What is the ARGUMENT for why one in chamber is dangerous?

[Hungry Seagull]

I have a feeling that there are those who will carry chamber and those who carry without chamber and those who choose revolvers.

In my Career Ive been placed into astounding situations with life on the line either someone else's or my own with seconds already past due and the rest of distance/time running out extremely rapid.

As far as I know Ive had "Just enough" or "Missed by ..thismuch.." or perhaps scraped something but no one got hurt.

Slow is fast and fast is slow I say. Do the best you can with what you have.

Cheers.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

No, the question is, why DON'T they get a different gun? One that makes them feel comfortable chamber loaded.

The point is, many people that don't carry chamber loaded cite concern over impossibilities (spontaneous discharge, anyone?) then they admit they have NO clue about the mechanics and safeties of a given gun.

If you decide to carry a gun with an empty chamber, then at least know the REAL reasons you are doing so.

I KNOW it's impossible for any gun to go off (as designed - with force through the barrel) if there is not a round in the chamber. I think that is the "REAL" reason for many folks to carry without a round in the chamber.

Beyond that, I personally choose to avoid the word "impossibilities".

I think that's exactly what this 'difference of personal behavior'* is about.

Your gun, handled properly, is likely to be "safe", but don't tell me any gun with a round in the chamber "can't go off". Guns are made to go off. Fingers fumble. Stuff hits switches and triggers.

The scenarios many of you give for Condition 1 ... "you've been hit hard enough to have just one arm incapacitated..." COULD easily launch your gun out of its holster. Or is your holster stronger than your arm bones?

Unless someone is trying to tell you what to do, why begrudge a person who wants to add an extra level of safety for themselves?

AGAIN! I AM ALL FOR CARRYING IN CONDITION ONE!





*this thread is NOT an "argument", it's a series of lectures interspersed with answers to the OP's question. A GREAT question by the way. Getting us all thinking and talking is great for us all to determine and practice our preferences.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

"Probably because anyong who does not carry with a round in the chamber feels perfectly comfortable carrying a gun that requires loading a round into the chamber before use.

I do not understand what is wrong with that."

Because it is a false premise.

It's been an interesting discussion, but I think it's pretty much reached its conclusion.

How in the heck is this a "false premise"?

I do not think you can argue that a person CANNOT unholster a gun and rack the slide to chamber a round and shoot a bad guy.

I CAN argue that a gun with a round in the chamber can go off when the user did not want it to go off.

AGAIN! I AM ALL FOR CARRYING IN CONDITION ONE!

 

[ReadyontheRight]

Actually - if you take the logic of "being prepared" to its logical conclusion, you should carry a loaded gun in your hand at all times. You have already given up a lot of reaction time by putting the gun in its holster.

I hope you all understand I am trying to make a point.

 

[X-Rap]

I hope you all understand I am trying to make a point.

The point you seem to be making is that you just added a little more time to a situation that has little to spare.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

And what is time?

We are all a heartbeat from the other side. And we will go there someday.

Dont do it while pre-occupied and lost your own 360 degree awareness as you go about your life.

 

[X-Rap]

We are all a heartbeat from the other side. And we will go there someday.

If I do it with an empty gun I want the barrel to be hot

 

[ReadyontheRight]

I hope you all understand I am trying to make a point.

The point you seem to be making is that you just added a little more time to a situation that has little to spare.

So why not just carry a loaded gun in your hand at all times?

 

[David E]

I do not think you can argue that a person CANNOT unholster a gun and rack the slide to chamber a round and shoot a bad guy.

I have. Only one arm available, etc, etc, etc, etc.

I CAN argue that a gun with a round in the chamber can go off when the user did not want it to go off.

Then get the gun fixed and/or get more training.

So why not just carry a loaded gun in your hand at all times?

Are you serious ?!?!

 

[slim76]

I used to never carry with one in the chamber until I received on the job training. My argument for it was that it was dangerous (hehe). The real ARGUMENT though was that in the back of my mind I did not have the confidence in my gun handling skills. The confidence and also realistically looking at the very ugly situations one can find themselves in is what changed my mind.
I can understand the fear some people have about carrying with a round in the chamber. It was a little "weird" at first, but I received very good training. I am very strict at keeping my freaking finger off the the freaking trigger. The reason I carry with a round in the chamber is it simplifies drawing and firing. There are times when your attacker can be upon you, on you, pressing up against you or down on you. How will you rack the slide then? Granted it can be practiced to rack the slide rear sight against your holster while drawing or against a pocket, belt buckle, etc. But you kind of lose the advantage of surprise (i'm speaking of conceal carry). The manipulations of what you are doing with the gun becomes of sudden interest to your attacker. On the other hand if you don't need to rack the weapon the loud flash, noise, and impact become the sudden interest to your attacker who may not even be aware you are armed.
This said, I think there are methods of racking the slide while drawing which followed consistently can be very quick. I just think about what happens if one of my arms isn't moving, it can still be done one handed, but that takes a lot of training to become proficient.

