What is the 30 caliber rule in highpower
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Jon Coppenbarger
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It basicly is a rule that came about when the 223 become popular.
At one time I think in the early 90's it was allowed to plug a 223 hole with a 30 cal. plug to see if it touched the next higher scoring ring. The old rule was you used the 30 cal scoring plug to score everything but when the 223 became the dominate cartridge it changed.
Why it changed is a matter of opinion and I will keep mine to myself as it is a old subject to bring up.
The way it stands now is you shoot a 223 you get plugged with a 223 and everything above that gets a 30 cal. as a general rule.
I will pu tit this way if it was still the same for a very good shooter it might actually add up to 5 points a match onto the score more or less. At lest a few more X's
Jon
At one time I think in the early 90's it was allowed to plug a 223 hole with a 30 cal. plug to see if it touched the next higher scoring ring. The old rule was you used the 30 cal scoring plug to score everything but when the 223 became the dominate cartridge it changed.
Why it changed is a matter of opinion and I will keep mine to myself as it is a old subject to bring up.
The way it stands now is you shoot a 223 you get plugged with a 223 and everything above that gets a 30 cal. as a general rule.
I will pu tit this way if it was still the same for a very good shooter it might actually add up to 5 points a match onto the score more or less. At lest a few more X's
Jon
lmccrock
Member
What is the point?
WAY less recoil. Advantage: 223.
Lee
WAY less recoil. Advantage: 223.
Lee
Steve Smith
Moderator Emeritus
You must still plug a .223 hole with a .223 plug. This puts a bonus on the shooter with the largest caliber, DESPITE his accuracy or LACK THEREOF. (Yes, Jon didn't want to wade into this but I will). The 30 caliber rule is sheer stupidity. The game is an accuracy contest, not a he-man contest. Highpower rules allow for up to .35 caliber rifles to be fired, and this round would have a .05" scoring advantage to a .308 or a .30-06 or even a .300 Win mag. Should a rifle in .35 Whelen have an advantage over .300 Win Mag? NO. The rule also, by proxy, indicates that ALL calibers that are fired that day must have a scoring plug sized to fit. That means the pits would have a .308, .223, 6mm, 6.5mm, just to name a few...and pit service WILL show for all the competitors since folks will be passing plugs back and forth. Finally, and most grievous of all of this, is what I mentioned at first. Scoring is based on diameter on the bullet, rather than the center. Does the center of the hole not represent the true aiming and shooting ability of the shooter? If a .308 is fired and breaks the line of the next scoring ring, but a .223 is fired dead center THROUGH the hole, did the .223 shooter not make an identical shot? Are they not deserving of the same score, since the center of their hits were identical?
The 30 caliber rule was invented by sore M1A shooters that were jealous of the accuracy that the mouse gun afforded. Had there been something that the Garand shooters could have done to cheat the M1A shooters back in the 60's and early 70's, I'm sure they would have done it too.
Oh well, doesn't matter that much to me, I beat'em anyway.
The 30 caliber rule was invented by sore M1A shooters that were jealous of the accuracy that the mouse gun afforded. Had there been something that the Garand shooters could have done to cheat the M1A shooters back in the 60's and early 70's, I'm sure they would have done it too.
Oh well, doesn't matter that much to me, I beat'em anyway.
Steve,
I'm not disagreeing with you regarding the gist of your content, but I do want to straighten out the terminology and some of the finer points.
The "30 Caliber Rule" is the way it was previously...as Jon says, all shots get plugged with a 30 Caliber gauge. The rule change REMOVED the 30 Caliber Rule.
Historically, in the past pretty near all calibers in use were 30 cal. You'd get the odd 6mm and 7mm, but they were rare enough that it didn't make sense to get plugs of different calibers. Somewhere around 2000, a proposition to change the rule to "Plug with actual caliber" was floated with the NRA. Comments were invited and in speaking with the NRA Competitions Department after it was all decided, virtually none was offered (for or against). Sad, because when I posted a question regarding the change on the old Shooters.com board, it created the longest thread ever with passionate arguements both ways.
