What is wrong with Arisaka?

[eastbank]

thanks willie, that T-99 rifle was a bring back from the phillipines, talking about russian 7.62x54r mosins, the finns took that rifle and rebuilt it into what it should have been made in the first place and called it the model 39. the top rifle is a polish.22 mosin type trainer, the second is a post war rebuild russian mosin, the third is a finn rebuilt russian mosin and the last is the m-39 finn rebuilt russian mosin. i shoot them all and the m-39 mosin is the best of the lot. eastbank.

 

[Willie Sutton]

All gorgeous!! Well done and well shown.

For the Bubba's among us: They are gorgeous because they have been left alone. There isn't any such thing as a nice Arisaka sporter, and there isn't any such thing as a nice Nagant (sporter, tacti-cool assault rifle, fake sniper, etc). Respect the history of these by leaving them alone.


Willie

.

 

[tahunua001]

There isn't any such thing as a nice Arisaka sporter,

I beg to differ, I have seen some beautiful arisaka sporters. the amount of work, time and money that goes into them makes them highly impractical. one of the most gorgeous hunting rifles I ever laid eyes on was an arisaka sporter but the $1700 price tag was a little bit to rich for my blood.

 

[Vaarok]

Made during the Korean War, reputedly near a base in Japan where soldiers R&R'ed. I've also seen numerous T-53 Mosins done in the same style. This one's in 6.5x57 (6.5-.257 Roberts).

 

[fpgt72]

"I like your way of thinking, Willie"



^^ Yeah.... well... <shrugs>... all rifles ain't great ones. This one isn't. Historical? You bet. Priceless to the family of a soldier who brought it home as a war trophy? Most definately. Interesting to students of military small arms? Of course. GREAT? Uhh... no.

But:

I should have been a bit more reflective, I was just having coffee when I wrote that.

So:

Like the Mosin's, unaltered examples of these are interesting as military collectables, if you are so inclined. After WW-II the guys who could afford to collect other things did exactly that, and like today with the Mosins, Japanese small arms were collected by guys who could not afford to collect German and US stuff. The Japanese stuff was considered the bottom of the surplus barrel. Not because they are intrinsically bad, but because by comparison with other products on the market they were crude, and the army that used them was one we despised.

Added to that the fact that they make awkward sporters and you have a perfect storm of lack of contemporary collector interest (at the time) and loads of cheap-bubbas literally hacksawing them up into deer rifles. Nowadays they are collectable if unaltered, and almost valueless if Bubba got there first. I wouldn't even take a "sporterized" one as a gift if it were offered to me. I would, however, like a few clean examples of unaltered rifles to add to my WW-II general rifle collection. I'd demand unaltered and unground examples if I were to spend for any of them.

So... "many" are junk, the design itself is <insert yawn here>, and "who really cares" is the general answer unless they are pristine or rare military examples. And yea, they took and can still take deer reliably even when badly cut down by Bubba, but nobody would ever call them classy, elegent, or pretty, no matter what. Just like a Mosin.


And Eastbank, that's a beauty. I'd be proud to have it in my collection.


Willie

.

I am a bit thick...but now I get it...you are a snob....if it aint 'mercan or Nazi it is garbage....got it In the guitar world we call guys like you cork sniffers....if it does not say Gibson or Fender on it pure junk and that fender SN# had better start with an (A).for an American made. All the while telling everyone that an Epiphone is just junk, same with classic vibe squires. Shame for those people as well, great playing guitars.

I wonder if they sold for the same price as a 1903 or 98k it would be different....yup sure would.

Thats ok...keep your blinders on, that is just the more for those that really do know.

 

[jason41987]

after im done with the AK project im currently working on i plan to get a K98K to restore to its military configuration.. but after that, i think ill put an arisaka on the list.. either a type 38 or a type 99 (most likely the 99 since its ammo can be made from .30-06 brass and .311 bullets.. but yeah, im going to add it to my list.. i see nothing wrong with it being japanese.. in fact, my most played musical instrument was made in japan too (yamaha digital grand piano).. anyway, this threads convinced me to give an arisaka a chance

 

[fpgt72]

after im done with the AK project im currently working on i plan to get a K98K to restore to its military configuration.. but after that, i think ill put an arisaka on the list.. either a type 38 or a type 99 (most likely the 99 since its ammo can be made from .30-06 brass and .311 bullets.. but yeah, im going to add it to my list.. i see nothing wrong with it being japanese.. in fact, my most played musical instrument was made in japan too (yamaha digital grand piano).. anyway, this threads convinced me to give an arisaka a chance

I always found them to be very interesting. Take down models, AA sights, dust cover, mono pod...thing has just so many interesting bits on them.

