What makes an AR by Colt or FN any better than the AR kit I ordered?

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I suspect a 6920 is close the Mil Std...
The 6920LE is pretty close. As most know, the differences between the 6920LE and the issue M4A1 is FCG, barrel length and profile and roll marks.

The Colt M4A1 SOCOM is even closer. The differences are FCG and a slightly longer permanently installed A2 birdcage. Roll marks are the same with the exception of serial number and there is no AUTO marking. It even has the KAK handguards & covers. For now, it looks like Colt is making them in small batches.
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From what I understand, Colt is still supplying M4s to the military.
 
so I put greater trust in my performance with them than the “mil-spec monsters” in my safe.

Unless you have a rifle from a military contract, you don't own any "mil-spec" rifles. Only rifles made for the military are mil-spec. If you don't believe me call Colt and ask them yourself.

Mil-spec is materials, treatment of those materials, component dimensions, testing of those components, wear, durability, accuracy and service life. Lastly, the rifle is approved by a gov't inspector.

Mil-spec AR-15 is an oxymoron. There is no military specification for an AR-15. It's that simple.

I know, it's splitting hairs but I wish people would quit using that term if they aren't referring to rifles built under military contract. It drives collectors nuts.
 
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Colt and others are no different than the other ARs. They should be, and could be, but they aren’t. The military contracts should mean that they are producing a high quality weapon with very few differences between the war machine and the beer can hole poker. In reality the parts are all contracted out to various vendors. The various vendors also make parts for the other companies, so the parts end up being the same. As far as the military machinery I believe that the manufacturer has to at least finish the “machine gun” aka lower receiver in house, so they buy forgings from the same guys who make their AR lowers and finish the parts themselves. The only difference you can possibly see is between a billet lower and a forged lower. For 99% of civilian purposes they are the same. For hard use games the billet is likely stronger and may take more abuse before cracking. You do pay a premium for billet. You don’t necessarily get a billet part just because it’s from the big name shops.

You are wrong. They are not all the same.
 
do you have proof of any of that?

the parts that are likely true are that colt subcontracts parts out to various manufacturers. the part that is misleading is that that in any way implies they are the same. it is likely the opposite. even if a given part comes off the same assembly line, if it goes to colt, it may be subjected to expensive testing and QC, that it doesn't get if it goes to a commercial product that doesn't advertise meeting any standard. worse, if a batch of parts is "good enough to shoot safely" but doesn't pass some technicality on the mil spec testing, it may still be sold in the commercial guns.


very few people need an adjustable gas block. but most people do need a gas block that is properly assembled. typically that means pinning it or at a minimum putting a screw into a dimple in the barrel, neither of which are conducive to "scooting". seriously, i hope you're joking.

I'm sure he's serious and quite proud of his Bubba smithin' skills. :what:
 
Unless you have a rifle from a military contract, you don't own any "mil-spec" rifles. Only rifles made for the military are mil-spec. If you don't believe me call Colt and ask them yourself.

Mil-spec is materials, treatment of those materials, component dimensions, testing of those components, wear, durability, accuracy and service life. Lastly, the rifle is approved by a gov't inspector.

Mil-spec AR-15 is an oxymoron. There is no military specification for an AR-15. It's that simple.

I know, it's splitting hairs but I wish people would quit using that term if they aren't referring to rifles built under military contract. It drives collectors nuts.

You're going to give all those guys on the AR forums who pontificate about "mil-spec" heart attacks and apoplexies talking like that.

Mil spec is a minimum standard to which military guns are made. A civilian AR-15, or "Mforgery" (as some refer to them "tongue-in-cheek") will not be true milspec because it must have a 16" or + barrel length (N. F. A.) and SEMI auto only trigger (same reason).
Other parts can be mil spec, like bolts MPI tested, M4 style carrier .... and such. Primarily DESIGN attributes that must in civilian guns make them N.F.A. compliant will also remove them from the "mil spec" arena. Material qualities, and other NON- NFA design attributes may be applied equally to civilian Mforgeries.

E. G. : I just bought a Springfield Armory "Saint." It has the F mark front sight, M4 bolt carrier, MPI mark bolt, mil spec size buffer tube. It is not really "mil spec" though .... it has a midlength gas system.
So what?
I do not really expect a commercial gun to be true mil spec .... I don't think it will ever be legal for me to buy a fully automatic Colt (or FN) made M-4.

But OTOH, knowing that some important internal parts are well made and inspected .... is sorta nice.