Lesson learned: When a proposal is floated by the NRA, make your feelings known in writing right to the Competitions Dept right away.
Steve, FYI, the 35 Cal limit applies to "Any-Rifle" but there doesn't appear to be any restrictions on "Match Rifles". Funny because I had a recollection that 8mm was the maximum caliber for Highpower (I couldn't find it in the 2003 Rules.
And...don't go getting uppity on the 30 Cal folks..."Oh well, doesn't matter that much to me, I beat'em anyway"...outstanding scores have been fired with the 308, and continue to be. Jim O'Connell won the Civilian SR title not long ago shooting one...and the only 500's ever fired by the SR's were fired with the 308 (or more properly with the 7.62 NATO, since one was using M118 and the other M852).
I'm not disagreeing with you regarding the gist of your content, but I do want to straighten out the terminology and some of the finer points.
The "30 Caliber Rule" is the way it was previously...as Jon says, all shots get plugged with a 30 Caliber gauge. The rule change REMOVED the 30 Caliber Rule.
Historically, in the past pretty near all calibers in use were 30 cal. You'd get the odd 6mm and 7mm, but they were rare enough that it didn't make sense to get plugs of different calibers. Somewhere around 2000, a proposition to change the rule to "Plug with actual caliber" was floated with the NRA. Comments were invited and in speaking with the NRA Competitions Department after it was all decided, virtually none was offered (for or against). Sad, because when I posted a question regarding the change on the old Shooters.com board, it created the longest thread ever with passionate arguements both ways.
Lesson learned: When a proposal is floated by the NRA, make your feelings known in writing right to the Competitions Dept right away.
Steve, FYI, the 35 Cal limit applies to "Any-Rifle" but there doesn't appear to be any restrictions on "Match Rifles". Funny because I had a recollection that 8mm was the maximum caliber for Highpower (I couldn't find it in the 2003 Rules.
And...don't go getting uppity on the 30 Cal folks..."Oh well, doesn't matter that much to me, I beat'em anyway"...outstanding scores have been fired with the 308, and continue to be. Jim O'Connell won the Civilian SR title not long ago shooting one...and the only 500's ever fired by the SR's were fired with the 308 (or more properly with the 7.62 NATO, since one was using M118 and the other M852).
The removal of the .30 cal rule was a huge item of contention several years ago. I remember reading how the world was gonna end because of it 
Anyhow, I always felt, and still do, that a hit is a hit and a miss is a miss. If you want the benifit of a large caliber scoring plug, shoot a large caliber and take the hit of the recoil, and all the other baggage that come along with shooting the big bores.
There have been a few times where the .30 cal rule would have helped me a lot. Once this winter I shot a 498 on a reduced course and both the nines would have plugged with the .30 cal had the rule been in place. I would really have liked to shoot a 500, but I would never have shot that 498 with my M14. So I am still way ahead of the game.
Anyhow, I always felt, and still do, that a hit is a hit and a miss is a miss. If you want the benifit of a large caliber scoring plug, shoot a large caliber and take the hit of the recoil, and all the other baggage that come along with shooting the big bores.
There have been a few times where the .30 cal rule would have helped me a lot. Once this winter I shot a 498 on a reduced course and both the nines would have plugged with the .30 cal had the rule been in place. I would really have liked to shoot a 500, but I would never have shot that 498 with my M14. So I am still way ahead of the game.
Jon Coppenbarger
Member
Sure you would of John.
I found it amazing how easy everything came besides off hand with the ar15 compared to the M1A's.
I found it amazing how easy everything came besides off hand with the ar15 compared to the M1A's.
Steve Smith
Moderator Emeritus
BR, I am just as aware as you about records made by the .30's that still stand. The records are what they are not because of the caliber, nor the rifle itself, but because of the shooter. The essense of what I said is still the same and is the truth, technically speaking, despite my "uppityness." I will continue to improve, and who knows, I might even break one of those records myself.
