What should really be done about gun violence in the US?

[Vern Humphrey]

I honestly do wonder if, bear with me for a moment, we did not lock up crazies based on suspicions, just how much the violence stemming from their illness would pick up. The dangerously mentally ill are a small fraction of the populace, and even smaller subset which actually ends up harming others.

We don't "lock up crazies based on suspicions." We only incarcerate people for crimes. A person on trial may plead insanity, and if that plea is accepted by the jury, then they may be held in a mental institution.

But we don't go around deciding who is and who is not a "crazy" and locking up people, willy-nilly.

 

[ilbob]

I do not think there is any real answer that any government can impose. that is the real problem.

There is a segment of our society that just is unwilling to behave in acceptable ways and they have enough political power that it is tough to do much about it.

I think you can tweak around the edges of it. Just stop punishing people for making bad choices that mostly affect themselves, the so called victimless crimes. I think that is a bad choice for a name because there really are victims, but we have just made it worse by criminalizing some behaviours. Regulate, tax it.

prostitution
gambling
drugs


That would reduce the magnitude of the problem considerably.

 

[barnbwt]

We don't "lock up crazies based on suspicions." We only incarcerate people for crimes.

So...people aren't forcibly committed before they commit violent crimes? Nor held --forcibly-- in confinement for observation before they commit violent crimes --based on the suspicion they might be mentally unstable to the point they will likely at some point in the future maybe commit a violent crime?

I personally think if we only forcibly incarcerated/committed those who have actually committed violent acts, we'd get 95% of the benefit of the current system with no potential for expansion/abuse. Our wards were full back in the "lock 'em up for good" days because a lot of the mentally ill were locked up for acting out in inappropriate, but non violent ways. Now, we're trying to out-fox crazy people to discern their future actions (which is a pretty impossible task on a couple levels) so that a vanishingly small fraction of those being treated won't run amok

According to Malay/Indonesian culture, amok was rooted in a deep spiritual belief.[6] They believed that amok was caused by the hantu belian,[7] which was an evil tiger spirit that entered one’s body and caused the heinous act. As a result of the belief, those in Indonesian culture tolerated amok and dealt with the after effects with no ill will towards the assailant.[8]

An evil tiger is honestly as good an explanation as any, since we seem unable to figure exactly when these nut jobs will go off, if ever. I personally think focusing on dealing with the after effects of these tragedies and making sure the assailants are treated, committed, or even executed so they cannot repeat their crimes, is a very mature way of tackling an uncontrollable variable.

TCB

 

[G'dale Mike]

Mandatory Norplant for any woman receiving govt subsidies after 2nd child. I will accept societal responsibility for 2 mistakes. After that, you've established a pattern of non responsibility, so you can have govt support, but you will not produce more dependants while carelessly engaging in promiscuous sex.
I'd bet within 20 yrs of this approach, gun violence would be half or less than what it is now. Govt creates a problem( producing dependant citizenry for purpose of keeping them in office. Said citizenry is responsible for vast majority of gun violence, but it is more more important for those politicians to keep the dependants as vote "slaves", so rather than fix the problem, your aim is to remove their weapon of choice)
With all the studies regarding "gun violence" ,, has anyone seen a study comparing the # of perpertraters who are on govt assistance compared to perps receiving no govt asst? That would be an interesting study,,, and i bet the result would reveal govt assistance increases the chances of a person to commit gun violence, ergo, to reduce gun violence would require reduce govt assistance.

 

[G'dale Mike]

Wow, did a "google search"

For " how many people shot to death in united states by african americans per year?".
The answers varied from "gun violence" to "too many blacks killed each year". I only scrolled through the first two pages.. Now isnt it interesting that an internet search engine would not give an answer to that question?
If you ever want to solve a problem, you first must be able to identify it. It's obvious to anyone not living in the wilderness that the majority of gun violence is isolated to the African American community. You can argue politics, race relations, but you can not argue that the previous statement is not true. There is a major dysfunction in the African American community and until that is resolved, there will be no decrease in the # of murders by firearm.

 

[happygeek]

Wow, did a "google search"
For " how many people shot to death in united states by african americans per year?".
The answers varied from "gun violence" to "too many blacks killed each year". I only scrolled through the first two pages.. Now isnt it interesting that an internet search engine would not give an answer to that question?

From the FBI UCR, Murder Offenders by Age, Sex, and Race, 2012

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...murder_offenders_by_age_sex_and_race_2012.xls

(Obviously a good chunk of the offenders are going to fall into the unknown category since nationwide police solve about 2/3 of the homicides: http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2010/may/24/unsolved-homicides/)

 

[SAGEEN]

I picked.....Much harsher and swifter punishment for the convicted
they don't enforce all the current laws....we don't need any new ones or ones directed toward lawabiding.good people who are not bothering anyone

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I do not think there is any real answer that any government can impose. that is the real problem.

