to the range a few times,,,
I had a handful of sub-sonic match rounds,,,
They all went into the same hole at 25 yards distance.

And like you,,,
I would cherish a brace of K-22 Masterpieces.

Aarond

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[FROGO207]

Bolt Savages are fine choices IMHO. You could go a bit down on the ladder and get a couple H&R Handi Rifles chambered in .22 LR. Those will slowly consume ammo as well. A bonus is after each shot and subsequent reload you have to realign the rifle to take your next shot. Starts on muscle memory for the new shooter. The Heritage revolvers are a must as well.

I must admit that I have the Heritage and an old savage model 120/Marlin model 101 with the cocking ring that you have to pull to cock that I use at first. After a couple trips and some continued interest we pull out the big toys.

 

[aarondhgraham]

Hello FROG0207,,,

I'm chuckling,,,

You could go a bit down on the ladder and get a couple H&R Handi Rifles chambered in .22 LR.

I own an H&R Sportster in .22 LR,,,
I also own a Handi-Rifle in .357 Magnum,,,

Mine have been very nice performers for the money,,,
It's been a while, but I think I paid about $149.00 for mine.

You are correct though,,,
It would be another good choice.

Aarond

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[oneounceload]

A pair of Anschutz target rifles might be nice
or even a pair of older Remington 54 HB target bolt actions

 

[BCRider]

Why do they need to match and be even? We're looking at new shooters, not competition buddies. Isn't the idea to introduce them to as many facets of the sport as you can?

I'd suggest that part of the fun is showing them the sort of variety we have in terms of action styles. So I'd be out there with a single shot target rifle with full on long range peep sights, an old Stevens Favourite or similar, a Henry H001 lever, a Remington 12 or Savage pump action of some sort and finally a decent enough bolt action with a scope. And yes, even the dreaded Ruger 10/22.... but I'd only bring that out at the end and give them ONE magazine....

I'd start them out with a fair size target at 25 then move out to rested shooting with the scoped and single shot peep rifle at 50 or even 100. You'd want to know the settings for the sights for this of course. That'll show them the accuracy potential. Then work with the Henry and pump on their offhand shooting at bigger stuff at 25.

And if they turn out to be pretty good then set up one of the small Caldwell flip up targets at 25. The goal being to see who sets their two targets up before the other. Or buy two of these targets.

This way you stand a better chance of showing them a style which suits their personality.

And don't think that the scope or the semi will automatically win. The kids at my club's Jr .22 program get to shoot all the styles above and more. Their favourite? My Henry H001 lever rifle. It's a hands down slam dunk vote too. Nothing else comes close.

Paper or steel? The same batch of youth are ALL OVER knocking down or ringing steel over simply punching paper. And I challenge you to show me an adult that has ever outgrown this preference.....

 

[Madcap_Magician]

If I was made of money and wanted to introduce a new shooter to the widest variety of firearms possible within reason, I would use all of the following:

CZ452 .22 LR, Henry Golden Boy .22 LR, some variation of an A2-formatted AR-15, Mossberg 590, Browning Buckmark, S&W 617, Ruger Security Six, and Glock 17.

 

[cat_IT_guy]

For pistols I think a Single Six would be hard to beat - makes the shooter think a lot more about each shot.

The CZ452 looks like it would be a great starter rifle, but hardly cheap.

 

[tuj]

You can get a single shot adapter for the Savage MKII.

 

[Ed Ames]

I have come to the conclusion that there is no right answer.

I have taken a few people shooting for the first time. All (putatively) adults. There is no rhyme or reason to what they like. I had someone put down a nicely customized AR and switch to a stock mini-14 because the mini was "more fun." I had one person who found reloading a single action revolver too much work (but was fine with my buckmark), and another guy that once shown how to reload a Ruger Old Army proceeded to use up a flask of FFFg. One person literally wouldn't touch a walnut-and-blued-steel .22 bolt gun but liked shooting an Encore with a brightly colored (red, yellow) laminated stock and a .223 barrel.

I think if I was doing pairs for new shooters it would probably be a pair of Chiappa Little Badgers, with bright (day-glow orange or the like) paracord laced over the wireframe stock. For pistols if the budget allowed I would be tempted to go with SR22s.

Why?

The little badger seems like it would be a fun single shot plinker. The basic angular form will appeal to high-tech sci-fi types, the bright paracord might rescue it for the aesthetes, history minded people could pretend it is like an M6 or an old bicycle gun, and so on. Plus it is light and has an adjustable stock.

