MikePGS
Member
Not trying to make any sort of war or anything like that. Just curious as to whether or not one action has a distinct and hopefully demonstrable advantage over the other for near/sub zero (degrees i mean, not freezing point).
What is more mechanically reliable in the cold, auto or revolver?
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Firearms and cold weather considerations
By Massad Ayoob
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob79.html
By Massad Ayoob
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob79.html
CoRoMo
Member
No matter how that sentence ends, I think the answer is always revolver.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
I think it doesn't make one whit of difference if both are lubed properly, with the proper lube.
The 1911 fought *WWII & *Korea in below zero temperatures, and it worked just fine in the artic.
(*Two of the coldest wars fought in modern history!)
The Russians used semi-autos exclusively in the coldest regions of the world for half a century, and still are.
I would expect the same from any military semi-auto.
But I would expect the same from any modern revolver too.
Unless either gun was gunked up by frozen low-grade gease or oil that shouldn't have been used in the first place.
rc
The 1911 fought *WWII & *Korea in below zero temperatures, and it worked just fine in the artic.
(*Two of the coldest wars fought in modern history!)
The Russians used semi-autos exclusively in the coldest regions of the world for half a century, and still are.
I would expect the same from any military semi-auto.
But I would expect the same from any modern revolver too.
Unless either gun was gunked up by frozen low-grade gease or oil that shouldn't have been used in the first place.
rc
GregGry
Member
I had my CZ sp01, and 97b jam at the range due to the cold. I had them in the trunk of my car for 14 hours during sub zero temps. When I got to the range with a friend of mine, both pistols jammed (Aka failure to feed, and or failure to go completely into battery. The slides were very "sluggish" when racked. I believe (although I am not 100% sure) I was using gunslick oil for lube, which is a thicker oil. I have switched to CLP, and I will be going to the outdoor range tomorrow. It will be interesting to see what happens.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Again, too much of the wrong oil or grease.
If you expect sub-zero conditions, use light oil, or dry-lube very sparingly.
Remington Rem-Oil is good.
Remington DriLube is good.
Neither will congeal or thicken at below zero temperatures
rc
If you expect sub-zero conditions, use light oil, or dry-lube very sparingly.
Remington Rem-Oil is good.
Remington DriLube is good.
Neither will congeal or thicken at below zero temperatures
rc
Macmac
Member
I'll buy that..
Sato Ord
Member
I carry my pistol under my coat, I can't imagine it freezing there. I keep it clean and lightly oiled.
Personally, if I were somewhere it got cold enough to be an issue with your side arm, I'd move.
My last winter up north was my last winter up north!
Personally, if I were somewhere it got cold enough to be an issue with your side arm, I'd move.
My last winter up north was my last winter up north!
ronto
Member
A revolver with NO LUBE.
jaydubya
Member
"My last winter up north was my last winter up north!"
Mine was in Missoula, Montana, 1938. I thawed out in Panama for three years. Didn't like that either, so now I live in the Southwest corner of the United States.
I always am impressed with Massad's articles, and mystified by the reaction to some to them. This article should not generate much heat. Heh heh.
Cordially, Jack
Mine was in Missoula, Montana, 1938. I thawed out in Panama for three years. Didn't like that either, so now I live in the Southwest corner of the United States.
I always am impressed with Massad's articles, and mystified by the reaction to some to them. This article should not generate much heat. Heh heh.
Cordially, Jack
MikePGS
Member
Thanks for the Ayoob link. Greg, please let us know how it goes 
Macmac
Member
Well the cold is a relitive thing. A theoretical bad guy is going to be in the same cold you are. He will be limited in what he can do as you are.
If it is -40 below he can't keep his hand out of a glove any longer than you can, and he can't. The cold is the main equalizer here, and if you don't know how to deal in -40, nothing is going to save you, but then so long as the BG is the same he is as doomed.
You take -40 and add a little breeze and no hands are going to work for very long, and the longer you hold steel in them the faster the hands are going to freeze..
Re loading a wheel gun is going to be a bigger problem, and no little thin driving gloves are going to amount to squat.
I am not aware of many guns made for real cold. A few hand guns have bigger trigger guards, and I only am ware of two long guns, and both are obsolete. The 30-40 kraig is one and the most modern of the two I know of and the last is the Nor West Gun which is a flintlock. That flintlock was made for the realy serious cold and in it's day was the winter gun of all winter guns, but alas all good things come to an end.
If it is -40 below he can't keep his hand out of a glove any longer than you can, and he can't. The cold is the main equalizer here, and if you don't know how to deal in -40, nothing is going to save you, but then so long as the BG is the same he is as doomed.
You take -40 and add a little breeze and no hands are going to work for very long, and the longer you hold steel in them the faster the hands are going to freeze..