Actually, there is, and we can prove it statistically. The way to prevent killings like those we are discussing is to encourage more honest people to carry arms to defend themselves and others.

After all, no one would think we could prevent drowning by making it against the law for boaters to wear life jackets.

 

[orpington]

The option I would have selected, was not an option: Absolutely nothing! Law abiding citizens like most of us on this forum are increasingly required to jump through hurdles. No matter what 'they' elect to control, if someone wishes to commit a crime, they will be able to get their hands on a firearm, somehow. Every time a crime is committed, the burden is placed upon law abiding citizens like you and I!

The option I selected was to decrease violence in movies, etc. I mean, this is common sense! I watched a GOOD movie from the late 1930's featuring Groucho Marx recently, and it was GREAT! Very funny, witty, and NO gun violence, or otherwise. If violence is needed in movies, it needs to be limited to maybe what is shown in Old Westerns. The junk on TV and at the movies now -- Kids watch it and think shooting up a few cops, blowing up the White House, and then blasting away everyone for miles around is reality.

 

[WestKentucky]

"Gun violence" "road rage" "serial killer" -and many other such phrases were created or adapted for the point of scaring people into action. What needs done? Start with an unbiased media and the rest will probably sort itself out.

If you look at the rates of various crimes you do see trends, but if that could be compared to media agendas I bet you would see rises in crime rate shortly after the emergence of each agenda. People who are looking for a platform to voice their troubles or manifesto or whatever recreate situations that media covers so that their point gets made in a large scale way. If media would focus solely on the victims and not make martyrs of mass murderers and such we wouldn't get this copycat crime issue.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Not so long ago, the Chicago Police released a study of homicide in Chicago. About 2/3s of homicides were committed by Blacks, about 1/3 by Hispanics, and only around 3% by Whites.

This tells us violence is CULTURAL. Violent cultures produce violent crime. If we want to deal with violent crime, we have to deal with the cultural aspects.

 

[BadAtScreenNames]

It's obvious to anyone not living in the wilderness that the majority of gun violence is isolated to the African American community.

You're right: 50.6% of U.S. murder offenders and victims are black.

But 45% of U.S. murder victims are white. And white murders fellow whites at far higher rates than blacks murder whites.

 

[rbernie]

You're right: 50.6% of U.S. murder offenders and victims are black.

But 45% of U.S. murder victims are white. And white murders fellow whites at far higher rates than blacks murder whites.

Your assertions miss the point that when viewed on a PER CAPITA basis, there is a very clear gap in homicide rates (both victim and offender) when viewed through the lens of race. In the US, the likelihood of being either a homicide victim or offender are more than double for blacks as that of whites.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf#page=11

I don't believe for an instant that the DoJ data implies any given race is more or less likely to engage in homicidal behaviors, but it does support the notion that culture is a key element to the problem and not just access to objects.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I don't believe for an instant that the DoJ data implies any given race is more or less likely to engage in homicidal behaviors, but it does support the notion that culture is a key element to the problem and not just access to objects.

Exactly right. If we want to reduce violence in this country, we must change the violent cultures.

 

[G'dale Mike]

I agree with the culture sentiment. It , in my mind revolves around the thug, drug, narcisistic lifestyle that is so prevelant today. I forget who said it, but hits the nail pretty squarely, " we don't have a gun problem in this country, we have a sin problem"

 

[BadAtScreenNames]

Your assertions miss the point that when viewed on a PER CAPITA basis, there is a very clear gap in homicide rates (both victim and offender) when viewed through the lens of race. In the US, the likelihood of being either a homicide victim or offender are more than double for blacks as that of whites.

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf#page=11

I don't believe for an instant that the DoJ data implies any given race is more or less likely to engage in homicidal behaviors, but it does support the notion that culture is a key element to the problem and not just access to objects.

Absolutely. There is a serious violence problem in black communities and that culture is a factor.

The point that I was aiming for--however ungracefully--is that American white communities are not lacking in violence. U.S. whites don't die at the rates that U.S. blacks do, but they do kill each other at more than twice the rate of most Western European nations.

 

[Thermactor]

The answer to gun violence which is perpetuated in gun-free zones, is to eliminate gun-free zones.

Do you think that cowards like Elliot Rodger, that Holmes kid, or Adam Lanza would have chosen a gun store, firing range, or police station to carry out their massacres?

 

[rbernie]

The point that I was aiming for--however ungracefully--is that American white communities are not lacking in violence. U.S. whites don't die at the rates that U.S. blacks do, but they do kill each other at more than twice the rate of most Western European nations

Which again supports the culture argument more than the 'access to objects' argument that the OP posited.

I've often wondered, as an aside, how homogenized the characterization of homicides and violence are in the data that is used to compare trends between nations. My sense is that is an inherent cultural and political difference in how 'data' is rolled up and collated, although I have no way to know the impact of the inherent mismatches...