The SR22 seems like one of the more practical .22 guns currently sold. At under 18oz it won't have the arm strength issues a Mk or Buckmark can have. The decocker DA/SA action decocker configuration is good for training (you can practice DA and SA pulls depending on the drill) and matches many carry guns. You can get holsters including CC holsters. I have seen new shooters get confused when shooting internal hammer guns with safeties that only engage when cocked. They empty a magazine and suddenly the gun won't safe and they can't see why...the exposed hammer and decocker configuration should eliminate that.

There are probably better choices, but that's what I'd do now.

 

[bannockburn]

I would go with a pair of 10/22s and start them out with only one round in the magazine. Keep it that until they've mastered the basics then increase the number of rounds from there.

 

[vamo]

If pricetag isn't a concern two Henry 22s could serve well in that roll. I like the idea of starting new shooters on something that is not semi auto, you learn more about how a gun functions that way.

 

[FROGO207]

Arrond As it happens I have 10 Handi rifles with 6-7 additional barrels for each. They are fine firearms IMHO and a good way to try a new caliber for a small price.

EVERYONE wants to shoot the 45-70 barrel with the guide gun loads.

 

[aarondhgraham]

Good friday morning gentlemen,,,

Lots of interesting replies this morning.

Why do they need to match and be even?

To feed my OCD characteristics.

We're looking at new shooters, not competition buddies. Isn't the idea to introduce them to as many facets of the sport as you can?

Yes it is, but not all at once,,,
I used to take several different handguns when I took a newbie shooting,,,
Then I discovered I was overwhelming them with too much information and too many options.

I do remember when I was a kid my brother-in-law would take me shooting,,,
He didn't do it very often and it was almost always because My sister made him do it.

He always handed me this old beat-up pump rifle,,,
The rear sight was loose and you could see it wiggle around,,,
He on the other hand was shooting a brand new Remington Nylon 66,,,
It was always in the back of my mind that I could have outshot him if I wasn't shooting the old POS.

Now that may seem like a silly memory to base any decision on,,,
But it always stuck in my mind as a terrible way to introduce new shooters.

But I do acknowledge that my passion for matched sets of things,,,
Even though there is virtue in being evenly equipped,,,
Is simply due to my personal preferences.

Shucks my friend,,,
If you came to my house for burgers,,,
We would also be playing with my matched set of BB guns,,,
Two Daisy Spittin' Image cowboy rifles and two Spittin' Image cowboy revolvers.

For pistols I think a Single Six would be hard to beat - makes the shooter think a lot more about each shot.
The CZ452 looks like it would be a great starter rifle, but hardly cheap.

Yeah, Ruger Single-Six pistols are definitely top-shelf guns,,,
And as you say the SA feature slows a shooter down,,,

You would be looking at 1,200 .00 to 1,300.00 to buy that kit,,,
Matching pairs run the cost up even with cheaper guns.
That's why I was looking at the Savage Mark II F,,,
Two quality rifles for the price of one CZ 452,,,
Heritage SA revolvers rather than Rugers.

You can get a single shot adapter for the Savage MKII.

I didn't know that,,,
I have one for my CZ-452,,,
Now the Savage rifles are looking even better.

I have come to the conclusion that there is no right answer.

Yes my friend, You are very correct,,,
That's why I thought this thread topic might be interesting,,,
I am enjoying reading the diverse thoughts and ideas of the TFL members.

I think you are also on a good path with the Ruger SR-22,,,
I purchased one recently even though I had no need for another .22 semi,,,
It is quickly becoming a range favorite with my friends for just the reasons you stated.

I would go with a pair of 10/22s and start them out with only one round in the magazine. Keep it that until they've mastered the basics then increase the number of rounds from there.

That's a viable suggestion,,,
A pair of base model 10/22 at $227.00 each wouldn't be too expensive,,,
But as I'm not a rich man in any sense of the word I placed an arbitrary limit of $200 for each rifle.

But again, I did say fantasize away.

My only hesitation on 10/22's is personal,,,
I think I might be the only shooter in the world,,,
Who just doesn't have any affinity at all for those rifles.

I dunno why because they are fine fieryarms,,,
I just never warmed up to them.

If price tag isn't a concern two Henry 22s could serve well in that roll. I like the idea of starting new shooters on something that is not semi auto, you learn more about how a gun functions that way.

