What Lever for untimely/bad/Grizzly encounter?

[NWAttorney]

First, I'm NOT planning on hunting ANY kind of bear. This is a deer hunting rifle that I want to be able to handle a worst encounter of the largest nightmare kind.

I want to be prepared for anything in northern Idaho and understand Grizzlies live there. I want a good lever action for hunting deer, etc. I'm worried about stumbling accross a Grizzly with a temper at the wrong place at the wrong time, and don't think a 30-30 would handle it. In fact I'm not sure a 45-70 would handle it. Or would it?

I've looked at the Marlin 444, and really like it, but it is not a cost effective plinker, that is for sure (nor is the 45-70, but not near as bad).

From what I've read, it seems like the 45-70 would be the normal recommendation, but the 444 seems to have WAY more ft-lbs energy than the 45-70. Or for that matter, what about the 450?

SO, my question is, what is a real-life defense round against an untimely/unplanned grizzly that would also be a good all-around hunting rifle (200 yards or less)? (I'm only talking levers here).

Thanks.

NWAttorney

 

[kimberfan]

only levers eh?

i was gonna recommends a AR-15 in 458socom with some 450gr solids .

 

[Jackal]

Ask most alaskan guides what they use for bear defense and you will hear a lot of them saying 12ga shotguns loaded with slugs. 1 ounce of lead and 5-8 of those in the tube is a lot of insurance.

 

[kount_zer0]

We cannot shoulder enough arm to adequately defend ourselves against 'ol grizz when his adrenaline is pumping (energy wise).

If you handload, 45-70. If not, now is a good time to start.

 

[UnTainted]

Skip the shrimpy ar-15 big bores and get the ar-10 big bore upper in 450 marlin

 

[gunnerh]

I like my .444 a lot. Plenty of power with less felt recoil then the 45/70 but both rounds not kick that much any way. I load a 240gr hard cast bullet with 2400 for light plinking. With speer shot capsules fill with #8 on top of 5 #4 buck for a small game load. The new Hornady lever action ammo is super stuff. I would not feel undergun with my Marlin in North America.

 

[stevelyn]

I've crawled around in a lot of alders and whacked three bears.

I've never felt undergunned or had any second thoughts with a short-barreled 870 and Brenneke slugs. The Brennekes whistled right through them.

 

[highorder]

stevelyn, that sounds like sage advice from a "local". good stuff.

to the OP's queation, from what I have read the model 71 winchester in 450 Alaskan (.45-348) is the holy grail of Alaskan lever guns. Coveted by many, discontinued for years, and unavailable at any price...

 

[JustsayMo]

My Marlin Guide Gun took a Idaho Black Bear last spring with a 425 gr cast bullet jogging along at 1400 fps. Complete North to South penetration, Spun and flipped the Bear and he expired before he could skedattle. Devastating performance.

My pard shot a bear this fall with his 30-06. It appeared to be a good hit, plenty of blood. We tracked until dark in thick steep cover. It was a very tense couple of hours. Next time I'm making him use my 45-70.

I've seen six bears shot with an assortment of calibers including 7.62x39, 270, 30-06 and 300 win mag. Even with double lung and or heart shots all those bears took off like they weren't hit. The two quickest kills were with a bow where the bear traveled maybe 10 feet before expiring and then the 45-70 I mentioned earlier. It leads me to believe that the energy numbers don't mean a lot to the critters. Even a good high velocity hit seems to lock them in adrenalin mode and even though they are fatally hit still travel impressive distances. That has been my experience with Deer too.

 

[Wolfgang2000]

A Marlin Guide gun in stainless, in either 45-70 or 450 Marlin should do you nicely.

However if you want a couple extra choices look at the BLR. The long action is chambered in some Mag. rounds. IIRC 338 , and 375 H&H is also in the bunch.

 

[ArmedBear]

1 ounce of lead and 5-8 of those in the tube is a lot of insurance.

What do you figure a .45-70 shoots?

Per Google Calculator:
405 grains = 0.925714286 ounces
425 grains = 0.971428571 ounces
500 grains = 1.14285714 ounces

Once you've seen a .45-70 work on large game, your whole perspective on high-velocity spitzers will change, as JustSayMo says.

Energy is simply BS when you're comparing apples to oranges. If energy was the important number, a .243 Win deer load would drop a Brown as quick as a .45-70-405. Anybody think it's a good idea to carry a .243 for grizz defense?

What's also nice about lever guns is that they come in stainless. Also, I thin straight grips are more comfortable to carry than pistol grip stocks.