 

[BadAtScreenNames]

Do you think that cowards like Elliot Rodger, that Holmes kid, or Adam Lanza would have chosen a gun store, firing range, or police station to carry out their massacres?

I'm far from a gun free zone supporter, but I think that eliminating the law will have as little impact as the law itself. As you say, nobody intent on slaughtering lots of people will go to a rifle range or police station, but there will always be plenty of soft targets.

During the past few years, mass shootings have occurred in apartment complexs, movie theater, IHOP, senior center, fitness club, homecoming party, and of course, Jared Loughner on the streets of Tucson. One guy in Missouri shot a cop, took the officer's sidearm, then storm into city hall with two guns.

 

[happygeek]

I've often wondered, as an aside, how homogenized the characterization of homicides and violence are in the data that is used to compare trends between nations. My sense is that is an inherent cultural and political difference in how 'data' is rolled up and collated, although I have no way to know the impact of the inherent mismatches...

There's been quite a bit written about those differences in reporting when it comes to England, for example http://www.theendrun.com/larry-pratt-british-gun-crime-stats-a-sham

 

[barnbwt]

nationwide police solve about 2/3 of the homicides

Huh, I thought it'd be lower than that; good work, LEOs

After all, no one would think we could prevent drowning by making it against the law for boaters to wear life jackets.

Nor would one think requiring all to wear life jackets would prevent all drownings. We simply offer/require the means to save oneself.

Kids watch it and think shooting up a few cops, blowing up the White House, and then blasting away everyone for miles around is reality

Sorry, couldn't hear you over me yelling "Get off my lawn!" Dern kids and their rap music...

This tells us violence is CULTURAL. Violent cultures produce violent crime. If we want to deal with violent crime, we have to deal with the cultural aspects.

Yup, desperation breeds desperate people, and it's hard to break the cycle (one could argue it actually can't be broken, and can merely be modified; it's worth noting the Mexican border has been restive since pre-colonial times). I suspect the social stations of all races of murders tend to be near the bottom where opportunities for making a living at anything respectable are more limited. I think the real 'cultural' problem with the situation lies with the people in power tolerating enduring poverty and social distress, instead of disrupting the cycle of poverty and poor choices (i.e. if there are no jobs in the ghetto, get the heck out of the ghetto and try again elsewhere. Rinse and repeat, same as any other place; humans are meant to migrate to where opportunities are most available, not remain in stockyards)

"Do you think that cowards like Elliot Rodger, that Holmes kid, or Adam Lanza would have chosen a gun store, firing range, or police station to carry out their massacres?"
Yes, because that is the most horrific thing Lanza could think of, and that Holmes could think of; Rodger and the Uncle Fester guy in AZ were obsessively fixated on their targets, and would seek them out no matter what.

TCB

 

[BadAtScreenNames]

My Platform for Reducing Gun Violence and Violent Crime in the USA:

1. Explore policy options that would encourage and help more citizens become armed, especially in violence-stricken communities. This could include a one-time forgiveness clause for people who have been in the justice system but whose lone conviction was 15-20 years ago

2. Extraordinarily tough sentencing guidelines-- minimum 15-20 years -- for anybody in possession of a stolen or otherwise illegal firearm, whether it was used in a crime or not. But this sentencing is not mandated; judges can make exceptions for the grandmother whose friend gave her a .38 snub because she was scared to be home alone.

3. Extraordinarily tough sentencing for people involved in straw purchases. Offer anonymity and a standing monetary reward for people whose tips help catch people illegally buying/selling/s a firearm.

4. To crack down on straw purchases, start requiring FFL background checks and records of sale in states like Indiana. Currently, that state's laws are casual, to say that least, and a river of guns flow from Indiana into Chicago and even eastward into New York.

5. Put college education classes in all prisons. Yes, it sucks that you're still paying back your student loans and these guys are going for free, but study after study finds that inmates who complete a college program in prison are 43% less likely to return to prison. This also means that the few thousand dollars per year that taxpayers put toward their education saves hundreds of thousands of dollars in future incarceration costs. An educated prisoner may also have a better chance of breaking free from the cultural morass that helped him on the path to criminal hood.

6. Defund the NRA. Letting the NRA represent gun owners is like making the John Birch Society the face of modern conservatism. Granted, the NRA has enormous clout on Capitol Hill, but in exchange, we're seeing the Balkanization of gun owners. Increasingly, non-gun-owning Americans, even those are aren't anti-gun, imagine us as a cross between George Zimmerman and Yosemite Sam. Some elements of the gun community are reinforcing that stereotypes (Open Carry Texas, every Wayn LaPierre TV appearance). The gun world needs a new leader and image campaign that properly and effectively frames gun ownership and shooting as a positive thing that Americans of all races, religions, and political persuasion take part in. Because right now, that is definitely what most people think about when they think of guns. And when some folks learn that I'm a gun owner, they're pretty ambivalent about the whole thing, but then they ask "Are you in the NRA, too?" Because that would indicate something else entirely

I've leaving out ideas like "get America back to good values." Such comments highlight a legitimate problem, but a systemic problem that isn't beyond any simple actionable items.

