Are any of these people actual professionals?
Yes, the professionals that process the dead bodies.
Are any of these people actual professionals?
How can you be that far away? The longest distance i could possibly be from an intruder (and still be line of sight) is about 30 feet. Generally the longest distance i could be in our house is 20 feet. For this ambush of which you speak, we would generally be 10 feet apart.
Especially when it's not being absorbed fullyAh, well - always good to reiterate data.
Practice using your shotgun...over and over and over. Try having a well thought out and plausible plan should someone ever enter your dwelling with bad intentions. Then consider this "plan" over and over.
The notion that she is better off with her .380 pistol made me chuckle, on box o truth it had about equal penetration as the shot I am initially planning to use.
You amuse me because you sound like the guy where going to the corner store with anything less than a 10MM, a New York reload and 50 rounds of ammo is akin to committing suicide. I’m sure you’re a real riot in the “what .380 for SD” threads too.
What you don't get is that many reasonable people are trying to balance two things, their own safety with the safety of bystanders. Since you don’t get it, you can’t even contribute with “hay this is a more effective round with the same (lack of wall) penetration if you miss.” You seem to be in a rut of only thinking about your own skin.
I’m not going to send buckshot into their houses to increase the odds of my own survival by 0.001%.
Wow! Other than scoring a lucky CNS hit, I am sure I could get to someone (20 feet away) with a .380 and still be able to fight for a while. I am sure that after taking as many hits as i can give you (starting 20 feet away) with birdshot, you won't be interested in fighting when and if you get here.
I am sure I could get to someone (20 feet away) with a .380 and still be able to fight for a while.
How many intruders would take a hit to the face like that at 20 yards and keep coming? Plus you have 20 more yards to discourage him.
hat differance would you give it? And what data do you support that with?
I haven't patterned my HD gun yet
Wife? Can I really train my wife to have figgured all this out in advance?/QUOTE]
Does she have the same resistance to training and new information that you do?
ALERT ALERT ALERT, the following is actually a point and not a logical fallacy and or an attack. This actually addresses something I typed in a somewhat sensical way.
I am not trying to sell birdshot as a super duper penetrator. All the pistol caliber frangible rounds and the .223 rounds touted for acceptable HD (i.e. lack of over-penetration) all share the same limitation - it's hard to drill a BG 14" deep but stop in the first or second wall.
You might consider that certain rifle round may not provide the ideal penetration level but they are vastly superior to bird shot in that respect. I have shot living things with such rounds and the damage is notably different than the type of damage bird shot causes.
When i read this, I think "execellent advice . . . for the single man." I know there are women out there into this, but i don't think the typical woman is.
My wife will go to the range several times a year but she is not a gun nut. She is not going to walking the house practicing fire lanes a couple times a month. And she is even less comfortable than I am with a loading such that if she misses with a shot, she will be sending lead into a neighbors house.
If one wants to be able to use a gun in self defense it is axiomatic that one should be sufficiently proficient with it. Some of your comments seem to indicate that you envision you or your wife engaging is house clearly. That is dangerous, much more so if you have no clue what you are doing.
I am not, repeat not, suggesting that everyone has to be well trained and practice weekly with their firearms. I am suggesting that if you plan to employ a gun you ought to have a reasonable amount of QUALITY training. The likely hood of the type of outcomes goes up greatly with training.
Yes, the professionals that process the dead bodies.
I have an uncle who after graduating at the top of his class from Cornel Medical became a surgeon. He often does ER work. He also went to Iraq as a surgeon. He has seen his fair share of gun shot victims. He would tell you that bird shot is a better choice than rifle rounds, 00 buck or pistol rounds if you get to choose what you'll be shot with.
I do not think there is any new info or contentions to add to this thread. This is how all bird shot for HD threads go. Load what you think serves you best, and I genuinely hope neither of us ever have occasion to be able to say I told you so. I do not believe bird shot is good for HD (well perhaps if birds were attacking). Even if penetration issues are a serious concern I believe there are better choices. What is of at least equal concern to me is that tactics and skill sets tend to win the day even more so than equipment. You don't seem remotely open to improvements or obtaining more knowledge in either department. The good news is the odds of needing to shoot in HD is rather low.
