What makes the .357 Mag 125gr unquestionably the best manstopper?

[tipoc]

Brassfetcher seemed to be of the opinion that the light projectiles were going too fast, causing seperation, and bullet failure. That might actually be a reason for thier effectiveness, since secondary projectiles caused by bullet fragmentation can cause considerable damage.

I'm not sure that brassfetcher did make that point. They were commenting only on a specific load and bullet, the Hornady 125 gr. load. Most ammo manufacturers have for the last 20 or so years been struggling to meet the FBI specs of 12-14" of penetration in 10% ballistic gelatin with expansion for jhp rounds no matter what caliber. Brassfetcher's point was that they preferred a round that expanded more at shallower depths even if the trade off was less penetration than the Hornady round. If the round expands more, and causes more damage by doing so, it slows down some thus utilizing more kinetic energy. They preferred a round that made a bigger hole even at the expense of an inch or so penetration. They made no mention of fragmentation because the fragmentation of the Hornady round was within normal parameters.

Penetration depths were sufficiently deep but we would have liked to have seen greater expansion and penetration depths around ten inches maximum in order to increase the kinetic energy transferred to more shallow structures in the body... Muzzle velocities on the tested lot were very tight, helping to increase the consistency of the bullets terminal effects on the target. We would not hesitate to recommend this cartridge for self-defense usage in a four-inch .357 Magnum revolver, though we caution that there is a trade-off present to increase penetration depths through a reduction in the kinetic energy transferred to shallow tissues in the body. This reduces the potential for damaging more tissue on the vast majority of possible shotlines, while adding the benefit of being able to moderately damage any tissue in the body on any conceivable shotline.

They recommend the Hornady load for self defense and carry especially from a 4" wheelgun.

Take some time over at the Brassfetcher site and compare the expansion and penetration of various rounds and calibers. Much of it does as well or better than a number of loads for the 357.

tipoc

 

[RevDerb]

The title of this thread drives me absolutely nuts! I had never heard (until I read it here) that the .357 Mag - 125gr had the reputation stated in the title. As you can see from the 4000+ views and 150+ responses to this thread demonstrates that opinions are like (fill in the blank), everyone has one. There are no "opinions" that are unquestionable. A baseball bat applied to the side of the head is also an effective manstopper but it simply doesn't work 100% of the time. Where you hit is more important than what you hit with. (oh, yeah, IMHO)

 

[easyg]

Where you hit is more important than what you hit with.

Yes, shot placement is paramount.
No one has said otherwise.

But no matter how good you are, there's just no guarantee that your round will hit the exact area of the target that you were aiming at.
You might be aiming for the target's heart but instead hit the target's left shoulder due to the movement of the target.

With that in mind, it makes sense to use a caliber that causes more damage than a caliber that causes less damage....
A .22 round to that shoulder will most likely not affect the target as much as a .357 magnum round to that same shoulder.

 

[sthomper]

Besides internet rumor, and "studies" full of glaring methodological flaws?

Nothing.


well...if it happens to be the best manstopper and you just happen to be unaware of it then it is something.

 

[mgregg85]

Zombie thread...

I can never stop my eyes from rolling when I see a thread dealing with "the best pistol cartridge evarrr!?!??"

I'd say the .357 is eclipsed by the .41 mag in revolvers but most .41 mags are too big. .357 mag is probably the best revolver loading for self defense when you factor in size and all.

Now when you start talking about all handguns you have to consider the big 10mm, when loaded to full power specs it beats the .357 magnum.

 

[Prosser]

I thnk you are finally sniffing the right side of the tree.

What makes that .357 load so effective is a number of factors that lead a LOT of people to shoot it, alot.
Quote:
Well said.

Being able to control the firearm well enough to score accurate hits in the event of a miss or the first hit being inneffective is more important than having a round that is a decisive fight stopper if it scores a good hit the first time.

I've personally found that this can be difficult with the .357, especially in light weight revolvers. Ever try to empty a 340 PD (or even an SP101, M60) quickly and accurately? Much more difficult than with a compact 9mm or .45.
And that is the key point -- it is the gun-cartridge-bullet-and-man combination that makes a weapon effective. A cartridge that is highly effective in one gun -- say a full-charge .357 in my Colt M357 -- may be much less effective in a smaller, lighter gun -- such as your 340 PD. A gun and cartridge that is effective in the hands of one man may be less effective in the hands of another."

I am not a great fan of the .357 round, 125 grain load, but, I recognize it for what it is:
First:
It was available in a huge number of guns, LEO carry guns, and most important, it's as much as you can carry in a snub and shoot reasonably accurately. Even at the 1204 fps I get with Corbon's 125's, our of a 360PD,
it's very hard to find anything more powerful that will come out of a 12-15 oz gun, and still be even close to shootable. Like it or not, the .357 comes in more small guns then any other caliber, and is the most commonly available powerful round you can put in a light gun, and be able to shoot.

So, you have light recoil in a heavy revolver, duty gun, and, heavy recoil in a light snub, but, still shootable.

Most shootings occur at night, and, the .357 125 grain load is both loud, and blinding, aiding in it's scare and effectiveness factor. If a self-defense shooting occurs at more then 5 yards, you've got problems. I suspect most of the sampling of .357 shootings took place at night, and point blank range.
Accuracy was not as much of a factor as we believe, since at that range
the combination of blinding flash, burning powder, and getting hit with a bullet tend to overload the person on the receiving end.

I have come to the rather backwards conclusion that the .357 out of a light 5 shot is as much firepower as I can carry, in a small package, consistently.

I can't be the only person in this situation, and, considering the state I live in has between 40-45 million people, and they have suffered the same absurd carry laws, I'm sure I am not alone in coming to the same conclusion.

So, you have as much power as most people can shoot, in the most commonly available CCW firearms, a tremendous number of those guns available, and, at the time, LEO's carrying the same round in both duty and CCW guns. It's sort of a process of natural selection, with a round that
while not perfect, still does the job consistently, out of a variety of guns.

Also the round feeds on it's own success. Since so many guns are produced to shoot it, they are relatively less expensive, and more diverse then most other calibers. Also, the competition can lead to similar loads being available
for reasonable prices.

Inexpensive guns, with reasonably priced ammunition, and the entire variety
of holster options designed for the guns, and you have value in the round, gun, holster combination.

You have the Ayoob factor as well. The round is popular with many LEO agencies, and, if you have to defend yourself, defending yourself in court is easier, and less costly, if you can point to the LEO in the court room and say I carry it because he does.