Wind isn't much of a factor at 25 yards even for .22's. Bullets are still flying fast at that distance even if they never go supersonic at all. Shooting at 100 yards it's a lot tougher to get MOA with a .22 than it is at 25 yards IMO. But that doesn't make it easy to do even at 25 yards. I'm just saying I think 100 yards MOA with a .22 is tougher. It can certainly be done though. 200 yards starts to get really tough with a .22 though because of the wind.
What makes a "Rifleman"?
- Thread starter CoyoteSix
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The best combat rifleman I witnessed was a non-qua at Parris Island. When it really counted (Viet-Nam) he delivered effective fire in the extreme. That for me was the essence of a real rifleman life and death in the balance. Those of us that were there that day survived because of that individual.
I wasn't trying to bash Appleseed - I happen to like Appleseed and have been in communication with them to get a shoot organized in Central IL. I recognize the value of their shooting program, and more importantly, the message they portray.
I was just stating that shooting at 25 yards does not make one a "Rifleman".
It's a good (great) starting point for new shooters. It does have merit in that you can learn and practice the fundamentals without introducing all of the variables and concerns of long range exterior ballistics.
However, I will state that if a person can shoot high on a 25 yard AQT, and believes (without any further study or practice) that they are an effective and sound "Rifleman" based on the score they receive there, they are mistaken.
If the score can be repeated at actual distance, then (and only then) have they really proven they have the skills to be a "Rifleman" (as far as the definition we are seeking, in this thread). Putting shots on paper at 25 yards does not do this.
I may be biased as an NRA instructor, perhaps, but I find a lot of merit in the NRA / Winchester marksmanship qualification program. Some of the courses there, and the certification tracks, are very difficult to master (particularly in the Highpower, Sporting Highpower, and F-Class discipline).
The reason I say this is two-fold:
* The courses are all at actual distance. F-Class ratings, for example, are all done at 100, 200, 300, 500, 600, and 1000 yards. As you progress to higher ratings, the distance increases. Same with Highpower Sporting Rifle - hitting an A-25 target in the x-ring at 100 yards while standing is no small feat. It's only 1" wide. Highpower is even more difficult, in my opinion. An SR-1 at 200 yard, while standing, is not an easy task.
* The ratings require repetitions. To get the highest rating of Distinguished Expert in Highpower Sporting rifle, you must meet the next highest requirement a total of 28 times. If a person attends one match a month, that means they could reach the highest level of award no earlier than 2 years, 4 months - assuming they don't "biff" at a match at some point. It is no small feat, and getting lucky (or having one good day) doesn't mean jack if you can't do it again next time...
You have to be consistently good.
Each program has it's merits, advantages, and disadvantages. I like the history and storytelling of Appleseed, but the rifle course is (as mentioned) more suited to beginners. The NRA / Winchester program is more suited to individuals who are really wanting to master the art of rifle, and while fun, is a demanding event, that can be somewhat discouraging for new shooters who plateau out quickly and can't seem to make forward progress on ratings.
I was just stating that shooting at 25 yards does not make one a "Rifleman".
It's a good (great) starting point for new shooters. It does have merit in that you can learn and practice the fundamentals without introducing all of the variables and concerns of long range exterior ballistics.
However, I will state that if a person can shoot high on a 25 yard AQT, and believes (without any further study or practice) that they are an effective and sound "Rifleman" based on the score they receive there, they are mistaken.
If the score can be repeated at actual distance, then (and only then) have they really proven they have the skills to be a "Rifleman" (as far as the definition we are seeking, in this thread). Putting shots on paper at 25 yards does not do this.
I may be biased as an NRA instructor, perhaps, but I find a lot of merit in the NRA / Winchester marksmanship qualification program. Some of the courses there, and the certification tracks, are very difficult to master (particularly in the Highpower, Sporting Highpower, and F-Class discipline).
The reason I say this is two-fold:
* The courses are all at actual distance. F-Class ratings, for example, are all done at 100, 200, 300, 500, 600, and 1000 yards. As you progress to higher ratings, the distance increases. Same with Highpower Sporting Rifle - hitting an A-25 target in the x-ring at 100 yards while standing is no small feat. It's only 1" wide. Highpower is even more difficult, in my opinion. An SR-1 at 200 yard, while standing, is not an easy task.
* The ratings require repetitions. To get the highest rating of Distinguished Expert in Highpower Sporting rifle, you must meet the next highest requirement a total of 28 times. If a person attends one match a month, that means they could reach the highest level of award no earlier than 2 years, 4 months - assuming they don't "biff" at a match at some point. It is no small feat, and getting lucky (or having one good day) doesn't mean jack if you can't do it again next time...
You have to be consistently good.
Each program has it's merits, advantages, and disadvantages. I like the history and storytelling of Appleseed, but the rifle course is (as mentioned) more suited to beginners. The NRA / Winchester program is more suited to individuals who are really wanting to master the art of rifle, and while fun, is a demanding event, that can be somewhat discouraging for new shooters who plateau out quickly and can't seem to make forward progress on ratings.
Point is, 25 yards doesn't prove anything, at all.
To be clear, I definitely disagree with this.
I could not disagree-more.
Let me interject that there is also more to rifle-craft than marksmanship. Yes, hitting the target is paramount, but part of being able to make the most effective practical use of a rifle is gun handling. So in the Gunsite 270 course --
- We practiced snap shooting from high ready and low ready positions.
- Gunsite operates as a hot range. Guns, both our rifles and any sidearms we chose to wear, were always loaded (except rifles in a rack). Accordingly we practiced safely moving around and attending to things while safely carrying a loaded gun.
- An important part of the training was ammunition management. We were expected to be ready with adequate ammunition for firing exercises and to be loaded and ready to fire during those exercises. We practiced topping up magazines when there’s a lull in the festivities. We practiced speed loading one round if we need to in order to complete an exercise.
- We practiced operating the bolt with the rifle shouldered and taking quick follow-up shots.
- We practiced using improvised rests in the field.
- We practiced the use of the sling.
- Of course we used the sling as a shooting aid, but it didn't stop there.
- We also studied various ways to use the sling for safely carrying a loaded rifle, including safely and efficiently dismounting it from a slung position and deploying it for firing.
- We did snap shots under time pressure starting with a slung rifle.
- In one exercise, we started with a slung rifle and had seven seconds to dismount the rifle, take prone, and hit a popper at 200 yards with the first shot.
- We did snap shots under time pressure starting with a slung rifle.
- Of course we used the sling as a shooting aid, but it didn't stop there.
peacemaker45
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Tiny groups at 25 yards does not a rifleman make. The essence of a rifleman is the ability to cope with drop and windage to get hits. However, without a firm foundation in the fundamentals of marksmanship, which 25 yards *does* demonstrate, trying to acquire the more advanced skills that make a rifleman will be like building the proverbial house on shifting sand.
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The 25 yard Appleseed teaches transferable fundamentals. The targets are small for what you do to them. Yes, elevation and windage are irrelevant. Shooting a high score on a KD, known distance, event with a centerfire is a good benchmark.
If you can reliably land hits at cadence at 500 yards in adverse conditions, then you're a rifleman.
If you can reliably land hits at cadence at 500 yards in adverse conditions, then you're a rifleman.
I'd say if you can shoot the Appleseed 210 or better and then hang in there with a Marine who's earned his expert qualification, you're rolling along decently.
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