 

[sharpcoolman]

I believe we should return to the days of old you murder someone you get the same the death penalty no more of this oh we will send you to prison which is sometimes better than retirement homes. We need strict and decisive punishment. If we started doing this crime would drop so drastically.

 

[twofifty]

Kynoch that's a great poll, very thorough, balanced too.

I especially like that you're providing many choices that are quite appealing to most legal gun users (CCW, target, hunting), as well as a bunch that are the usual un-Constitutional and ineffective anti responses.

And yet, as of now, 40% feel that better and more mental health care $$$ would be most effective in reducing the number of crimes perpetrated with firearms.

I voted that way too, because I believe it's the nutbars that commit mass murder.

35% voted for harsher penalties, which makes sense too as I imagine that a fair proportion of the non-nutbar killers are sane enough to be deterred by the prospect of serious jail time or chair time. Provided they're not drunk or drugged up that is.

 

[barnbwt]

But this sentencing is not mandated; judges can make exceptions for the grandmother whose friend gave her a .38 snub because she was scared to be home alone.

So, for the 18 year old kid who sells a little weed to get by (which, lawful or not, is a very common occupation in many places to the exclusion of legitimate work) and bought a .38 snub from a friend because he is scared to live alone in his housing project...can get anything from an exception to 20 years based on his courtroom act and the judge's mood/bias? Seems a bit arbitrary, to me.

4. To crack down on straw purchases, start requiring FFL background checks and records of sale in states like Indiana.

Indiana doesn't require NICS checks of FFL sales? Or are you seriously advocating universal checks "but only in a few key places?" Because that's how they sold the border-state multi-handgun-sale reporting rules, and now they're exporting it to the rest of the USA. The "river of guns" stems from demand, and there's not a whole lot laws can do to stop that (the same demand being paid for by illicit narcotics, after all )

. Put college education classes in all prisons. Yes, it sucks that you're still paying back your student loans and these guys are going for free, but study after study finds that inmates who complete a college program in prison are 43% less likely to return to prison.

So the shockingly high re-offense rate is only half, making it merely frighteningly high? I also think there's a world of difference between the inmate who chooses to better himself while inside, vs. one compelled to play at bettering his position. Either way, when these guys are released, they still often find the same choice between illicit money and law-abiding destitution which landed them in prison in the first place.

6. Defund the NRA. Letting the NRA represent gun owners is like making the John Birch Society the face of modern conservatism. Granted, the NRA has enormous clout on Capitol Hill, but in exchange, we're seeing the Balkanization of gun owners. Increasingly, non-gun-owning Americans, even those are aren't anti-gun, imagine us as a cross between George Zimmerman and Yosemite Sam. Some elements of the gun community are reinforcing that stereotypes (Open Carry Texas, every Wayn LaPierre TV appearance). The gun world needs a new leader and image campaign that properly and effectively frames gun ownership and shooting as a positive thing that Americans of all races, religions, and political persuasion take part in. Because right now, that is definitely what most people think about when they think of guns. And when some folks learn that I'm a gun owner, they're pretty ambivalent about the whole thing, but then they ask "Are you in the NRA, too?" Because that would indicate something else entirely

That's a surprisingly thorough composite of like every recent news/anti-group caricature of the NRA & gun culture; bravo. Forgot the part about our token black guy, Colion Noir, though . Never mind the fact that the NRA is basically the group that held off UBC's last year (or did you support Manchin-Toomey?) and are head and shoulders more organized and, dare I say, professional about defending/promoting our rights in the government and court systems.

I honestly don't know what the deal is with the whole 'guns being racist' schtick, because it makes no sense whatsoever seeing as there are very few barriers to minorities getting involved anymore. Even in rural-ish East Texas, probably at least a third of the guys at the range are non-white (usually Hispanic, but not always. I don't know entirely why, but most black folks I've asked about shooting were either unexposed or unwilling to engage in shooting sports. A long cultural memory of arms possession leading to retribution and disarmament precludes more involvement from the AA community, I guess. Pity, because it's a lot of fun). Probably a quarter are women, and at least half if you count couples-skating. It's not a 'rainbow' by any means, but it seems to pretty much reflect the part of the community that has the means to practice at the gun range (which, unfortunately, blocks out a lot of folks of all backgrounds, and favors white males in this country). If you equate NRA membership with racism, you need some serious education from non MAIG sources. You also need a history lesson.

TCB