I suppose collectors might get annoyed that mil spec gets bandied about too loosely. But then, more seriously, we have politicians making laws talking about "parts that go up," conflating semiauto and full auto, and some who, today, are outright openly discussing doing away with the second amendment, and confiscating assault weapons (e.g., Eric Swalwell of California).

Choose your battles well.
 
I could try to explain to the OP what the differences are and what those mean for the user.... but it’s just not worth my time.

So I’ll post this video and let the late Pat Rogers explain. Even given his vast experience with AR’s, 90% of the posters in this thread will ignore his advice because they think their anecdotal experience with one AR they put 200 rounds through a year is a valid data set.

Anyway here’s the video:

At the end of the day I’m not staking my life on a bargain basement AR I put together in my garage. If you want to, that’s your business.



I hadn't watched this before. One thing that I was happy to see is the endorsement of Air-Soft for practice. They get a lot of derision from "real shooters" but I find them to be good for practice. No, not a total substitute for live fire practice; but a good supplement for home practice.

I was also surprised at his endorsement of "benign neglect" toward gun maintenance. Before jumping on that statement, he had a lot of qualifications to that. One was in increasing familiarity.

He also went into a lot of detail on Bolts and BCGs'. In all, It was a good afternoon watch.
 
You're going to give all those guys on the AR forums who pontificate about "mil-spec" heart attacks and apoplexies talking like that.

Mil spec is a minimum standard to which military guns are made. A civilian AR-15, or "Mforgery" (as some refer to them "tongue-in-cheek") will not be true milspec because it must have a 16" or + barrel length (N. F. A.) and SEMI auto only trigger (same reason).
Other parts can be mil spec, like bolts MPI tested, M4 style carrier .... and such. Primarily DESIGN attributes that must in civilian guns make them N.F.A. compliant will also remove them from the "mil spec" arena. Material qualities, and other NON- NFA design attributes may be applied equally to civilian Mforgeries.

E. G. : I just bought a Springfield Armory "Saint." It has the F mark front sight, M4 bolt carrier, MPI mark bolt, mil spec size buffer tube. It is not really "mil spec" though .... it has a midlength gas system.
So what?
I do not really expect a commercial gun to be true mil spec .... I don't think it will ever be legal for me to buy a fully automatic Colt (or FN) made M-4.

But OTOH, knowing that some important internal parts are well made and inspected .... is sorta nice.

I suppose collectors might get annoyed that mil spec gets bandied about too loosely. But then, more seriously, we have politicians making laws talking about "parts that go up," conflating semiauto and full auto, and some who, today, are outright openly discussing doing away with the second amendment, and confiscating assault weapons (e.g., Eric Swalwell of California).

Choose your battles well.


https://www.springfieldforum.com/threads/saint-failure.1810/
https://www.xdtalk.com/threads/my-saint-issues.339353/
 
I hadn't watched this before. One thing that I was happy to see is the endorsement of Air-Soft for practice. They get a lot of derision from "real shooters" but I find them to be good for practice. No, not a total substitute for live fire practice; but a good supplement for home practice.

I was also surprised at his endorsement of "benign neglect" toward gun maintenance. Before jumping on that statement, he had a lot of qualifications to that. One was in increasing familiarity.

He also went into a lot of detail on Bolts and BCGs'. In all, It was a good afternoon watch.

There’s a good chance you were the only one to watch it judging by the level of ignorance in this thread.
 



One guy has a failure to close. I note he tried various rounds, and clearly it is a gun problem, not ammo. What I don't get is why he kept on doing it half dozen times. Did he expect different results?
All companies make the occasional lemon. I've got a couple. I had to send an Springfield XDS back for a revision in the safety mechanism.

My Saint seems to work OK. I will say that I tried cycling A zoom snap caps through it first, at home. I am STILL looking for one, which has apparently been ejected into the twilight zone. Rod Serving owes me one!
I've also heard of melted handguard .... after numerous mag dumps, right after another. I think very many polymer for ends might melt when treated like that!
If my Saint starts acting like a Sinner, I'll send it in for repairs to Springfield. But I'm not going to borrow trouble.
I've heard tales of Daniel Defense guns jamming, the Holy Grail of ARs--- Colt --- well, I've heard of them jamming. I've heard of the REAL DEAL mil spec ones having problems when used in the War on Terror by servicemen.
Nothing is perfect in life.
Mercedes cars can have flat tires just like a Kia.
 