I carry my glocks with a round in the chamber only if they are in a holster because they have lighter triggers than some of my other carry guns. And maybe I really don't have to worry, but I still do. If I carry without a holster in a pocket, etc, I do not have a round in the chamber. I will confess that I carried the G26 in the front of my pants waistband (oh the horror) for a week before buying a holster for it and I had no round in the chamber. I watched a video of a man in a courthouse holstering his glock with a finger on the trigger, he shot a hole in his leg and wounded the man standing behind him.

Also I am very observant (checking every time) when holstering weapons in concealment holsters (as opposed to duty holsters), that there is nothing (clothing, end of belt, etc) which will catch on the trigger. The duty holster is away from the body and designed not to interfere with your clothing, gear, etc. Concealed holsters tend to be very close to your body where your clothing and accessories can interfere, so keep that in mind while inserting the weapon into the holster.

 

[David E]

I used to never carry with one in the chamber until I received on the job training. My argument for it was that it was dangerous (hehe). The real ARGUMENT though was that I did not have confidence (training) in my gun handling skills.

And there it is.

.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

I used to never carry with one in the chamber until I received on the job training. My argument for it was that it was dangerous (hehe). The real ARGUMENT though was that I did not have confidence (training) in my gun handling skills.

And there it is.

So...you want every untrained person to carry with a round in the chamber?

Or do you want a law that everyone who carries be trained to YOUR requirements and they be REQUIRED to carry with one in the chamber?

YET AGAIN! I SUPPORT CARRYING IN CONDITION ONE.

I am making logical arguments posted above to answer the OP's question.

A gun without a round in the chamber WILL NOT fire. A gun with a round in the chamber CAN fire unexpectedly.

It's pretty simple.

Carrying without a round in the chamber is a useful way to be prepared for a non-"Quick Draw" situation for many people.

If you need an anecdote...Remember the student who ran to his car to get his gun to stop the idiot from shooting up a community college? The story the media wouldn't cover?

If Condition 3 allows a person to be comfortable with carrying. Or work their way into carrying in condition 1. Why make them feel bad about it?

Suggest training. But why go so far down the road to make people WHO ARE ON YOUR RKBA SIDE feel like an idiot just because they do not want to perform a quick draw kill?

 

[ReadyontheRight]

I do not think you can argue that a person CANNOT unholster a gun and rack the slide to chamber a round and shoot a bad guy.

I have. Only one arm available, etc, etc, etc, etc.

OK - I guess I stated this wrong.

I do not think you can argue that a person CANNOT POSSIBLY unholster a gun and rack the slide to chamber a round and shoot a bad guy.

In other words -- It is POSSIBLE for a Condition 3 arm-bearer to be just as effective as a Condition 1 arm-bearer.

I CAN argue that a gun with a round in the chamber can go off when the user did not want it to go off.

Then get the gun fixed and/or get more training.

How would "more training" or a "fixed gun" account for a situation where your shirt gets untucked and catches on your trigger, setting off the trigger and/or safety when un-holstering?

In other words -- It is IMPOSSIBLE for a Condition 1 arm-bearer to be as safe as a Condition 3 arm-bearer.

I am NOT SAYING THAT A PERSON SHOULD CARRY ANY CERTAIN WAY! I AM ANSWERING THE &*$%^# ORIGNIAL QUESTION!

And, I guess, trying to point out the slippery slope of how easy it is to infringe upon others' rights with your opinions or training.

In other words -- Don't we all have the right to bear arms however we darn well please? (BOR #2)

 

[David E]

So...you want every untrained person to carry with a round in the chamber?

Ok, so you're saying that anyone that carries chamber empty is "untrained".........

Well, ok !

 

[sacp81170a]

Anything that touches the trigger can discharge a round.

Glocks with a "light trigger pull"?

????

Where have all these Glocks that are so hazardous been? The Glock has generally been maligned for its long hard trigger pull as it comes from the factory. It's not extraordinarily bad, but a 5 or 7 lb. pull is NOT light. One might make the same excuses for not carrying all six chambers of a double action revolver loaded, and one would be just as wrong.

For those of you who carry without one in the chamber, you better practice always having both hands free to get one in the chamber. Of course, if your plan is to "pistol whip" the bad guy into submission, then carrying without a round in the chamber would be safer.

 

[NavyLCDR]

So that when someone goes to the GunShow/GunStore and wants to pull it to check fit on a holster or show it off to some Nimrod we don't get a ND smeared across the headlines.

