What is this gibberish about 45ACP not shooting flat?

[lawboy]

You hear it all the time, how the 45ACP has a "rainbow-like" trajectory. How past 25 yards it is hard to hit anything with it due to hold over problems. How 10mm is sooooo much easier to hit with at 100 yards than 45ACP.
I own many 1911s in 45ACP. 3-inch. 3.5-inch. 4.25-inch. 5-inch. 6-inch. I have fired them all extensively at 100 yards. I owned one 4-inch 10mm revolver for several years and have fired several 10mm autos at 100 yards. My personal conclusion: You can hit a man-size target easily with ANY OF THEM.

To wit, I have several steel plate targets that are 12-inch-diameter rounds. With my 6-inch 1911 45ACP I can zero the gun at 20 yards to strike three inches above the front sight. With this zero, I can hold 12 o'clock on a 12-inch plate at 10 yards and consistently hit the plate about 2 inches above the 6 o'clock position. Consistently as in 80+ hits out of 100 shots.
With any of my 3-inch guns, which have fixed sights, I have to hold about 5 inches over the top of the plate but with this hold I can consistently hit the plate. Consistently means 4-6 hits out of an 8-shot magazine.

With the 10mm revolver, zeroed precisely like the 6-inch 45, I can hold 12 o'clock on the plate and hit consistently about slightly below center plate.

Now, clearly the 10mm is shooting flatter than the 45ACP. BUT, not that much flatter, AND, the 45 loads are reduced while the 10mm loads were full loads. My main point is that either cartridge will put shots on a human torso without difficulty at 100 yards, so why all the denegration of the 45's abilities at long range?

 

[Cards81fan]

While I agree with you from a practical perspective, the .45 does drop at distances when compared to other rounds. This is due to the physics of a heavier bullet moving at a slower velocity.

According to Speer, here are the numbers on their Gold Dot cartridges, as packaged:

               Velocity at
               Muzzle       50 yards     100 yards
45 Auto 230gr   890           845          805
40 S&W 180gr   1025           956          902
9mm +P 124g    1220          1085          996

                Trajectory if sighted at 25 yards
                25 Yards        50 yards     75 yards    100 yards
45 Auto 230gr   0.0                -2.0        -7.1       -15.3
40 S&W 180gr    0.0                -1.3        -5.0       -11.2
9mm +P 124g     0.0                -0.8        -3.3        -8.0

I could not find statistics on a 10mm, but I am sure it would be somewhere bewteen the 9mm and .40

I was fairly surprised at the differences, actually, with over half a foot difference at 100 yards for the.45 versus the 9mm. But on the whole, I agree with you. No practical handgun-using civilian would engage a target at 50 or 100 yards; for the vast majority of engagements, there is no real-world difference.

 

[lawboy]

That is exactly half of my point -- at normal distances there is no practical difference. Now, the other half of my point is that even at long range, if you know your gun, there is no significant difference in the ability to hit threat targets (these are defensive calibers after all) between 45 and 10mm. I mean, if I can hit a 12-inch plate effectively, a human being should also be a doable target with either cartridge, right?

 

[CoRoMo]

Ever watch hickok45 hit the 230yard gong with his pistols?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2cnop15VA8
What's the bullet drop on that?

 

[Cycletroll]

Yeah, but there is a plus side to that heavier bullet: it loses far less energy at distance too. Compare a 230gr at 100 yards to 180gr .40 or 125gr 9mm. The .45 still packs a wallop. Doesn't slow down nearly as fast.

 

[Walkalong]

You can hit a man-size target easily with ANY OF THEM.

Quite true. Smaller targets than that actually.

 

[CoRoMo]

Looks like we've talked about this before:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=6087119

Originally Posted by tipoc
The figures here are taken from Bob Forker's book:

Bullet drop at 200 yards from a 10mm CCI TMJ 200 gr. bullet is -72.1". Mid range trajectory is 19.1".

For a 200 gr. 45acp load from CCI drop at 200 yds. is -87.1". Mid range trajectory is 23.4".

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

"Rainbow-" like trajectory is probably overstating it a little, but it is a matter of physics that slow, heavy, blunt bullets do not shoot as flat as fast light ones. Practically, though, this matters little, until you get out past ~100 yards.

 

[Publius1688]

+1 to cycletroll.
I'll take the heavier bullet any day.

 

[browningguy]

I'd say twice the drop at just about every range is getting close to "rainbow trajectory". But that's just me, and I even like the .45.

 

[gun guy]

um yea the 45 auto shoots a lil flatter than a mortar round, at 100 meters the 45 has more arc than a rainbow. the 9mm is alot flatter thru 50 meters but its falling off in energy by 100 meters. thats why i prefer the .357 magnum. if i have to engage targets at 100 meters with a handgun, it will do it. there is (or was) for years an old gong at the 400 meter mark at the range. i been ringing that gong for 20 years with my model 29 smith with a 4in bbl. many times i've seen a guy with a scope sighted rifle, burn a box of bullets trying to hit that gong, on the average i can hit it 4 out of 6. nothing wrong with learning long range pistol shots, even the old cap n ball 1860 army was know to make shots between 85-100 meters. many good shots, with scope sighted thompson centers can make some serious long range shots. a 308 barrel and a good rest. 600 meters is very possible in the right hands.

 

[gearhead]

Keep in mind, weight has NO effect on how fast the bullet falls.