You have a few good points there, but it still doesn’t work. Even if the manufacturer makes one massive production run to make 2000 military parts and 2000 civilian parts, only the 2000 military parts will be subjected to the various testing and certification criteria unless the company just likes to bleed labor dollars for doing those processes on civilian parts.

But still, an AR15 is not a military weapon. It is a civilian version of a military weapon. Most companies selling “AR15” parts as milspec are intentionally misleading the customer. They typically are not milspec if they are sold to the general public. The process/part/inspection/ may conform to military specifications, but they truthfully aren’t...usually. A few of the interchangeable parts may be over-runs of a milspec contract, but logic dictates that they would put these back to fill future orders rather than go through the expensive processes again just because they want to sell a premium product for a sub-premium price. If I could buy a legit colt m4 or m16 I would expect the parts to all be milspec as I would be buying an honest to goodness military grade weapon. But a LE6920 is NOT an m4 nor is it an m16. The receiver is different. The trigger group is different. The barrels are different, THEY ARE NOT MIL PARTS.

You have much to learn.
 
Unless you have a rifle from a military contract, you don't own any "mil-spec" rifles. Only rifles made for the military are mil-spec. If you don't believe me call Colt and ask them yourself.

Mil-spec is materials, treatment of those materials, component dimensions, testing of those components, wear, durability, accuracy and service life. Lastly, the rifle is approved by a gov't inspector.

Mil-spec AR-15 is an oxymoron. There is no military specification for an AR-15. It's that simple.

I know, it's splitting hairs but I wish people would quit using that term if they aren't referring to rifles built under military contract. It drives collectors nuts.

As I recall, it was American Rifleman that did an interview and a tour with Colt. As per the article, the Colt military M4's and M-16 rifles and the Colt commercial M4geries and rifles were made on the same lines and the same machines with the barrels being 16 inches for the civilian rifle vs. 14.5 for the military model and the lower receivers did not include a "auto" or "burst" mode for the civilian rifles. I wish I could tell you which issue of American Rifleman this was in but it's been several years ago I read this. (It's out there somewhere)

So, in my opinion and my opinion only with this article in mind, this is as close to "Mil-Spec" as a non government owner/person can come just short of being a federal or local government customer. As per the article, the bolts and bolt carriers were identical and could be interchanged. The barrels could be interchanged with ANY upper on the line. The same buffer tubes and buffers could end up on an AR or an M-16. That sounded pretty "Mil-Spec" to me.

As we all know, Mil-Spec is just a title. Any manufacturer can go above and beyond or fall below Mil-Spec standards as they wish. My guess is FN probably does the same thing exactly like Colt does. They have one line that allows them to interchange the parts as the market demands and as their customers place orders. After all, the "Mil-Spec" standards are public information for everyone to read and build to if the manufacturers choose to do so. Colt does for sure and FN probably does as well for all of their components. Keeping and making 2 different sets of components and parts doesn't make economic sense (economy of mass production)) when the rifles are so closely related and the customer (civilian or government) is paying a premium price for a rifle or a part.

So, whether you call it "Mil-Spec" or not, the top quality Armalite/Stoner style rifles (AR's) are pretty much built to the same standard (or better) with parts and components which could or would qualify as "Mil-Spec". Now, we all know there are some AR's that are NOT built to the Colt and FN standard which can make buying rifles and components "risky". (you get to guess which ones are and which ones are not based on your own research) Even Bushmaster had some AR's in the Army's arms rooms in the 1980's and 90's. (yes, I have seen them) I was a contractor in Afghanistan and my rifle was a Bushmaster carbine with a 14.5" barrel and a 3 shot burst switch. It looked, weighed and functioned just like the Colts and GM Hydromatics I carried during my 24 years in the active Army and National Guard. Was the Bushmaster I carried "Mil-Spec" ? Maybe. Did it use "Mil-Spec" quality parts and components ? Probably. (tell BCM and Daniel Defense they are not "Mil-Spec" or better)

I will concede that to the best of my knowledge, no government publication has ever been issued for a mid length rifle so calling a mid length "Mil-Spec" would be a long reach, but I could understand that a mid length rifle could be built using "Mil-Spec" or better components. (BCM stand up here and take a bow with your 14.5" mid length)

So, if you don't like the words "Mil-Spec" because the rifle is destined to be sold to the civilian markets (AR-15) instead of to the Military or a Police government agency, we (I) could use "built to the Colt and FN standard of quality" for those who are reluctant to use "Mil-Spec". Personally, I'm a bit lazy and I don't want to have to explain "built to the Colt and FN standard of quality" to the unknowing or uneducated and when appropriate I'm just going to use the words "Mil-Spec".