Then the handguns would have to be a pair of Colt Frontier Scouts,,,
Opening that case would have to trigger an MP3 player,,,
And the built in speakers would play "Big Iron".

Aarond As it happens I have 10 Handi rifles with 6-7 additional barrels for each. They are fine firearms IMHO and a good way to try a new caliber for a small price.

You and a friend of mine are two peas in one pod,,,
He is a single-shot aficionado with a wall full of rifles,,,
Strangely enough he doesn't own even one TC Contender,,,
He says he likes discrete rifles much better than a set of barrels.

He does have one repeating rifle that I know of,,,
But that's only because it's a double rifle.

One criteria I put on my selections is this,,,
No semi-automatic rifles or pistols,,,
Later on but not to start out with.

If I had a ton of money this newbie kit would have these guns,,,
Two CZ-452/455 rifles with a 25" barrel,,,
And two S&W Model 617 revolvers.

But since my discretionary funds for this project do have a limit,,,
I will probably go for a pair of Savage Mark II F rifles,,,
Depending on funds I might go for the Mark II G,,,
The wood stocks on the G version are very nice.

A year ago I wouldn't have said this,,,
For the handguns I would go for Heritage SA revolvers,,,
I recently purchased one as a graduation gift for a shooting buddy,,,
It was all I could afford at the time but it turned out to be a very nice shooter.

Believe me when I say,,,
No one was more surprised at that than I was.

At the current Wal Mart price of $147.00 for the Mark II F rifles,,,
And $159.00 each for the Heritages at Buds Gun Shop,,,
That's $612.00 so after tax and a case of some kind,,,
I could bring this home for $700.00 to $750.00,,,
This is something I could afford to purchase.

If I decided to go for a SA/DA revolver over a SA revolver,,,
Then my choice for price and functionality would be,,,
A pair of Charter Arms Target Pathfinders,,,
Or maybe a pair of Taurus Model 94's,,,
Even used S&W's are too costly.

Even if I don't buy handguns to go in this set,,,
The Savage rifles are still my first and best choice,,,
When I add an inexpensive ($39.95) double rifle case,,,
The price will only be $333.95 plus $27 in tax for a total of $361.00.

I'm enjoying reading your thoughts on this project.

Aarond

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[BCRider]

Ed makes a very good point about not being able to second guess the folks. I'm a sucker for small, light and handy single shot boy's rifles. Don't ask me why because they sure don't fit my tall frame and long arms at all well. But when I stuff a bunch of reloads between the fingers of my off hand and raise an old Crackshot or Model 6 up to eye level I'm all grins.

A newbie friend I took out one time latched onto my Rossi pump rifle and started to re-live all those times as a boy at the shooting arcade at the fair.

It seems that we each find something that clicks for us. Which is why I'm keen on a variety in my own collection.

But you make a VERY good point about not overwhelming the newbie. I know I've easily done that. I meant well when I gathered up an assortment and took it out but once I covered two of the shooting benches with long arms and handguns even I realized I'd over done it....

I feel that there is a happy middle ground though. And both you and your bank account would be happier if you don't spend money on duplicating the firearms in your collection.

This doesn't mean you hand the newbie your own equivalent of that rattle trap Remington though. You can still give them a good solid performing gun that you'd be proud to own. You must be proud of it since you chose to buy it and tune it up. If you're happy to own and shoot it then there's no reason to feel like you're committing a disservice to the newbie by handing any gun you own to them.

It's also worth sitting down with your OCD and show it how often you actually would take a new shooter out and how often one or both of that matched pair will sit at home. A gun which seldom is shot ends up costing a lot since it's your money tied up in something that is seldom used.

 

[aarondhgraham]

Hello again BCRider,,,

I meant well when I gathered up an assortment and took it out but once I covered two of the shooting benches with long arms and handguns even I realized I'd over done it....

Been There - Done That,,,

It's also worth sitting down with your OCD and show it how often you actually would take a new shooter out and how often one or both of that matched pair will sit at home.

This is actually a bit of justification for me,,,
I take friends shooting at least twice a month but it more often 3-4-5 times,,,
I've already been to the range with a friend twice in this July and will be out again this weekend.

I work at a university computer lab,,,
I often take some of my student workers out plinking,,,
Also the restaurant/bar I hang out in is staffed by college students,,,
I've made close friendships with many of them over the years and we shoot a lot.

