What is "it" that a barrel likes???

[AJC1]

In our game of hand loading we very often recommend a bullet swap when accuracy is less than desirable. When dealing with lead fit is king and that's pretty well agreed on. In some senerios fit also applies to jacketed, finding that 7.7 jap or 7.62x54r or 303 brit because those guns are old and tolerances changed depending on how the war was going. This same thing continues with very close spec and tolerance match barrels. So what is the it now? I don't believe that a tenths in diameter of the bullet is the current it. Jacket material????

 

[.45Coltguy]

How its fitted to the action and laid up in the stock?

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

In our game of hand loading we very often recommend a bullet swap when accuracy is less than desirable. When dealing with lead fit is king and that's pretty well agreed on. In some senerios fit also applies to jacketed, finding that 7.7 jap or 7.62x54r or 303 brit because those guns are old and tolerances changed depending on how the war was going. This same thing continues with very close spec and tolerance match barrels. So what is the it now? I don't believe that a tenths in diameter of the bullet is the current it. Jacket material????

If you’re talking about competitive shooting, the “latest it factor” is whatever the current top shooters claim it is. You’re hunting unicorns in a herd of jackelopes.
The basic concepts never changed and are still sound: match groove to driving band, keep the velocity in the stability range, and dampen barrel harmonics when possible. Really, a lot of accuracy comes down to breathing control and timing.

 

[Anchorite]

If you’re talking about competitive shooting, the “latest it factor” is whatever the current top shooters claim it is. You’re hunting unicorns in a herd of jackelopes.
The basic concepts never changed and are still sound: match groove to driving band, keep the velocity in the stability range, and dampen barrel harmonics when possible. Really, a lot of accuracy comes down to breathing control and timing.

You left out the idiosyncrasies of the loonies … always wearing the same ball cap backwards, wearing the same underwear to every shoot, the good luck charm, etc.

 

[sugarmaker]

Distance to lands changes with different bullets, seater stem to bullet tip fit can affect concentricity, seating depth can affect powder combustion (I’ve found this true on the lower end of the loading range, not so much as pressure rises). Light bullets recoil less before they leave the barrel if shooting off hard surfaces. As others have said, stability, harmonics, etc.

 

[nettlle]

I'm not an expert on this but I have read barrel harmonics are one of the reasons hand loads can shoot better than factory ammo. I am a believer of this. Maybe wrongly so. The Browning "Boss" system was based on this. It's just another reloading carrot to chase if one wants to.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

You left out the idiosyncrasies of the loonies … always wearing the same ball cap backwards, wearing the same underwear to every shoot, the good luck charm, etc.

As ol’ Vulch would say, “s’Truth, mate!”

 

[W.E.G.]

I think the trick is "seasoning" the bullet mold.

Gotta "quench" your molds in just the right combination of sawdust from poplar trees from the west-facing slope, and factory gear-oil from Ferguson tractors.

 

[Palladan44]

In our game of hand loading we very often recommend a bullet swap when accuracy is less than desirable. When dealing with lead fit is king and that's pretty well agreed on. In some senerios fit also applies to jacketed, finding that 7.7 jap or 7.62x54r or 303 brit because those guns are old and tolerances changed depending on how the war was going. This same thing continues with very close spec and tolerance match barrels. So what is the it now? I don't believe that a tenths in diameter of the bullet is the current it. Jacket material????

My barrels like Barnes Match Burners or them RMR BTHPs pushed by Varget or Benchmark..... Wait, did I misunderstand the question?

 

[AJC1]

My barrels like Barnes Match Burners or them RMR BTHPs pushed by Varget or Benchmark..... Wait, did I misunderstand the question?

Why does it like those over the smk or the Hornaday. The a tip is supposed to be like small production all off the same press line.

 

[Palladan44]

Why does it like those over the smk or the Hornaday. The a tip is supposed to be like small production all off the same press line.

I was being a bit sarcastic. I'm not a benchrest shooter, but I do dabble with quality components as if I was one....

2" group from my Colt Hbar is a great day at 200 yds shooting RMR 69s pushed by CFE223 (of all powders go figure, maybe it's just meters exceptionally well, who knows)

I'm still working on getting to that level with my new Ruger American predator .223, but it's not there yet. But to your point, I have to find out what it likes.

 

[AJC1]

I was being a bit sarcastic. I'm not a benchrest shooter, but I do dabble with quality components as if I was one....

2" group from my Colt Hbar is a great day at 200 yds shooting RMR 69s pushed by CFE223 (of all powders go figure, maybe it's just meters exceptionally well, who knows)

I'm still working on getting to that level with my new Ruger American predator .223, but it's not there yet. But to your point, I have to find out what it likes.

Your in luck if it likes the 69rmr because you can shoot twice as many as smks or burgers. I work harder to make the rmr work because of its value and its cheap enough to test any and every which way and duplicate tests on different days just to make sure... didn't see a box from Jake for my birthday or Christmas but there is always next year...