I used mine in a high power shoot one summer and did quite well with it. Rules were
"as issued" but they still would not let me use the mono pod

They really are very accurate, very strong, very well made rifles in general. And perhaps you can find one that the americans converted to 3006 then it might not be "junk"....or perhaps the Chinese converted to 8mm.....that would be a german round (not junk) but done by the Chinese (junk)....so I guess that one would be half junk

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

Those anti-aircraft sights will be good for Amazon Drones.

You should be able to get all kinds of free stuff!

rc

Good one rc..

 

[Willie Sutton]

"I am a bit thick...but now I get it...you are a snob....if it aint 'mercan or Nazi it is garbage"


Just the opposite, and if you had any idea of what I do for the Department of Defense to earn my living you would realize how laughable your comments are. But to take the High Road, here are some additional thoughts:

The OP's question was/is ambiguous.

Is it:

A: "No Love" for unissued Arisakas as collectable martial rifles,

or

B: "No love" for sporterized Arisakas as postwar sporting arms?


So let's break it out and discuss:

As UNALTERED martial arms, they are in the second-tier of collectability, meaning that they do not attract the interest, or obtain the value, of first-tier collectables. First-tier collectables of the WW-II era are US and German martial arms. That's not in dispute. Generations after generations have preferred these at point of purchase, and rewared them with monetary value far exceeding second and third-tier martial arms. I place into the second-tier of collectables those arms that served with other primary "respected" combatants in WW-II, such as Enfields and Arisakas. Individual second-tier examples may be more desirable and valuable that individual examples of the first-tier (IE: a rare Arisaka folding rifle or a No.4 Enfield Sniper is worth more than a garden variety DCM Garand), but IN GENERAL this is the case. "In General" collectors in the 1950's and 1960's collected Japanese stuff only if they could not afford German or US stuff. That's a historical fact. Those with foresight could build a very nice collection on a relative shoestring (think Mosin's now). One desirable thing about the Japanese arms is that with very rare exceptions none were rebuilt after the war. UNMOLESTED examples are right out of the war. You cannot say that about most Garands, M1 carbines, or Nagants. So in that way, they are interesting. Third-tier martial arms are things like Carcanos, Lebels, etc., that really... nobody...really...cares...about. Yeah someone someplace probably collects Carcanos, and "Yeah" they are stong, accurate, etc... but <yawn> and who cares? Arisakas are a step above those. Nagants... sort of second-tier minus status to me, but interesting as martial arms. If you cannot afford to collect Kar-98K varients at $1000+/each these days and want to scratch the collectors itch, enjoy collecting unaltered Mosins with your full enthusiasm. I "get it". I was lucky enough to collect Mausers when they were available, and with over 100 of them I've no room for a lot of Mosins. I'll be dead before they appreciate. I do, of course, have a representation of them in my general martial arms collection. I also have unaltered Lebels and Carcanos. When you want to tell a story you want to tell the entire story.

On to sporters:

The NICEST custom sporters are a subtle mix of aesthetics and function. Very few people can resist the beauty of any of the classic "Mauser Based" sporters, no matter if they are Mausers or not. Springfields, P-17 Enfields with the ears removed, Mausers (both commercial and military), commercial prewar Remingtons, Pre-64 Winchesters: These are all "Mauser Based" and they blend proportion, strength, beauty, and function into what we expect in a classic sporter. One thing they all share is a flush magazine and a solid bridge receiver. In general, any other designs fall short of that ethos: There are in general no "pretty" split bridge sporters with external magazines hanging out under them. There are no "pretty" Mosin sporters, Carcano sporters, or Enfield sporters. There are lots of bubba-sporters made from these, but there are no "beautiful" ones in the classic sense. Functional? Accurate? Durable? Sure. Pretty? Classic? Timeless? Uhh... don't make me laugh. And yes, I consider the Manlicher-Shoenauer to be beautiful. It's an exception to the split bridge rule.

Arisakas CAN be reworked at great labor to aproach the beauty and looks of any of the Mauser type sporters. But in value, they will always be lagging way behind. Griffin and Howe never bothered. Holland & Holland never bothered. And post WW-II custom gunsmiths never really bothered either when so many Mausers were available. Yes there are exceptions, but that's exactly what they are. And yes, there are curiousities like the above shown Korean custom rifle, but again they are curiousities.