You don't buy a holster for the gun you are carrying for self defense. You buy a holster for the gun you take to a gun show unloaded and cased. You leave your carry gun in it's holster at the gun show.

The same is true for doing anything in public with your carry gun. You just don't mess with it. If you do mess with it, out of it's holster, in most states it's called brandishing. If you are going out with an express purpose of doing something with your carry gun, it leaves the house unloaded and cased. You either carry a back up gun or you have to "bite the bullet" and not carry a self defense gun for that period of time.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

ReadyontheRight: "So why not just carry a loaded gun in your hand at all times?":

Excellent point.

I strongly suspect that a lot of the self-appointed tactical gurus here, and I won't mention any names, either never have carried, or else seldom carry outside their own den.

Carrying a loaded gun (not "unloaded") without a round in chamber is perfectly adequate to deal with nearly every threat we may face where a gun will be useful. The tiny fraction of improbable situations, where we are attacked without warning at close range, are barely worth thinking about -- and if we want to think about them, then yes, as you say -- why not carry a loaded gun in your hand, if you're that fearful of being jacked without warning?

Second, there exist what I will delicately refer to as "awkward situations" where a gun with a chambered round could be a significant hazard. Carry often enough, and you may encounter such a situation. Enough said.

The Israelis, who have used a gun or two over the years, carry with an empty chamber, by the way.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

I didn't read all five pages, but it's only dangerous if you do one of the following:

1. Carry Mexican style (or in a holster which does not fully cover the trigger guard), or
2. Violate one of the basic rules of gun safety, or
3. Have an OLD handgun which is not drop safe.

I don't do any of those, so I keep one in the pipe, and yes that's even with SmartCarry. However, I would not use a single action C&L with SmartCarry - too much family jewelry at stake there. DA or "pre-sprung" DA only for SmartCarry. In my case, pre-sprung DA (Kahr MK9), with a long trigger pull.

 

[22lr]

Well guys I also carry a knife for personal defense and feel perfectly protected. I carry in a manner that is safe for me and I hope you carry in a manner that is safe and works for you. I just dont carry a chambered gun. I also have never even been in a situation were a escalation of force besides presence was needed so I feel no need to make a worthless safety risk on my part. Im not a cop, heck 50% of my time im not at home is on a collage campus so my need to carry a chambered gun just doesnt exist the same as a cop. To each his own.

I would rather you guys carry a chambered gun if it made you feel better, me I dont just because id rather not put a bullet in the floor. I know my limits and I dont think you guys understand that everyone has limits were they feel comfortable, mine is with an unchambered weapon. Anyways yall have a good day because im done here. To each his own, and not carrying a chambered gun is completely logical and in my mind more safe for me.

 

[scottgun]

The OPs question is:
"What is the ARGUMENT for why one in chamber is dangerous? "

And the answer is: because the gun will fire when you pull the trigger

And the reason people who carry a handgun for self defense to keep one in the chamber is because: the gun will fire when you pull the trigger.

 

[scottgun]

Nobody is telling anyone what the must do, or they way they have to carry.

When the question gets asked about carrying one in the chamber, its usually a novice asking the question. So its a matter of educating a novice about the safety and tactics. The safety piece of it is to assure someone that a holstered and chambered gun will not spontaneouly go off. Sure if you unholster then drop a chambered gun, then try to catch it mid air, you could grab the trigger and the gun will go off. Along the same lines, if you drop a steak knife, it is not advised to try to catch it or deflect its fall with your foot. So granted it maybe safer to carry without one in the chamber. However as one gets more familiar with their firearm and it's use, this concern usually diminishes. This is mostly due to the idea that the tactics dictate that a handgun carry for self defense should have a round in the chamber. For many of the reasons already listed, it is far more tactical to carry one in the chamber, and most if not all experienced self defense experts will say that carrying one in the chamber is the way carry.

But I don't think that anyone here is telling a person that is inexperienced, unsure or not confident with their handgun that they should carry a round chambered. Do whatever makes you feel safer. But if you post a question on the internet, you are going to a reply that is based on the greater experience of others.

I had a friend who got into carrying a little before I did. He would carry mexican style with FMJ practice ammo without one loaded in the chamber. After buying a holster for him, and showing him a few of these arguments, he now carries with one in the chamber while it's in the holster. He still carries with practice FMJ ammo though.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Carrying...gun ... without a round in chamber is perfectly adequate to deal with nearly every threat we may face where a gun will be useful....

And on exactly what do you base that contention? I've seen no evidence to support its.