Sure, 12 Gauge slugs will work well. But like I said, comparing .45-70 to a modern rifle round is apples to oranges. They don't work the same way, and the .45-70 works like you want it to on a big animal at close-to-moderate range. Actually, it works at long ranges, too, but you have to be a proficient .45-70 fanatic to hit anything way out there, due to its trajectory.

WRT .45-70 vs. .444 and .450 -- super-hot .45-70 loads for an 1895G are at least as powerful as the other cartridges, but .45-70 is also a popular round for vintage target shooting events. So, there is plenty of loading data out there for the .45-70, from pussycat plinking rounds all the way up to large game. I'd just get the .45-70; I can't see messing with the other less-common rounds when ballistics from a current-production gun aren't any better.

To see what kinds of artillery shells you can stuff in a Marlin Guide Gun if you want or need to, look here: http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#4570

 

[rcmodel]

Get a 45-70.
Or if you want to gamble on it still being around 25 years from now, a .450 Marlin.

Personally, I'd go with the 45-70 every time.

Why not the .444?
Because it gets it's all it's "energy" from a 240 grain .44 Mag pistol bullet at high velocity.
As such, it's a heck of a deer rifle, but sadly lacking on penetration & bone crushing performance on bear.

Energy is a very poor indicator of actual performance on big game.

The old 405 grain 45-70 bullet, plodding along at 1,000 FPS less velocity then the .444 lightweight bullet, will shoot through a bear lengthwise, heavy bones be darned!

If you handload, the .444 is a viable caliber with heavy bullets.
But not with factory loads, unless you get into Buffalo Bore custom ammo at almost $3 bucks a shot.
http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#444

And they sell real good 45-70 ammo too, that still out performs the .444!
http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#4570


rcmodel

 

[Myself]

Another recomendation for the guide gun. Strong enough to shoot the hottest 45-70 loads, (which can be as or more powerful than the 444 and 450. Here is another company that loads megga heavy 45-70 ammo.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/default.asp

 

[NWAttorney]

Thanks for the great input so far, folks. I'm leaning towards the 45-70 simply because it is SO MUCH more common than the .444 or .450. I was worried that the "energy" left something to be desired when compared to the other two, but as one of you wrote, that stat might be over-rated, AND you can load hot 45-70s.

I love these forums.

NWAttorney.

 

[ArmedBear]

Exactly.

And...

Energy is a very poor indicator of actual performance on big game.

Come to think of it, that's probably not exactly true, though a few of us have said it.

Energy of the bullet as it travels through the air is a very poor indicator of actual performance on big game.

The energy remaining in the bullet after it's traveled through four feet of ballistic gelatin is probably a damn good indicator. Extra points if the bullet does not deviate from a straight path. If you've butchered large game shot with .45-70s, you know what I mean.

If you think about it that way, you'll understand intuitively what rounds you're looking for, and which ones to pass on.

 

[Wedge]

As they say in cars. HP wins brags, Torque wins drags.

Same thing here. Energy sells guns. Momentum kills critters.

A big heavy solid hard bullet is going to give you the penetration you need.

 

[jgo296]

dont they make lever action 12 gauges?

 

[ArmedBear]

Yes, but they spit hulls in your face. And the .45-70 is a better way to throw an ounce of lead at a target anyway.

 

[kir_kenix]

ill second, or third, or whatever the good ole 45-70. it is never going to go out of style, and it will always be available. if u handload it is plenty versatile to kill darn near anything that lives, and still be plenty shootable with light-mid loads.

405 gr hardcast will work for any animal living in north america, just as it has been doing for generations.

 

[Wedge]

405 gr hardcast will work for any animal living in our solar system

Fixed that for ya.

 

[Z_Infidel]

You might also look at a .50-caliber lever gun. Wild West Guns sells a take-down model in .50 Alaskan, and other conversions are available elsewhere to .50AE, .475 Linebaugh, etc... Of course, availability of ammo may become a factor with any of these options.

 

[ArmedBear]

Wedge: Nah. There are some scary things living in Africa that probably do need more -- not to kill them, but to stop a charge.

OTOH some of those really hot .45-70's (500 gr @ 1625 fps or 430@1925) might work...

 

[Wedge]

True enough, if a Rhino or Bull Elephant or Hippo is coming at me full steam...well an M2 is going to seem a little small right then.

 

[ArmedBear]

Depleted uranium is your friend.

 

[rcmodel]

Interesting story by Bryan Pearce some time back in Rifle magazine.

He took a 45-70 Marlin to Africa and killed a Cape Buffalo with it.

Well actually, he killed two Cape Buffalo with it & I believe, Garrett Hammer-Head ammo.

The bullet went clear through the first one, and also the second one standing behind it!


rcmodel