Robert J McElwain
Member
Going back to September 11, 2001. What if one half of all the passengers on those four planes had had a CCW license and was armed? How might that have changed the outcome?
Bob
Bob
What If? 9/11
- Thread starter Robert J McElwain
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kingpin008
Member
What's the point of this post, other than speculation on past events? Not even going to go into the touchiness of the subject - the OP has asked a question that will be eternally open-ended in any form. What if? What if this, what if that, what if when, what if how....
Pointless.
Pointless.
Marshall
Member
Things may have turned out differently. I understand why you bring it up but, I can promise you, CCW on airlines isn't going to happen.
Titan6
member
This has been done. Do you really think that the same people who won't allow lighters, sewing needles, nail trimmers, water, etc will suddenly decide guns are a good idea? I am just waiting for the day they make it offcial and everyone has to fly in suspeneded animation.
Robert J McElwain
Member
The point is "Where is the most opportune place for terrorists to strike next"? Most likely not an airplane, but maybe a major bank, because most banks are posted for no weapons. Even better, a government office building where no one is armed.
And, of course, the other side of the dilemma is Oklahoma City. How do you defend against that? Terrorists will strike where we are most defenseless. That's why it's called terrorism.
Bob
And, of course, the other side of the dilemma is Oklahoma City. How do you defend against that? Terrorists will strike where we are most defenseless. That's why it's called terrorism.
Bob
You can't defend against every possible situation.
Part of the tragedy of 9/11 was that those people had hope. They had hope that the plane would land, the terrorists would have their "demands" met, and they'd go home. Flight 93 is evidence of what happens when people lose hope. Rather, their hope shifted from saving their own lives to saving the lives of others. From phone conversations, they knew about the Twin Towers and the Pentagon. I'm sure many of us would say "What do I have to lose?" and fight for our lives and the lives of those on the ground.
Everyone can not be armed nor will everyone always be armed. Battlefields are full of guns and plenty of people still die. A gun is not a magic talisman.
pcosmar
member
Isreali pilots are armed, they don't get hi-jacked.
Folks have been trying to arm pilots in this country for years before 911, but failed, due to anti-gun propaganda.
Had the pilots been armed 911 would not have happened.
Folks have been trying to arm pilots in this country for years before 911, but failed, due to anti-gun propaganda.
Had the pilots been armed 911 would not have happened.
Robert J McElwain
Member
True. But have you ever read of a gun fight breaking out in a police station? Also, a battlefield has nothing to do with terrorism. Terrorism, by definition is not open warfare. It's what weak enemies do.
Bob
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/08/virginia.shooting/index.html
http://www.1010wins.com/pages/295846.php?contentType=4&contentId=368442
The British said the same thing about those pesky colonists back in 1776.
Thumper
Member
Guerrilla tactics are far from terrorist tactics.
What exactly are you talking about?
Robert J McElwain
Member
Clearly, I overstated the case. There is always some bad guy out there who is stupid enough to prove the conventional wisdom wrong.
Bob
The passengers did not need to be armed with guns to stop a few people with boxcutters. They needed to be armed with a different mind-set. Pre-9/11, we thought that if we did what we were told, all would be well. Now we know better. Now I believe the passengers would stop them early, before they took over the aircraft. Some might be lost, most would be safe.
Read what what I wrote again, and read it in context.
Robert said: "Also, a battlefield has nothing to do with terrorism. Terrorism, by definition is not open warfare. It's what weak enemies do."
Replace terrorism with guerrilla wafare/tactics:
"Also, a battlefield has nothing to do with guerrilla warfare. Guerilla warfare, by definition is not open warfare. It's what weak enemies do."
To be clear: I do NOT condone the murder of innocent people.
Sistema1927
Member
Unfortunately, we needed a 9/11 in order to realize what a 9/11 could be.
Prior to that day, the general consensus was that you allowed hijackers to dicate the terms and allow them to land somewhere so that you could either negotiate the release of passengers or kill them on the ground. We never expected that crazed loonies would take control and fly the plane into buildings as a suicide attack.