Why ?? Because many AR shooters do have a working knowledge about what "Mil-Spec" means. Be that right, wrong or indifferent "Mil-Spec" has a common understanding of quality and a mindset image for those folks who have more than a simple basic knowledge of the Armalite/Stoner platform. After all, there are more AR shooters and accumulators than true "collectors". The collectors can use their time and talents to explain the differences and split the hairs if they so choose. I don't have enough time left in my life to get that serious.

However, I do want to shoot and own a dependable and accurate rifle so I will apply the easy to understand and interpret "Mil-Spec" standards when I buy or build an AR-15 style rifle. Is it a true "Mil-Spec" as you just defined it ? By your definition it appears the answer is "no". I have to say, I get the feeling there are a metric ton of folks just like me doing the same thing. We want and demand "Mil-Spec" or better quality and we will do the research and spend our money where we can get it. If Colt or FN doesn't want to provide it, we will go somewhere else to get it. But the words "Mil-Spec" give us a starting point for our search. True definition or not.

But, that's just me.

kwg
 
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I'm sure he's serious and quite proud of his Bubba smithin' skills. :what:

Right! It's those kind of shenanigans that get squad mates killed and let vicious terrorists kill freedom. That and not holding the butt stock firmly to the sternum.

:scrutiny:

I won't disparage a man for using his equipment however he pleases. Even his keyboard.

Liking wheat bread is unforgivable, but tuning a personal pistol AR(milspec pistol, snicker) in an unconventional manner does not make him a Bubba, even if he is from Kentucky. It worked after all.

We are among friends here, yes?
 
call me crazy...I always figured that "mil-spec", was simply that it is built to be within military uh...specifications? preferably manufactured by the lowest bidder.
Ive seen some duds by Colt....but I gotta say that I dont think Ive ever seen an FN lemon. but im relatively inexperienced here, as well.

I have (2) A2 pattern AR's. One is a Bohica (carbine) and the other (the lower at least) was built by CAI (rifle)
Both brands have horrid reputations, but in all these years those two operate with boringly reliable consistency.
 
This couldn’t be more correct. Absolutely agree with every word.

Pontificating the difference bewtween QA and QC isn’t really pertinent to the conversation, but since we’re apparently doing so - inspectors are QA, which stimulate feedback to QC. Lag vs. Lead measures of the same over-arching industrial and manufacturing Quality Management Systems.

It’s actually VERY common for QA efforts to go unresolved without QC corrections for MANY companies, regardless of industry. If the produced parts/products are inexpensive or otherwise low margin, the payback on investing in QC enhancement measures like new tooling, controls/instrumentation, equipment, personnel training, etc can and very often DOES outweigh potential payback, so companies simply choose to reject or rework a greater-than-zero volume of QA captured defect/defective events. Equally, it’s very common for companies to find a responsible financial solution letting some Quality defect or defective events pass through to the customer, taken as customer service warranty events, rather than implementing an airtight QA program. Many companies have built incredibly robust customer reputations and loyalties, despite a relatively high defect/defective rate hitting the consumer market, simply because their warranty and customer service support is so great - some of these have market leading revenue volumes and operating margins (Ruger, as a direct example).

Not even pharmaceutical companies live in a zero defect/defective, or even zero defective release world - even if they DO live in a world where 6 Sigma, 3.4 defects per million opportunities, is far too many. By production standards, even mil-spec Colts and FN’s have a much higher defect/defective tolerance than many products in other industries, just by their nature.

Not arguing at all with @Skylerbone here, but I’d make a clarification on the following:



“Mil-spec” often actually means as much or more about testing protocols and minimum acceptable expectations than it means about design, manufacturing method, or materials. What that means in terms of the actual product performance might mean a lot, or it might be meaningless. For example - many bolts can be bought which are sample tested instead of individually tested, some of higher alloys than mil-spec. Most of these are undeniably better than mil-spec, but they are not mil-spec. Equally, there are some items which really don’t seem to have much of a mil-spec categorization, and are likely the exact same item, for example hammer springs, but one branded product might have a Prancing Pony on the box, and the same spring in a different box might get disregarded for being “not mil-spec,” or “not colt.” Hammer and trigger pivot pins - how do you screw up a length of pin stock? Can you tell me with a straight face a Colt LPK with mil-spec pins are actually a better product than any of a hundred equivalent pins from other brands? Better than non-mil-spec KNS anti-walk pins? Is a Geissele Hi-speed NM trigger a lesser trigger than their SSA-E or SSF triggers? Do we know these military issued triggers were tested in the same manner as the conventional mil-spec M16/M4 triggers? Hundreds if not thousands of non-lined AR barrels are used in competition every year, under high cyclic rates (for semi-autos) and very high volumes of fire - is stainless really inferior to chrome lined in this application? Would chrome lined chambers and barrels really be superior? If yes, how have professional competitors NOT realized and witnessed it? Are billet lowers really inferior to forged mil-spec lowers?