Probably quite a bit better than #6copper plated #4 turkey loads 3"
So will my pellet rifle. Having 100 some pellets fired at the same time helps you with shot placement--increasing the odds that you hit something vital--but it's still about penetration. If all those 100 some pellets do is create a bunch of tiny flesh wounds then you're relying on the bad guy deciding to stop.At 20 feet it will shoot thru 1/4 inch plywood ever time I pull the trigger.
On the other hand, he might get the idea that the quickest way to improve his situation is to shoot back or jump that last 6-8 feet and stick you with his knife. You want him to not have that choice because his aorta and parts of his spine are leaving him headed down your hallway. Sorry for the gruesome imagery, but that's what has to happen in order for you to be in control of the situation. If it's just a massive flesh wound--even if it may kill him later--not hitting vitals still leaves the choice in the bad guy's hands. He may decide to run. He may decide to lie down, and he may decide to shank you.The distance from the corner of the bed to the bedroom door is 8 feet, I think at that range just about any load for a shotgun would transfer the idea to the bad guy that you dont like him and dont want him in your house.
It has been a while since I watched the video but if I recall, buckshot passed through four interior walls and then for an unknown distance.
When i read this, I think "execellent advice . . . for the single man." I know there are women out there into this, but i don't think the typical woman is.
My wife will go to the range several times a year but she is not a gun nut. She is not going to walking the house practicing fire lanes a couple times a month. And she is even less comfortable than I am with a loading such that if she misses with a shot, she will be sending lead into a neighbors house.
I'd rather have her confident in carrying and using a shotgun inside the house, with her knowing the limitations of her ammo. The notion that she is better off with her .380 pistol made me chuckle, on box o truth it had about equal penetration as the shot I am initially planning to use.
Who cares what to miss with?
Plus, there is that little fact that I would not even consider firing a weapon at an intruder until they are close enough to justify doing so (safely).
Fantastic! You're on the right path.I am going to pattern the different options at 20 feet. I notice the box o truth and the video I saw both generally jump from 00 buckshot to 8 birdshot. Well there are a lot of sizes in between. I want to see what I can find about performance/penetration of both. I might end up doing a little testing of my own, I notice there are lots of 0.99 cents a pound meat deals on big chunks.
Personally, I dont want to leave it up to a "lighter" load in order to try compensating for any lack of ability.
Birdshot should not be used for defense. Having tested many loads at many ranges on various targets just having fun at informal shooting areas, it will only destroy something solid within about 2-3 feet. It would not penetrate into tissue very far but within muzzle blast distances of 2 feet it will do serious damage.
Within 1-2 feet it would easily blow open a rib cage, or shatter a skull. You can chop 2x4 pieces of wood in half at that range without a hiccup. Back up 1-2 feet more and it just occasionaly blows them in half or takes out large chunks, and back up another 1-2 feet and it just peppers the target with the same load. Huge difference.
Having experience with powerheads, more commonly known as bang guns, I also know a shotgun loaded with anything would be deadly with the muzzle touching the target, but it could blow or bulge the barrel. The muzzle blast combined with any shot within tissue would destroy the tissue. Underwater blanks do as much damage when fired with the muzzle touching as rounds with projectiles do. The muzzle blast does far more damage than the projectile ever could.
The difference 1-2 feet make with birdshot is so huge that it would be foolish to use it for home defense. Once some of the shot leaves the shotcup it ceases to be effective. Prior to that it acts like a sintered slug.
An old poaching trick is to cut the top of a birdshot shell just under the shot most of the way around the shell. When the round was fired the entire top of the shotshell was blown down the barrel, acting more or less like a slug (dangerous with a choke). Those rounds would easily take down deer according to many poachers.
So a plastic slug filled with tiny birdshot acts almost like an actual slug. Similarly a shotcup from 1-2 feet filled with birdshot is not much different.
But from 5 feet away it will just make a light shallow wound. The individual pellets once they leave the shotcup will not have enough individual mass to penetrate enough to reach anything important.
So inches -1 foot away absolutely lethal, 2 feet still devastating, 3 feet may or may not work. 5-10 feet won't stop anyone determined to shoot back.
So birdshot is reliably effective from about 1 yard.
Do you want to limit yourself to 1 yard?
Gryffydd