The likelihood is that almost all of us will get through life without ever having to use a gun in self defense. The probability of needing a gun is minuscule. But, based on my training at Gunsite and other places, it seems that the view is that in the very unlikely event I do need my gun, the odds of needing disparately and quickly are substantial. These are independent variables.

...The tiny fraction of improbable situations, where we are attacked without warning at close range, are barely worth thinking about...

And on what do you base this contention? Such things do happen. I know private citizens to whom they have happened. And while they might not happen often (then again, you won't need a gun in the first place often), but they were most assuredly "worth thinking about" to the folks to whom they happened.

...not carrying a chambered gun is completely logical and in my mind more safe for me. ..

I'm glad that in your mind it's more safe for you, and you should certainly make your own decision about how to carry your gun. But carrying without a round in the chamber is not "completely logical" because it is based on the false premise that when you do need your gun, if ever, you will have both hands available or otherwise have the ability and time to chamber a round.

The telling factor is that, AFAIK, all of the major schools or trainers, Gunsite, Front Sight, Thunder Ranch, Chapman Academy, Louis Awerbuck, Walt Marshall, Bennie Coooley, etc., train based on carrying a round in the chamber.

 

[X-Rap]

I would propose a test. Take two Israeli commandos and time them. One shoots with a loaded gun the other empty. Then reverse the process.
I would also check the accuracy of each shooter on the different methods.
Any guess on the results? I would also like to hear how some former Israeli that now teach and work in the US carry and what made them change if they did.
In my state an empty chamber constitutes an unloaded gun.

 

[Kleanbore]

Carrying a loaded gun (not "unloaded") without a round in chamber is perfectly adequate to deal with nearly every threat we may face where a gun will be useful.

Well, there's the Tueller drill...

In my CCW training, it was stressed that deadly force is justified if and only if the serious threat is imminent (A, O, J), and if and only if one cannot avoid, evade, or safely retreat, and at that point, and no sooner, one may produce the weapon. The demonstrations showed virtually no time to even cycle a slide, much less confirm that the round is chambered and the gun is in battery.

I'm not quite sure what other situations might arise in which a gun may be useful, except for a peace officer or soldier.

The tiny fraction of improbable situations, where we are attacked without warning at close range, are barely worth thinking about --

Improbable, yes indeed, but so is the chance of needing an airbag. Tiny fraction? You'll have to help me understand that. I think the chance of being in a position to produce the weapon in any other situation is by far the smaller fraction.

and if we want to think about them, then yes, as you say -- why not carry a loaded gun in your hand, if you're that fearful of being jacked without warning?

Good way to get shot or send everyone running.

Where I live, the gun must be concealed and it must not be "exhibited in a dangerous or threatening manner" except when the use of deadly force is justified, except for police officers.

I carry a DAO revolver, always holstered. Were I to choose a semi-automatic it would probably be DAO or long-pull, with a round in the chamber. I personally worry about having the time to disengage the safety on a 1911, but for those who can do so safely and very quickly, I think chambered is the way to go.

The county police where I live carry their sidearms with rounds chambered, and every one of them with whom I've spoken who carries a semi-automatic for back-up keeps a round chambered in it.

Now, if one is in the bedroom, that's probably a different story, most of the time.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

fiddletown: "And on exactly what do you base that contention? I've seen no evidence to support its."

Direct personal experience. I've carried and used firearms in self-defense, and have had plenty of time to observe and analyze the threat, each time. Perhaps you live in a dark world of psychotic grandmothers, just itching to creep up on you with a plate of cookies and then, when you least expect it, draw a .44 Magnum revolver on you from two feet away. That just plain does not happen around here. Far more likely is a scenario where my car quits in a sketchy neighborhood and I start to draw local attention, or I'm hiking in the woods and stumble onto an illegal grow harvest in progress. Plenty of time.

fiddletown: "The likelihood is that almost all of us will get through life without ever having to use a gun in self defense. The probability of needing a gun is minuscule. But, based on my training at Gunsite and other places, it seems that the view is that in the very unlikely event I do need my gun, the odds of needing disparately and quickly are substantial. These are independent variables."

I hear you, but I just plain disagree. I just don't think the world works like that. And I've lived and travelled in a broad variety of settings. If someone wants to ambush me, they'll do it from distance with a rifle, or they'll hit me at close range at a time and place where I can't carry at all. Neither of those scenarios allow for pistol defense, at all.

fiddletown: "The telling factor is that, AFAIK, all of the major schools or trainers, Gunsite, Front Sight, Thunder Ranch, Chapman Academy, Louis Awerbuck, Walt Marshall, Bennie Coooley, etc., train based on carrying a round in the chamber."

And in my opinion, they are selling a lifestyle. Real life just isn't like Gunsite, at least around here. No offense to Gunsite, some good people work there.