The basic postwar Bubba-Arisaka "sporter" is valueless. Unaltered it would have very good value. VERY FEW Arisaka "Sporters" stand on their own legs as classic rifles no matter what was done, or who did it.

Taking a lesson from the above, don't ruin a martial classic like the Mosin by bubba-sporterizing it. Trust me, you're not improving it, or doing the next generation any favors. You're just making it worthless in the long run. In the immediate run you are making a rifle up that has less immediate value than the sum of it's parts. It's losing game both in the short and long term. "Restored" military rifles are just that, for folks like Jason. You will have more time and effort and money invested in a "restoration" that will never appreciate in value than you will in a good unmolested original example that will appreciate. The bottom line is that if you need to "explain" a rifle, it has no value to a martial arms collector. "Well, it's a good action that I bought, and then rebarreled with a take off, then I hand fitted a new stock...." All that speaks "Bubba" and "Valueless to a collector". Save up a few bucks, buy the best original one that you can afford, and it'll be both satisfying in the short term and appreciating in value in the long term. You can learn by watching history, or you can learn it the hard way. I absolutely "get it", having started out when I was pennyless making up rifles from parts. None of them had any long lasting value. Not a one.



"I wonder if they sold for the same price as a 1903 or 98k it would be different....yup sure would".


They don't though, do they?

And why is that?


Perfect demonstration of a free market economy: Folks pay what the supply and the demand balance out at. Things sell for their perceived value to the buyer. Buyers don't pay for Arisakas like they pay for first-tier collectables. They are second-tier. That's just the way it is. Bottom line: If there was a barrel and I put a Garand, Springfield, Enfield, Mauser, Nagant, MAS, Carcano, and Arisaka into it, grabbed 8 guys from a gunshow and told them that they had won a prize, had them draw straws for first pick, second pick, third pick, etc., what do you think would be first pick? What would be last pick? That's a pretty goood model of how surplus was bought up after WW-II and how folks value these arms today. Nobody who does not already have his belly full of Mausers would pick an Arisaka instead at the same price.


And that, folks, is more or less the Arisaka (and Mosin, and other military surplus rifle) world as it is, not as you might want it to be.


Willie

.

 

[tark]

Most type 38 Arisakas are well made and finished. From a strictly military point of view it is a superior design, simple, easy to use and enormously strong. lay a Mauser bolt and a type 38 bolt next to each other. Notice the locking lugs on the 38 are much larger and stronger and the left lug is not slotted for the ejector. The problem for all the Jap surplus guns, rifle or pistol, has always been lack of ammo. The type 99s are the easiest to get ammo for. Make it yourself. Take 30-06 brass, grease it up and run it into a 7.7 full length die (after removing the de-priming pin, of course) and you end up with a 7.7 case with a long neck. Trim it off and your ready to go. If you cant find loading data just use 303 British data.

 

[tark]

I wonder if a Jap M-1 copy is considered a 'first tier" collectable?????? Rock Island Auction co sold one at a pretty hefty five figure price a while back.

 

[fpgt72]

I wonder if a Jap M-1 copy is considered a 'first tier" collectable?????? Rock Island Auction co sold one at a pretty hefty five figure price a while back.

Can't be...it is junk....that guy was an idiot who paid for that.....if we are to swallow the garbage some are peddling....while back peddling.

And what ever you do don't tell him that americans converted them to 3006 for use in Korea, and the Chinese converted them to 8mm.....why that "JUNK" would just explode due to the total lack of quality. Heck I am lucky to still have all my fingers after shooting those Japanese, and guns from Italy....all that stuff is just so sub par....and that French stuff....I would bet that is trash as well...heck those losers could not build a bolt rifle worth a darn if they had to....I bet some think that is why they lost in the first place.

And I will answer with less grit your "why is that"

Simple availability and ammo.

Mosins before this latest flood....you just did not see....in the 50's and 60's how many 91/30's did you see....not darn many....and how much ammo did you see....not much...so little that actually some SVT40's are converted to 303 british in Canada....badly to I might add. It was not till the going out of business sale of the USSR that these things started flooding the market. If you introduce millions of something they are going to sell for the inexpensive (notice not cheap)

Japanese has always been slow, we in the west have never had access to ammo like we have had for European weapons....some Europe weapons anyway....one reason that French (not real common and very high quality) MAS36 type rifles are not very popular....same can be said of guns from Italy...the quality and accuracy of those usually comes down to bullet size.

Another thing to remember what is of little value today does not mean it will be of little value tomorrow. Those that buy in a high market thinking it will only go up are dead wrong. Those that think that price alone indicates quality needs to invest very heavy in Mitchells Mausers, and likely thinks that they are the end all and be all of military weapons.