I have Colts, have two FN’s currently (one a year the last two years), a couple DD’s, and have had an LMT. I have had to service just as many hiccups and make the same tuning refinements to any of them as I have any other AR I have built or bought. They’re less likely to have particular failures Jim Bob’s basement build might have if Jim Bob uses, for example, a $20 free float handguard and then dives every weekend into barricades like some Tactical Timmy, and the fact they were test fired at a factory is greater assurance they won’t have feeding issues which might befall a greater percentage of frankenbuilds, but once the kinks are straightened, there’s really not so much different about equally spec’d AR’s.

I certainly would take any of a dozen of my personal AR’s to battle before I took my Colt’s or FN’s. The upgrades made to mine are better suited for me than my Colt’s and FN’s, and don’t detract from the reliability of the action, so I put greater trust in my performance with them than the “mil-spec monsters” in my safe.
 
The idea that the Colt 6920 is the pinnacle of development of the Stoner rifle platform has led more people to buy a non-optimal rifle than almost any other notion in the black rifle community.

It is a much better situation now that they cost around $800. When they were selling for $1200-$1400 it was egregious.


Flame suit on......
 
The idea that the Colt 6920 is the pinnacle of development of the Stoner rifle platform has led more people to buy a non-optimal rifle than almost any other notion in the black rifle community.

It is a much better situation now that they cost around $800. When they were selling for $1200-$1400 it was egregious.


Flame suit on......

The price is probably about where it should be. They used to get more money for their pistols than the quality should demand. That price came down also. To be honest, if I were in the market I would buy a 6920. Not because it's that much better than a SA, Ruger or S&W, but because of the resale. I buy Colt pistols for the same reason.
 
The biggest issue I have with the typically biased mil-spec mafia opinion is the application for which the military needs their weapons. Military applications are much more narrow than the span of possibilities for a civilian AR-15.

As noted in the Rogers speech above, the standard for precision in a mil-spec rifle is abysmal.

A good recoil spring, good bolt, good extractor spring, and a proper balance between operating mass and gas flow is really all it takes to make an AR run reliably. Most of the rest of the rifle can be significantly improved for non-military applications.
 
The price is probably about where it should be. They used to get more money for their pistols than the quality should demand. That price came down also. To be honest, if I were in the market I would buy a 6920. Not because it's that much better than a SA, Ruger or S&W, but because of the resale. I buy Colt pistols for the same reason.


This is one of those reasons why I am glad that I am a shooter primarily and not much of a collector. I'm trying to stay busy wearing out my ARs, at which point I will rebarrel and repeat. I do have a Colt 603 that is a complete, original M16A1 except for the lower receiver and the barrel which import laws do not allow to be re-imported. There are original M16A1 barrels floating around but the price is off-putting for me.

HIc7kGs.jpg
 
I'm not sure if you remember the contracted 1911 debachale that the USMC had with Colt a few years ago. The finish wore off of those pistols in a matter of a few months and Colt got them all back.

Even after this they have still yet to learn how to apply Cerakote.... :eek:
Ive got a newer M45A1 from the Custom Shop that the Cerakote will fall off when you look at it wrong. It still functions, just looks as bad as those war horses that were auctioned off. Still worth the $ paid to me as its a sweet shooter.
 
This couldn’t be more correct. Absolutely agree with every word.

With all due respect, you cannot "inspect quality" into your product. By the time inspection gets to it, either the product is in spec or it isn't. No amount of measuring or weighing will change that. If the NDI inspector find a crack, the inspection will not un-crack the part.

It's true that in a good company, manufacturing still read the inspection reports and make improvements. But inspection has no control over quality. Manufacturing does.

If you think inspection can control quality, or the distinction does not matter, tell yourself that next time you get as product with defects. After all, the end user is the final inspector.
 
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