The range is 20 minutes from my workplace parking lot,,,
We leave at 5:10 or so and are shooting by 5:40,,,
Shoot until about 7:00 and then go for a beer,,,
In summer this happens 2-3 times a week.

But I do hear what you are saying,,,
I could easily use my CZ and have a Henry Acu-Bolt,,,
A Mossberg 340 KC, or a H&R Sportster for my newbie friends to use,,,
I even bought a nice little Crickett rifle for my friends with small children in tow.

Back in February I took a co-worker out plinking,,,
He asked if he could bring his 8 year old son,,,
You should have seen the kids face,,,
When I set out that Crickett,,,
Just for him to shoot.

But you do bring up a valid point,,,
The one thing I can never forget is that,,,
Lots of my ideas are driven by my OCD tendencies.

I have plenty of guns,,,
I don't need to make a set for newbies,,,
Especially one that contains two rifles and two handguns.

But I've got this bug in my brain for this set,,,
It will please me to go to the range with one rifle case,,,
That contains two rifles, two earmuffs, two shooting glasses, and ammo.

Since I already have two sets of matching pistols,,,
Two Ruger 22/45's and Two Beretta NEOS',,,
I'll probably not buy new handguns.

BTW,,,
I'm enjoying the conversational nature of this thread,,,
Lots of people expressing their opinions and no one is trying to change anyone else's mind.

Firearm chat at it's finest!

Aarond

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[BCRider]

But I've got this bug in my brain for this set,,,
It will please me to go to the range with one rifle case,,,
That contains two rifles, two earmuffs, two shooting glasses, and ammo.

I got'ta admit that the cool factor would be off the scale with a setup like that. One case already to go for two folks. No need to putz around looking for all the gear and ammo and packing added cases. Just grab and go. I like it!

Clearly you're doing this often enough that a kit like this makes complete sense. And if it makes you smile to have a matched pair then what the heck, it's YOUR kit after all. My posts so far make it clear that I'd go with a similar quality but different action styles if I were to do such a package. But that's me and you're you.

I should do this with a couple of my own rifles. I help with my club's Jr .22 program once a week. And my Henry H001 lever has become almost a club rifle at this point. I might have had two years of a head start in owning it but there's simply no doubt at all that at this point the kids have easily shot at least 10 times as much through it as I have. I'm happy when they at least let me try it out now and then...

I also recently bought a Henry Mini Bolt at a price which could not be refused. The shorter kid's that simply don't fit the adult size club guns immediately adopted it and have put easily 30 times as much ammo through it as I have. But when they did let me try my own gun I was amazed at how good it is. It might be small but it gives up NOTHING in accuracy. I ended up doing a little bit of a trigger job on it and now it's a dream to shoot.

So when you tell me about the kid's eyes lighting up at seeing a "small guy" rifle laid out for him I can only smile and nod in approval at how you're bringing folks out to shoot and doing it right.

 

[aarondhgraham]

Well, I tried to put it together this weekend,,,

Well, I tried to put it together this weekend,,,
But the fates were against me.

Earlier this week Wal Mart had Savage Mark II F rifles for $147.00 each,,,
I went in armed with my trusty Cabela's card to buy two of them,,,
They didn't have two so I thought I would buy the display gun,,,
But someone had dropped it put a big ding in the stock,,,
I talked to the sporting goods manager about a discount,,,
He said he could discount anything except for guns.

So I said to myself,,, "Self, go ahead and get the other stuff for the kit,,,
So I drove to Atwood's where I had seen nice 2-rifle cases,,,
I was a day or two late as the sale was over,,,
Dang it! I said rather loudly.

I decided the Fates were against me on this project,,,
So I went to a nice watering hole and had a pitcher of beer instead.

So I went home kind of bummed out,,,
But perhaps that is a good thing after all,,,
I started messing around with some stuff I have,,,
And came up with a 1-person kit that might satisfy me.

Plano scoped rifle case,
Henry Acu-Bolt in .22 LR,
Rossi 511 revolver in 22 LR,
New 28-DB ear muffs and glasses,
200 rounds of .22 LR in CCI Plastic Boxes.

Now this set isn't a grandiose as the two rifle/two revolver cased set,,,
But I own all of this equipment and use the Rossi and Henry for newbies anyways.

Everything is simpler (and cheaper) when it's not being duplicated,,,
I think someone was trying to tell me that a few posts back.

The project isn't dead,,,
But I am revisiting the premise.

Aarond

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