To take the low road.

One last thing....don't forget to discredit me for bad spelling or lack of a comma.

 

[eastbank]

well i took the t-99 japanese rifle out doe hunting yesterday and today. yesterday was a bust, but today i walked into a small group of deer who waited about 10 seconds to run and all but one ran away. the 7.7 japanese rifle loaded with norma 180gr did as good as any other rifle would have done on this doe. eastbank.

 

[Sam1911]

don't forget to discredit me for bad spelling or lack of a comma.

Holy cow, where to begin? It's not so much the spelling and punctuation that are really offensive so much as the changes in tense, number, subject and object, mid-sentence, that are jarring and hard to follow.

"...shooting those Japanese?" How many Japanese did you shoot? "Badly to?" Badly to what? Or "badly too?" "...They are going to sell for the inexpensive." What? "Inexpensive" is an adjective, not a direct object. "Japanese has always been slow?" What? It has? When I've heard it spoken it always sounded quite fast to me.

....All goofing aside...

Let's not get so emotionally wound up in defending the honor of the worlds un-loved (or "less-loved," or "love-challenged") second-tier (or "alternatively-tiered?") military surplus rifles from the less charitable opinions of our pals here that we end up in a discourteous, mocking, belittling argument. No need for that. We can agree to disagree without a lot of lampooning, eye-rolling exaggeration and overstatement about our friends' and cherished forum-mates' beliefs and observations.

Thanks!

 

[Offfhand]

Quote from above post
"I think it's about time we all chip in and give out some copies of Jim Carmicheal's "Book of the Rifle" and Steven Bodio's "Good Guns" to the next generation. Of the two the former is an essential read to further one's taste in rifles."
I completely agree, Carmichael had an engineer's sense of how rifles should be made and an artist's eye for what they should look like. His book should be on every rifleman's shelf and reread often.

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^ Agreed 100%. He was one of the Gentlemen of the firearms community.



"I wonder if a Jap M-1 copy is considered a 'first tier" collectable?????? Rock Island Auction co sold one at a pretty hefty five figure price a while back."


Sir: I must object to your language. "Jap" is a racial slur that is an offensive term to many. I assume you meant to say "Japanese" or "Japanese Imperial Army"? Were you to utter that term in my house, in front of my Japanese sister in law whom I love, you would be asked to leave forthwith if not sooner.

With that said:

As I noted above, there are always exceptions. That particular Type 4 (a M1 Garand inspired rifle), or an identical one, used to reside at SARCO when I was an armorer there back in the early 80's. I fondled it often, and was permitted to field strip it and study it in detail. It's an exceptional piece and is valued accordingly. It, however, is not a field-grade issue Arisaka.

Let's use some intellectual common sense: My "General" observations are just those: Generally true observations. In general, Japanese small arms are not valued as highly as German and US martial arms. However, they are valued more than are, for example, Italian martial arms. I don't think there is much to argue about there.

As a military rifle, the Arisaka was more that adequate when compared to other bolt action rifles is similar vintage. In general, however, the Japanese small arms fielded in WW-II were either obsolete, or hampered in logistics by the huge variety of ammunition types, weapon types, and use of an obsolete rifle to start with and a change to another rifle with a different caliber ammunition halfway thru the war. None of that made for an efficient or productive small arms industry.

I should mention that I personally love all military small arms, and have assembled a fairly definitive collection from about 1898 to present day. I certainly don't disparage the Arisaka as a miltary collectable, far from it. It is an extremely significant weapon of the 20th century and unaltered examples ought to be appreciated for exactly that reason. No other reason need exist.

With that said, I again refer you to the barrel of rifles, first guy gets first pick and last guy gets last pick. Who would *really* pick an Arisaka out of the barrel first? I mean... really?


I do have a fondness for Japanese martial things of another nature: If you really want to collect quality Japanese martial arms, start studying swords. And bring increments of $10,000 at a time when you go to a sword show. Wear a conservative suit. And bring white gloves. It's not your Bubba's gunshow: No beef jerkey will be sold. You can pick up and handle swords that are 500 years old. It's another world.


And congratulations Eastbank! "Waidmanns Heil", and well done.


Willie

.