Remember, a 230 gr. .45 and a 115 gr. 9mm both will hit the ground at the same time because they fall at the same rate. It's just a matter of how far from the muzzle the bullet gets in a given amount of time, since the drop is dependent purely on time.

 

[Magnumite]

Taking into consideration standard weight and velocity cartridges for the 10mm and 45 ACP, the 10mm has a considerably better trajectory. The two cartridges aren't even in the same class. The 10mm is a young 41 Magnum for all intents and purposes.

You stated you are sighted in 3 inches high at 20 yards with a reduced load (assume 230gr@800 fps) with the 45 ACP. That makes your 45 ACP pistols zero'd at better than 75 yards. That's about a 6" drop at 100 yards which is about what you indicate. Your midrange will be about 4" high. A lighter bullet at lower velocity would yield even a less desirable (more rainbow) trajectory.

A 10mm sighted the same way (180 gr@1200 fps) is actually over 3" high at 100 yards. Assuming you are stiking low at 100 yards as you state, you're less than 1.4" high at 20 yards and only have a midrange value of 1.6".

I agree a man sized target is readily hit out to 100 yards and even further with a 45 ACP. And judging from how you sight in your guns, you are using those adjustments with the trajectory to get your hits, which are very good, by the way. You are familiar with your load and guns. As it should be.

The differences really stand out when you are using a 25 or 50 yard zero, which is where the 45's and 10's are usually zero'd. Using a 50 yard zero for both guns and the same ammo as above:

Caliber 25 yard 50 yard 100 yard
45 ACP + 1.4" -0- -13.8"
10 mm + 0.4" -0- - 6.5"

No contest.

 

[Magnumite]

"Remember, a 230 gr. .45 and a 115 gr. 9mm both will hit the ground at the same time because they fall at the same rate. "

This assumes both bullets begin traveling at the same distance from and parallel to the ground. Upward trajectories and the different velocities will alter time of flight.

 

[Snowdog]

True, if dropped from the same distance, the slug from a 9mm and .45acp will land at the same time. However when fired out of a barrel, sectional density begins to play a part in how rapidly a bullet will decelerate (which affects "bullet drop", especially at longer ranges).

 

[BADUNAME37]

Well, a 45-70 Government bullet drops fast as well. It drops just as quickly as a 22-250, a 220 swift and a .223, to name a few.

Now, the difference in time it takes to drop in relation to how many FPS the bullet is traveling is another story for another blog.

 

[Magnumite]

You're right, sectional density will effect rate of deceleration (thus trajectory). But if two projectiles with different sectional densities are fired parallel to the ground at the same height, they will both drop at the same rate. Gravity effects in the vertical plane, not the horizontal.

Trajectory which is not horizontal to the ground, muzzle velocity and ballistic coefficient are factors which do effect time of flight and drop.

 

[nalioth]

If you watch the Jamie and Adam segment of Mythbusters - Knock your socks off, they're testing the myth of "Do a simultaneously dropped and fired bullets hit the ground at the same time?"

They use a 1911 for the testing, and the results are interesting (as is usual with Mythbusters).

 

[lawboy]

Great discussion guys and gals. Just an interesting area of study to me. A lot of good points made. I have learned a thing or two! Thanks.

 

[Greg528iT]

What losers. They have a FLGR in their 45.

 

[JohnBT]

"What is this gibberish about 45ACP not shooting flat? "

A 15.3" drop at 100 yards isn't anywhere near what I would call flat.

 

[jonboynumba1]

I routinely plink at 25 and 50 yards with all of my handguns....and once in a while at 100....enough i can hit reasonably well with em...at 50 yards I have a high degree of certainty of hiting or scarring the living hell out of anything the size of a breadbox or up. I correct more for the .45 but I also oddly feel more confident with it...probably because I have shot .45 a LONG time like that...and sometimes I over-correct with my 9mm a few rounds after switching. I agree any of the "big 3" 9,40,.45 or 10mm or .357 sig or whatever will hit well in a decent gun with practice out well past the imaginary "25 yard limit" most people impose on handgun shooting. But I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen anyone else at our range shooting from the 50 yard benches on the pistol range....let alone on the 100 yard rifle range! (I used to bust rocks with my single six .22 off a sandbag rest for fun while my rifles cooled...great fun!....remington thunderbolts seemed to really bust em good after we re-rocked and expanded the embankment at 100 yards! I'm sure THAT was rainbow like to...but it hit surprisingly well (more than it missed) I don't know why more folks don't plink like that...it's fun...the only folks I ever see at the 100 yard line are the TC guys and the super blackhawk handload guys....they like to stretch em out it seems.

 

[Justin Holder]

Knowing how high to aim over the target to make a hit doesn't make a load "flat" shooting.

If you know your trajectory you can make hits at 500 yards with a 308 and a 45-70. But that doesn't mean the 45-70 shoots as flat as the 308.

 

[jolly roger]

I once shot an entire magazine from a S&W 4506 into the "chest" of a B27 target by holding at the "neck" of the silhouette at 125 yards so 15" inch drop is about right. But no matter how you cut it if you hold right on a bad guy at 100 yards with a 45 it'll hurt and can be done quite readily.

 

[Walkalong]

I shoot clay pigeons on the 100 yard berm with a .45 Colt load that starts life out at around 650 FPS. Probably on crutches at 100 yards. I have to aim about 18" high. No big deal.

The old timers threw large slow moving chunks of lead at game with excellent results. They just had to be good at judging distance.