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I used to have a book written by a frmr Canadian sniper about the work he did in War 2 and “The Troubles” in N.Ireland. There was a brief mention of the work the division armorers would put into their rifles, almost nothing about ammunition except that he preferred the ammo made by Radway. Mostly it was about how to get into a position where he could get the right shot. Breathing control and timing the elements were the keys.
When I was a kid (13-ish) there were a couple of older guys from Eastern Europe who fought with the partizans and the Polish resistance. They talked me into getting an old service rifle and shooting in matches.

 

[Kaldor]

If you’re talking about competitive shooting, the “latest it factor” is whatever the current top shooters claim it is. You’re hunting unicorns in a herd of jackelopes.

There is some truth to that, but for those guys and gals at the very top of their game, very small things win matches. Look at a 284 Shehane vs a 6.5-7 PRC. The difference is subtle, but it does exist. Most of us would never be able to tell the difference (myself included) but when money is on the line, its the best of the best of the best in shooters and equipment at the line. The serious shooters that win test this stuff, and dont wildly change to the newest thing for "reasons".

I'm not an expert on this but I have read barrel harmonics are one of the reasons hand loads can shoot better than factory ammo. I am a believer of this. Maybe wrongly so. The Browning "Boss" system was based on this. It's just another reloading carrot to chase if one wants to.

Its because we can tune out harmonic issues via jump testing, or in the case of the Browning Boss (before its time) you can change the harmonics of the barrel to try and get factory ammo to shoot better. There are several tuners out there now that do similar things and they do work. I have a couple of tuners now, and the first time I really tested it, I could see the group open and close as the tuner settings change. Im not saying its a golden bullet, because good load dev, and accurate loading is still needed, but it does give you the ability to do less messing with jump testing and just try to tune the gun around the ammo, not the ammo around the gun.

 

[Howa 9700]

When one starts reloading, the topic of barrel harmonics quickly shows up........yet almost none of the explanations for it make any sense.....at least not to me. Barrel whip? A barrel has a preference for a bullet? Or powder? Makes one wonder if the barrel should be named Christine.

This gets deep into the weeds........but makes sense. Considering the date.........it may be the origin for a lot of what is now popular thinking.

Optimal Barrel Time Paper

Eric Cortina has a couple videos out on topic chasing lands, etc. Crib notes version is.......if you load to a near max load........to get close to 100% case fill......goal being a consistent powder burn and pressure wave........the fine tuning takes place with seating depth........which times exit of bullet from crown to a time when oscillation shock wave is at chamber end.......a period of calm. Cortina went so far as to suggest one can fine tune factory ammo the same way. Just seat a set of rounds deeper in 3 thousands increments and watch the groups open and close. It is the basis for the screw on tuners, rubber tuners, etc. Timing bullet's release from barrel to oscillations up and down the barrel.

Of course gun and shooter have to be up to the task too. And no doubt quality matters too......won't make up for sloppy technique or inferior or mismatched components. There would be a difference between match bullets and factory 2nds. Can't make a silk purse from a sows ear.

 

[W.E.G.]

That's right, I knew I was forgetting something.

Harmonics!

When I approach the firing line to shoot offhand in the President's 100 match I visulize a blind dude playing a harmonica. The tune is something I can't quite put my finger on. Sounds vaguely like an overlay-medley of a funeral dirge, and Aerosmith's "Honking on Bobo."

"You're first shot for record is a SIX."

nO.... JUST no.

 

[Varminterror]

The biggest enemy of accuracy is the brain of the person pursuing it.

Some barrels are cheap. Some bullets are cheap. A lot of cheap stuff will be inconsistent or will tolerate loose specifications in production to hit their price point.

But…

More often than not, FAR, FAR, FAR more often than not, the frustration and failure in accuracy and load development are all derived from misguided choices made by the guy pulling the trigger and pulling the press handle.

I’m a firm believer, there really isn’t a paradigm where any barrel worth owning will pick ONE bullet and ONE powder and shoot well. No, a cheap factory barrel might not shoot well enough to actually do well with any bullet, and especially not do well with cheap bullets with eccentricities, but out of doing load development for literally hundreds of barrels in the last ~30yrs, I am convinced all of these “it’s 4moa with anything else, but it puts THESE bullets into 1/2moa” unicorns only happen on the internet. Find me a barrel that shoots ANYTHING well and I’ll find 10 loads it shoots well…

 

[GaryL]

I'm not an expert on this but I have read barrel harmonics are one of the reasons hand loads can shoot better than factory ammo. I am a believer of this. Maybe wrongly so. The Browning "Boss" system was based on this. It's just another reloading carrot to chase if one wants to.

I used to know a guy who did vibration analysis for a living. I say used to, because we used to keep in touch fairly regularly, get together when he was in town, and I'm pretty sure he passed away during the pandemic (smoker with health issues). Anyhow, he would use his gear to tune golf clubs and 10-22s. He would figure out how much mass to add and where to dampen the barrel. Said he could easily tune a 10-22 to a ragged hole at 50-75 yds. He lived several states away, so I never got to verify it personally, but he would show/send me pics of him tuning things on his bench, so I had no reason to doubt him.