 

[jason41987]

the reason i like military surplus rifles is not because of how strong its action is, how accurate they are or whatever, i like surplus rifles because theyre different, they show a variety in bolt action designs you really dont find anymore, just about every bolt action you find now seems to be some child of the mauser all packed in the same monte carlo stocks.. its completely and utterly boring to me to see how most modern bolt actions are little more than cookie cutter rifles

atleast the military surplus rifles had things about them that were different, that made them special, such as the K31 and its straight pull, the 1895 steyr is very interesting to me as well as the old gewehr 88 and its en block clips, the krag-jorgensen rifle is a piece of US history with a means of loading you just dont see anymore and the style of most these rifles, the aesthetics vary greatly too

the arisaka isnt like every other bolt action out there, and thats enough for me to like it.. doesnt have to be the best rifle in the world to have a cool factor or an interest from me

---

now on the topic of arisakas, what exactly is the difference between the type 99 and type 38 besides the cartridge fired?.. mechanically was there any difference between the two speaking purely on the design itself.. and speaking purely on the design, cartridge aside which one was the better rifle?..

now speaking specifically on the cartridges, 7.7 looks like a very straight forward cartridge, and easy to replicate.. as stated earlier just run 30-06 through a sizing die, trim, and load with .311 bullets.. what about the 6.5x50?.. if im not mistaken its not close to a .264 like .311 is close to a .308 but not quite, the 6.5x50 takes a real .264" bullet which are very easy to find in a very large variety of bullets.. i read you could make brass from this with .220 swift or .35 remington brass.. could be wrong though?

 

[tark]

fpgt72, I'm not sure who paid five figures for that Jap Garand, but I do know he purchased an extremely rare and significant piece of history, of which only a handful were made. How pretty it may look compared the a mauser probably didn't enter into his thought processes during the bidding. The Liberator single shot pistols we dropped into France during WW2 were the cheapest, crudest, ugliest pieces of s... ever made. They cost pennies to make, but they are quite rare today....are the worth anything? Several hundred dollars is all...
If I had to go into battle today, I would take a typp99 Arisaka over ANY mauser. Appearance Means nothing to a military. Arisakas were simpler, easier to manufacture, stronger, had better sights, and were as accurate as a 98 Mauser. The safety was difficult to manipulate from the shooting position and so is the Mausers. Finally, there is that chrome lined bore. This was a stroke of genius, especially in that era of corrosive ammo. That feature alone made the Arisaka stand above its contemporaries. Arisakas ARE ugly, that is a given, but from a purely military point of view, they are superior to the Mauser.

 

[tark]

Willie, I certainly mean no disrespect to any Japanese person when I use the word "jap". I't just that I'm old, fat and lazy and I type with one finger and I always take the shortest road to the destination. I have nothing but the highest respect for the Japanese and my son collects Japanese swords. You are certainly right about the ten thousand dollar bills, and you better bring more than one!

 

[tark]

I will now offer my formal apology, willie, and you will notice that the words I'M sorry will NOT be followed by the word "if" I am sorry I offended you or any person of Japanese decent. I stand chastised, and rightly so

 

[Willie Sutton]

^^ My father in law, rest his soul, gave me the knife that he used to behead a soldier of the Imperial Japanese Army after shooting him with an M1 Carbine. He used the same terms until the day he died. I hope that we show a bit more respect to ourselves and others than he did.

I cut my wedding cake with that knife, BTW.



"The Liberator single shot pistols we dropped into France during WW2 were the cheapest, crudest, ugliest pieces of s... ever made. They cost pennies to make, but they are quite rare today....are the worth anything? Several hundred dollars is all..."

Uhhh... No. Try thousands for an original Liberator with box and instruction sheet.


Willie

.

 

[jason41987]

ill stick with my lighter, better balanced european swords, but you can have the over-hyped japanese ones if you want, not my cup of tea

just checked gunbroker and arisakas on there really arent that inexpensive, bout the same as a mauser

 

[Willie Sutton]

"ill stick with my lighter, better balanced european swords, but you can have the over-hyped japanese ones if you want, not my cup of tea"


Youngster, if you can't run with the big dogs, ya'll best stay on the porch. There's hundreds of books filled with what you don't know about swords, metal forging, and quality rifles...

You're an enthusiastic pup and I give you credit for that. Pay attention to your elders before they kick-off and you might learn a thing or two to pass down yourself one day. Don't Bubba any more rifles, buy a good Kar-98K that's not been modified, and don't think for one second that the Japanese didn't figure out quality sword steel manufacturing techniques centuries sooner than anyone else on earth.


Best,

Willie

.

 

[Sam1911]

Well said, and all true. Certainly words to remember.

I'm going to head off more argument as it seems we've got enough here for the OP to chew on. If he wants to explore any other questions about the Japanese rifles, he can send me a PM about reopening the thread.