The Pennsylvania flight demonstrated that this would never happen again. The passengers, after hearing of the three other planes, rose up with whatever weapons they could improvise, and stopped the attackers at the cost of their own lives. Could an armed passenger or sky marshall have stopped any of the first three flights? We will never know, but it is doubtful based upon the fact that nobody expected the hijackers to kill themselves.
We have spent lots of time trying to stop another hijacking by disarming all passengers, but we have spent very little effort in preventing the next attack elsewhere. Thus the terrorists will strike elsewhere, and we won't be ready.
Prior to that day, the general consensus was that you allowed hijackers to dicate the terms and allow them to land somewhere so that you could either negotiate the release of passengers or kill them on the ground. We never expected that crazed loonies would take control and fly the plane into buildings as a suicide attack.
The Pennsylvania flight demonstrated that this would never happen again. The passengers, after hearing of the three other planes, rose up with whatever weapons they could improvise, and stopped the attackers at the cost of their own lives. Could an armed passenger or sky marshall have stopped any of the first three flights? We will never know, but it is doubtful based upon the fact that nobody expected the hijackers to kill themselves.
We have spent lots of time trying to stop another hijacking by disarming all passengers, but we have spent very little effort in preventing the next attack elsewhere. Thus the terrorists will strike elsewhere, and we won't be ready.
crazed_ss
Member
Thank you. The idea that everyone having guns will magically create a "polite society" is wishful thinking at best. I mean, the guys here have guns.. and their neighboorhood looks like Liberia.
*WARNING For Lanuage, Rap Music, and general ignorance"
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-HrucqUaaZE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zraXRN2i4x8&mode=related&search=
Beatnik
Member
This thread is still open?
This statement only serves to undermine the armed & polite society we already here. Whether or not the one thing leads to the other, I'd appreciate you guys not campaigning for the other side.
If there was one thing that 9/11 did, it made us collectively less concerned with the killer's circumstances. Look at John Lee Malvo: he was under 18, and only a constitutional ruling kept him from getting the needle.
This statement only serves to undermine the armed & polite society we already here. Whether or not the one thing leads to the other, I'd appreciate you guys not campaigning for the other side.
If there was one thing that 9/11 did, it made us collectively less concerned with the killer's circumstances. Look at John Lee Malvo: he was under 18, and only a constitutional ruling kept him from getting the needle.
crazed_ss
Member
As was mentioned before, It wasnt the lack of guns that did them in, it was that they were in the wrong mindset. I doubt anyone will be able to hijack a plane with boxcutters from here on out.
Frog48
Member
Exactly. It was the result of people being conditioned to believe that if they're passive and submissive, everything will be ok.
Robert J McElwain
Member
Agreed. Also, today, there are so many Sky Marshals flying around out there, I'm sure a terrorist will feel safer taking the train, or a bus.
If it happens again, it won't be the same. And there is far less chance they'll find a passive citizenry.
Bob
SaintofKillers
Member
I am sorry to say that I dont believe that there will be any great uprising from the passengers if this ever happens again. I think people are still in the same mindset that they were pre -911.
For most IMO 911 was instantly forgotten along with their instant mocha latte' that they got at Starbucks.
I believe there was a situation in Minnesota recently where a group of Arab gentlemen began doing strange things on the plane including standing in front of the cockpit door reading from the Koran.
No one went for the jugular on those guys.
True, there was no incident on the plane but...
On the other hand if an air marshall had jumped up and plugged the guy on the plane the media would hang him out to dry. After all they werent doing anything wrong....right???
It is my understanding, perhaps I am wrong, that these gentlemen are now suing passengers that accused them of acting in the way that they did.
We have made the people trying to kill us the victims.
For most IMO 911 was instantly forgotten along with their instant mocha latte' that they got at Starbucks.
I believe there was a situation in Minnesota recently where a group of Arab gentlemen began doing strange things on the plane including standing in front of the cockpit door reading from the Koran.
No one went for the jugular on those guys.
True, there was no incident on the plane but...
On the other hand if an air marshall had jumped up and plugged the guy on the plane the media would hang him out to dry. After all they werent doing anything wrong....right???
It is my understanding, perhaps I am wrong, that these gentlemen are now suing passengers that accused them of acting in the way that they did.
We have made the people trying to kill us the victims.
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