Steve Smith
Moderator Emeritus
BR, I am just as aware as you about records made by the .30's that still stand. The records are what they are not because of the caliber, nor the rifle itself, but because of the shooter. The essense of what I said is still the same and is the truth, technically speaking, despite my "uppityness." I will continue to improve, and who knows, I might even break one of those records myself.
Well, let's see...it depends on who "em" is and during what match you might be speaking of, but I have records for only a few with knowlege of who was shooting what. If "em" means M14/M1A shooters in general then here's some info.
2003 NTI
O'Connell was shooting an M1A that year I believe. 492-23x
Bob Beckett was shooting an M1A I'm certain. 482-16x
Stephen Smith AR15 475-4x
We could do the same with the President's and NRA Matches as well.
Hipwr223, some of us were using that rule to upgrade 7's and 8's! How'r you likin' this M14 vs M16 discussion?
"Hipwr223, some of us were using that rule to upgrade 7's and 8's! How'r you likin' this M14 vs M16 discussion? "
Chris I have been thru this discussion too many times in the past. I got slapped around like a red headed stepson during the original debates at the defunct shooters.com. I have found it best to never discuss religion, politics, or the .30 cal rule amongst friends.
Chris I have been thru this discussion too many times in the past. I got slapped around like a red headed stepson during the original debates at the defunct shooters.com. I have found it best to never discuss religion, politics, or the .30 cal rule amongst friends.
Headless Thompson Gunner
Member
I'm confused. Why wouldn't you score a shot using a plug that's the same size as the bullet that made the hole? Seems obvious to me that this would be the most accurate scoring method, and also the most fair. So what am I missing? (I'm new to highpower shooting, and I am genuinely curious what factors I may not be considereing)
"But the other guy might be me just because his bullets are bigger than mine" sounds awfully petty to me. The difference in size between a .223 and a .308 is only 0.085 inch. At 500 yards, that amounts to a whopping 17 thousands of one MOA. Does that honestly make a difference? And even if it does make a difference, why don't you just shoot the bigger bullet if you want that advantage?
Taken to its logical conclusion, why doesn't everyone shoot .50s in highpower competition? That'd give you the largest advantage in terms of bullet size and scoring. Does the Barret rifle meet the requirements for Service Rifle?
"But the other guy might be me just because his bullets are bigger than mine" sounds awfully petty to me. The difference in size between a .223 and a .308 is only 0.085 inch. At 500 yards, that amounts to a whopping 17 thousands of one MOA. Does that honestly make a difference? And even if it does make a difference, why don't you just shoot the bigger bullet if you want that advantage?
Taken to its logical conclusion, why doesn't everyone shoot .50s in highpower competition? That'd give you the largest advantage in terms of bullet size and scoring. Does the Barret rifle meet the requirements for Service Rifle?
Quintin Likely
Member
Pure speculation on my part: I think because at the time, .30 calibers were the cartridge. A lot of people didn't take the mouse gun seriously until the bullets to make it a serious XTC threat to the horsepower king M1s and M1As were available. So, since the cartridge wasn't really considered something to use across the course, no one really cared at the time about having the plugs to score it.
.50 BMG would make for a very interesting rapid string.
Steve Smith
Moderator Emeritus
BR, let me know when you get over your myopia and can read the last sentence of my last post.
FWIW, I didn't say I beat em all, but I do beat a fair share, and will beat more. The shooters you pointed out are not only exceptional in their own right, but also the exception to the rule, and the least likely to consider the death of the 30 caliber rule as an advantage.
Funny, I hardly ever see you poke your head out of the sand for more mundane issues, but you are quick to jump in when there is arguing to be done. While you are correct about the score (and I don't know what you and Hpwr223 are talking about), being a devil's advocate about the rule doesn't make you right...it just makes you argumentative.