 

[Varminterror]

I used to know a guy who did vibration analysis for a living. I say used to, because we used to keep in touch fairly regularly, get together when he was in town, and I'm pretty sure he passed away during the pandemic (smoker with health issues). Anyhow, he would use his gear to tune golf clubs and 10-22s. He would figure out how much mass to add and where to dampen the barrel. Said he could easily tune a 10-22 to a ragged hole at 50-75 yds. He lived several states away, so I never got to verify it personally, but he would show/send me pics of him tuning things on his bench, so I had no reason to doubt him.

I would encourage all interested folks in this thread to read Applied Ballistics’ Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting Volume 3, and/or listen to this episode of their podcast.

Applied Ballistics Podcast #55

Many of us - myself included - have messed with “dampening” and “mass influence to harmonics” for many years, and it has always been steeped in voodoo… but with hundreds and hundreds of rounds though this scientific trial (and some fundamental mathematics in parallel), it’s largely proven as voodoo at this point. A lot of folks don’t like the result, but despite a lot of online flaming and complaining, there’s been NO statistically valid stable science done by anyone thus far which has refuted the conclusions drawn in these tests.

 

[Nature Boy]

I would encourage all interested folks in this thread to read Applied Ballistics’ Modern Advancements in Long Range Shooting Volume 3, and/or listen to this episode of their podcast.

Applied Ballistics Podcast #55

Many of us - myself included - have messed with “dampening” and “mass influence to harmonics” for many years, and it has always been steeped in voodoo… but with hundreds and hundreds of rounds though this scientific trial (and some fundamental mathematics in parallel), it’s largely proven as voodoo at this point. A lot of folks don’t like the result, but despite a lot of online flaming and complaining, there’s been NO statistically science done by anyone this far which has refuted the conclusions drawn in these tests.

I haven’t listened to the podcast but I did read a post by Litz where he summarized his testing results re: barrel tuners. I agree with his conclusion that they don’t make your groups smaller.

What I’ve observed however is they do change the shape of your groups. For example, I shot this at 600 yards to see what affect making a tuner adjustment mid match might have.

I started with my optimal tuner setting that I determined previously at 100 yards for a baseline at 600 yards (5 shots). The 10 ring is 6” (1 MOA) and the center ring is 3” (0.5 MOA, did that math for you, you’re welcome )

Next, I moved the tuner 0.005” (out of tune) and shot 5 more

Lastly, I moved the tuner back to the optimal setting and shot 5 more

The group sizes are close enough to be insignificant (0.41-0.34 MOA) but there was a lot more vertical variation in the out of tune setting. The shape of the group matters when you’re shooting at circles for a score. The fattest part of a circle being its diameter, any vertical variation combined with a missed wind shift left or right increases the chance of your shot landing outside the scoring ring.

I realize my “test” above doesn’t come close to the statistical significance of Brian Litz’s and I’m not attempting to refute his results . I’ll have to fall back on my anecdotal experience.

Since installing this tuner I can say with a degree of confidence that my scores in F Class matches have improved. I’ve shot a lot more cleans, my X count has gone up and my position in major matches has improved. I even managed to set a national record. I’m not attributing all of this success to the tuner but it’s additive to all the other variables like load development, rifle mechanics and wind reading.

 

[Random 8]

How effective the spin is at confusing demons that attempt to pull your Godly shot off course. It's at least as good an answer now as it was at the dawn of rifling sometime in the 13 or 1400s. Starting with quality barrels, components, and following all best practices for consistency, and using loads with a reputation for accuracy, you can still get garbage, even keyholes. You can run pulldown trash through a sewer pipe military bore last dropped in the retreat from Stalingrad and get acceptable groups for a given purpose such as casual shooting with reasonably repeatable shots, or even CMP 200 yard matches.

That's what keeps this forum busy and keeps money in the pocket of those who sell components and every sort of magic gadget to make your ammo more accurate. Keep shooting until you find the best, or in my case "good enough for government work." There is no IT, rather an infinite and random combination of its. Good luck, keep shooting!

 

[Nature Boy]

Really, a lot of accuracy comes down to breathing control and timing.

….and reading the wind. That’s what separates a lot of good shooters from the really good shooters

 

[Nature Boy]

You can run pulldown trash through a sewer pipe military bore last dropped in the retreat from Stalingrad and get acceptable groups for a given purpose such as casual shooting with reasonably repeatable shots, or even CMP 200 yard matches.

You aren’t holding the 10 ring with a clapped out rifle and garbage ammo. Sorry, but that’s just nonsense.

 

[Anchorite]

….and reading the wind. That’s what separates a lot of good shooters from the really good shooters

List for the weekend match:

1. flags
2. rifle
3. flags
4. ammo
5. flags
6. loading box
7. flags

 

[SingleActionAndrew]

List for the weekend match:

1. flags
2. rifle
3. flags
4. ammo
5. flags
6. loading box
7. flags

I always have a few things in my trunk for just-in-case match prep mishaps, and one of those items is a spool of weed whacker line to make improvised ECIs. Also camping chair, hand wipes, hat - the things I've forgotten the most!