Re loading a wheel gun is going to be a bigger problem, and no little thin driving gloves are going to amount to squat.
I am not aware of many guns made for real cold. A few hand guns have bigger trigger guards, and I only am ware of two long guns, and both are obsolete. The 30-40 kraig is one and the most modern of the two I know of and the last is the Nor West Gun which is a flintlock. That flintlock was made for the realy serious cold and in it's day was the winter gun of all winter guns, but alas all good things come to an end.
Duke of Doubt
member
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The Russians worked long and hard to make an autoloading handgun that could take cold weather the way their Nagant revolver could. The result was the Tokarev, based on the Browning. Russian cavalry preferred the Nagant. So did a lot of other Russians. As one Russian cavalryman put it, 'if anything ever went wrong, you could fix it with a mallet.'
That said, the Finns and the Swedes were satisfied with their Lahti autoloaders, which externally resembled the Luger but which they designed inside and out expressly for cold weather operation. They even had big fingerguards.
That said, the Finns and the Swedes were satisfied with their Lahti autoloaders, which externally resembled the Luger but which they designed inside and out expressly for cold weather operation. They even had big fingerguards.
jad0110
Member
My thoughts too, if properly lubricated. A revolver may be a bit more forgiving of poor lubrication in cold conditions than an auto though.
I have read stories that Korean war vets told of their weapons freezing to the point they were inoperable. Jeff Cooper wrote about some of them. If you have to operate in low temperature extremes I strongly recommend you completely disassemble and strip ALL lubricants from it and run it dry until the temps come back up. I have seen enough mechanisms freeze solid I will not believe any manufacturer's claim for low temperature performance. No lube - no freeze with any type weapon.
LightningJoe
Member
When I was 18 years old, I thought that if you went outside when it was below 32 degrees and breathed the air, you would die.
We don't know much about cold weather in Texas.
But we don't need to.
We don't know much about cold weather in Texas.
But we don't need to.
MP3Mogul
Member
Revolver wins that argument
In the real cold you will have thick gloves that will keep you from getting your finger into the triggerguard on many guns. If you plan to take off the glove, better have a Glock or some other plastic grip or your hand might just freeze stuck to the metal.
wanderinwalker
Member
I like the Glocks in cold weather myself, as they A) Have trigger guards big enough for at least a pair of fleece gloves and B) The trigger won't get bound up by said gloves. They're simple enough with gloves too: No small controls to hit. Just trigger and magazine release; sling-shot the slide to reload.
I've fired my DA revolver in the cold with gloves, and found if the gloves are a little loose, better expect them to get caught and bind up the trigger. I've also found the neat little Kel-Tec PF-9 to be no-go with gloves on.
Also, as mentioned, I can load a bunch of semi-auto mags in the warmth of car or home, go shoot, and either have shot enough or can go back to the car to warm up and reload. I leave the SA revolvers home when it's below freezing, as loading and unloading is too much of PITA, and the swing-out cylinder of a DA is only moderately easier when it's cold enough.
Of course, when it is below 0-F, I stay away from the range. Above that and I'm game 95% of the time though!
I've fired my DA revolver in the cold with gloves, and found if the gloves are a little loose, better expect them to get caught and bind up the trigger. I've also found the neat little Kel-Tec PF-9 to be no-go with gloves on.
Also, as mentioned, I can load a bunch of semi-auto mags in the warmth of car or home, go shoot, and either have shot enough or can go back to the car to warm up and reload. I leave the SA revolvers home when it's below freezing, as loading and unloading is too much of PITA, and the swing-out cylinder of a DA is only moderately easier when it's cold enough.
Of course, when it is below 0-F, I stay away from the range. Above that and I'm game 95% of the time though!
JImbothefiveth
Member
I don't think this can happen with a semi-auto, correct?
Yeah, but not the 1911 that most people on this board might have.
Those GI guns seemed loose for a reason: reliability.
I'll agree re Rem Oil and the like, but still, I'd guess that a gun that has some clearance between all the moving parts will be more tolerant of frost, sticky lube, etc. than a match gun would be.
Note the Luger, a beautiful piece of machinery, valued by collectors, but a military failure. The P38 was less elegant, but worked a lot better. Mine still does, well enough that I trust it for HD.
James T Thomas
Member
sub zero semi
I don't know a thing about them; perhaps I should do some research, but doesn't the Lahti semi auto have a good cold weather reputation?
Considering the previous post about the Luger, P-08, and the similar appearance to the Lahti; then I wonder what design features it has that distinguish it.
I don't know a thing about them; perhaps I should do some research, but doesn't the Lahti semi auto have a good cold weather reputation?
Considering the previous post about the Luger, P-08, and the similar appearance to the Lahti; then I wonder what design features it has that distinguish it.
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