The current state of the "30 caliber rule" (that is, its absense...thanks BR) is a He Man bonus, plain and simple. If you choose to shoot the larger gun, you get a bonus. Someone, somewhere, thought that it was deserved. I have shot both (M14 and AR-15) and I don't think it's deserved.
FWIW, I didn't say I beat em all, but I do beat a fair share, and will beat more. The shooters you pointed out are not only exceptional in their own right, but also the exception to the rule, and the least likely to consider the death of the 30 caliber rule as an advantage.
Funny, I hardly ever see you poke your head out of the sand for more mundane issues, but you are quick to jump in when there is arguing to be done. While you are correct about the score (and I don't know what you and Hpwr223 are talking about), being a devil's advocate about the rule doesn't make you right...it just makes you argumentative.
The current state of the "30 caliber rule" (that is, its absense...thanks BR) is a He Man bonus, plain and simple. If you choose to shoot the larger gun, you get a bonus. Someone, somewhere, thought that it was deserved. I have shot both (M14 and AR-15) and I don't think it's deserved.
Steve,
When I mention that I never discuss religion, politics or the .30 rule amongst friends, Chris was pointing out my hypocricy for discussing politics with friends at the FL HP site. The difference is that the liberal leftist shooters/gunsmiths that frequent the FL site are not my friends.
None of that was directed at you. Sorry if you misread any of that.
John
When I mention that I never discuss religion, politics or the .30 rule amongst friends, Chris was pointing out my hypocricy for discussing politics with friends at the FL HP site. The difference is that the liberal leftist shooters/gunsmiths that frequent the FL site are not my friends.
None of that was directed at you. Sorry if you misread any of that.
John
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Steve Smith
Moderator Emeritus
John, not at all. I was reading his "7 or 8" jab and wondering what the context was...but it is none of my business.
I'm sure that we could all find material to argue on if we get into politics but thankfully that isn't even allowed here, or I would surely wind up banning myself.
Hey man, I'm back in the US right now...actually in NC. Jon C is shipping some gear out to me so I can start shooting matches again. LMK if you are making it to some of the "big" matches in the south.
I'm sure that we could all find material to argue on if we get into politics but thankfully that isn't even allowed here, or I would surely wind up banning myself.
Hey man, I'm back in the US right now...actually in NC. Jon C is shipping some gear out to me so I can start shooting matches again. LMK if you are making it to some of the "big" matches in the south.
Jon Coppenbarger
Member
John You need to work on your scores!! LOL
Chris I think the Island is moving and effecting your shooting!! At least your taste is shooting wear! LOL
Steve I did not forget you as some of its packed but needed a different box for one thing going out very soon.
You know I got back into this sport about 2 years after the rule changed and remember the still heated debates back then. What I remember is having to use a bigger plug on those little holes but never gave it much thought as I was only seeing 1 or 2 guys using them back in 91 or 92.
A few of us can go back and remember about the same high scores with folks shooting the 14's. There were fewer of them but man they could make those things sing! I still have not equaled my off hand average from those days but my rapid scores have sure gone up. At least when I do not cross fire or do other stupid things.
I did not want to really talk about it as you saw in my first post but I will say this.
I DO NOT CARE, there is nothing I can do about it or care to do about it.
Most of us most likely see many shots every match that would of made the 30 cut but I really have not given it much thought if any at a match other than "Man I need to work on my group".
To Steve, John and yes you to Chris I hope the weather finnally gets better so we can all go out and get some matches in.
PS for you Chris you need more Rain during your maches! LOL
You all are what I consider good friends and hope to see you all on the line.
Jon
Chris I think the Island is moving and effecting your shooting!! At least your taste is shooting wear! LOL
Steve I did not forget you as some of its packed but needed a different box for one thing going out very soon.
You know I got back into this sport about 2 years after the rule changed and remember the still heated debates back then. What I remember is having to use a bigger plug on those little holes but never gave it much thought as I was only seeing 1 or 2 guys using them back in 91 or 92.
A few of us can go back and remember about the same high scores with folks shooting the 14's. There were fewer of them but man they could make those things sing! I still have not equaled my off hand average from those days but my rapid scores have sure gone up. At least when I do not cross fire or do other stupid things.
I did not want to really talk about it as you saw in my first post but I will say this.
I DO NOT CARE, there is nothing I can do about it or care to do about it.
Most of us most likely see many shots every match that would of made the 30 cut but I really have not given it much thought if any at a match other than "Man I need to work on my group".
To Steve, John and yes you to Chris I hope the weather finnally gets better so we can all go out and get some matches in.
PS for you Chris you need more Rain during your maches! LOL
You all are what I consider good friends and hope to see you all on the line.
Jon
Steve,
First of all, I don't get here nearly enough, I know...and I don't have much to offer the IDPA, 3-gun etc folk. If I see something HP related at the top and I can offer something, I do (this weekend I also posted on M14 Flash Suppressors). And stuff at the top is generally stuff that's being discussed a bit...sometimes more controversial...like "the 30 Cal Rule". I could throw in my 2 cents on more "mundane" stuff, but most times by the time I've seen it, it's old news.
Ya know that "uppity" comment was offered in fun and was a sorta reminder that there's folk with all kinds of rifles in the audience here. You wouldn't want any of them to walk away with a bad taste would you? Confidence is a good thing, but some folk might take the "he man" bit the wrong way if they didn't know you.
John,
We need to catch up. I missed that whole thing and am trying to understand what happened. BTW, "hypocrisy" wasn't being pointed out...it was more an agreement with your statement. I'll shoot you an e-mail off board.
Jon,
I got rain going on right now...you happy?
You and I are in agreement on our role in this whole thing. It's there, we apply it, we don't worry about the rest.
First of all, I don't get here nearly enough, I know...and I don't have much to offer the IDPA, 3-gun etc folk. If I see something HP related at the top and I can offer something, I do (this weekend I also posted on M14 Flash Suppressors). And stuff at the top is generally stuff that's being discussed a bit...sometimes more controversial...like "the 30 Cal Rule". I could throw in my 2 cents on more "mundane" stuff, but most times by the time I've seen it, it's old news.
Ya know that "uppity" comment was offered in fun and was a sorta reminder that there's folk with all kinds of rifles in the audience here. You wouldn't want any of them to walk away with a bad taste would you? Confidence is a good thing, but some folk might take the "he man" bit the wrong way if they didn't know you.
...that was no jab at all...or actually a jab at myself saying that I'm not at John's level and would get benefits from the 30 Cal Rule more often upgrading 7's and 8's versus John's 9's to 10's and 10's to X's.
John,
We need to catch up. I missed that whole thing and am trying to understand what happened. BTW, "hypocrisy" wasn't being pointed out...it was more an agreement with your statement. I'll shoot you an e-mail off board.
Jon,
I got rain going on right now...you happy?
You and I are in agreement on our role in this whole thing. It's there, we apply it, we don't worry about the rest.Steve Smith
Moderator Emeritus
Chris, I'm sure we ALL are in agreement, despite our disagreement with the rule itself. I am first and foremost an honest competitor and even though I disagree with the "post 30 caliber rule rule" I still apply it and expect it to be applied, as we all should.
On He Man here's my take: I have rarely heard a Master or High Master (especially the latter) M14 shooter mention that it's a "man's rifle" or the only "real rifle." Usually they have grown tired of that comment by then and are only interested in their own growth in the sport, rather than macho posturing.
All I care about when hearing another person talk about their shooting prowess is how they shoot, not what the shoot. Well, as long as it's a Service Rifle.
On He Man here's my take: I have rarely heard a Master or High Master (especially the latter) M14 shooter mention that it's a "man's rifle" or the only "real rifle." Usually they have grown tired of that comment by then and are only interested in their own growth in the sport, rather than macho posturing.
All I care about when hearing another person talk about their shooting prowess is how they shoot, not what the shoot. Well, as long as it's a Service Rifle.
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