What to carry in spare mags, JHP or FMJ?

[mountainclmbr]

During the week when I must sheepilize before entering my workplace I carry a Kahr MK40 in a pocket holster and a spare mag in another pocket. I remove them in the parking lot and store them in a location that would take an extensive search by someone breaking in my car.

On weekends in winter I often switch to a Para Ord 12.45 in an IWB holster at 4 o'clock and a double mag holder on the belt at 9 o'clock. I have a jacket to cover everything.

I was in a not so nice area that happens to have some excellent ethnic restaraunts for lunch today. The best restaraunt always seems to have a table of people in a corner that look like Asian gangsters and they always seem to watch everyone and never have food on the table. They may be husbands of workers...or real gangsters. I had the 12.45 with the two extra mags. I had all loaded with Speer 200 +P JHP. I was just thinking that if I go through my first 12 rd mag in a SHTF situation, wouldn't the BG's be behind cover where FMJ would be a better choice for one or both of the spare mags?

Then there is the situation with the Kahr. Lower capacity, but would you carry FMJ with only one spare mag?

Does anyone else have an opinion on this?

 

[TamThompson]

I carry HP's in my Glock 30, and in my spare mag I carry 230 gr. FMJ's for the reason you cited. You could also run into the problem of attackers wearing very bulky winter clothes.

 

[PALEFACE]

just my two cents but when you carry a 45 it should always be loaded with fmj, that's what it shoots best. i go with a middle weight jhp pushed as hard as possible in 9 para and 40sw regardless of the situation.

 

[Unisaw]

And, let the games begin!!!

 

[No4Mk1*]

Extra mags get FMJ for the reason you state, but mostly because I shoot all current carry ammo everytime I go to the range and I am too cheap to replace 3 mags of JHP every week. I figure the likelihood of needing to change mags in a gunfight is pretty small anyways and I can save $50-$100 per year by using only one mag of JHP at each range trip.

 

[armoredman]

Split the differance, and get the best of both worlds - Federal Expanding Full Metal Jacket....

 

[Mulliga]

How about staggering them? Is there any downside to loading it 1/2 JHP, 1/2 FMJ?

I've heard even 9mm hollowpoints will penetrate some thin walls and thin materials.

 

[PATH]

Interesting. In New Jersey they frown on HP. Whereas in New York it is preferred for defensive use. (At least that is what the Sheriff's Dept. fella teaching the class told me!) Go figure! I figure you carry what works best for you and you feel comfortable using.

 

[Shaughn Leayme]

Given that the profile of many hollwpoints in 45 emulate that of ball or feature a truntuated cone and the vast majority of pistols will feed just about anything (1911,Sig,Glock etc) I don't reccomend ball for primary carry, barring regulatory or reliabilty requirements.

A hollow point that fails to expand is BALL and will have all the attributes of the same.

Mixing loads in a magazine has a potential of causing all sorts of malfunctions.

The load I use has a 230 XTP (45 acp GM 1911) loaded up to +P velocities and it does have a reputation as a tough bullet.

If I run thru 25 rounds in my primary, then I most likely have a problem totally out of proportion to my ability to handle it anyway and I don't think having a magazine of ball will make all that much difference.

I'll stick to hollow points and leave the ball for plinking.

 

[Logistar]

I do it based on my current situation. When I go on a long trip to go hiking I load JHP in the gun and FMJ in the spare mag. When I hit the trail, I switch mags (assuming that if I meet up with a large animal I might want more penetration). I will still fire one JHP before using the FMJs from the magazine.

After I return from the trail I will switch bach to JHP.

I suppose staggering might not be a bad idea. The biggest problem I see with it might be overpenetration of the FMJ rounds with some calibers.

As to your original question, I usually just carry nothing but JHP but I have often had the following thought.

"If I haven't resolved the situation after firing 10 rounds (or whatever your gun holds) MAYBE I NEED different ammo because I obviously have been ineffective using what I have been shooting!"

Hmmmm...now you've got me thinking again!

 

[sturmruger]

The more the merrier!

In my main carry mag I use 6 HP and then 4 FMJ. In my backup mag I start with two HP and then stagger them throughout the rest of the mag. I am shooting .40 and have never had a malfunction of any kind so it doesn't bother me to do this. If your gun does not like a particular type of ammo you might want to rethink mixing up ammo in you CCW mags.

 

[Diggler]

Uh, what type of cover are you talking about that will stop a JHP but will allow a FMJ to pass through?

Use a good JHP in your carry gun and spare mag. Tap, tap, tap, a few seconds and it will be over. Spare mags are for feed malfunctions.

Just IMHO.

 

[Mannlicher]

with my carry guns, the load is always the same, no switching of bullet types. If I ever needed it, there would be too much going on to worry about which bullet was needed for what scenerio.

 

[Heraclitus]

SHTF situations are extremely unpredictable. Consider the real-world advantages and disadvantages of either type of ammo, and you'll be good or bad either way.

Personally, I'll go with hollowpoints. Chances that a hollowpoint will not penetrate the obstacle in question are substantially slimmer than those of an FMJ going directly through it, hitting the BG, and:

A) not dumping most of its energy inside him, and
B) hitting something behind him.

Moreover, you wouldn't shoot an obstacle with an FMJ if you didn't think there was at least a minimal chance that it might be breached with a hollowpoint, would you?

Just a thought.


Best regards,

~ Heraclitus

 

[spartacus2002]

A pistol is something I would use to fight my way home to my rifle

 

[mountainclmbr]

I have followed the observations of LOGISTAR in my CCW. I live high in the Rockies right next to a national forest. Bears, mountain lions, elk, moose, etc are not uncommon. I usually change mags from JHP to FMJ in 40 cal for cutting firewood and inspecting the homestead. The 40 cal is not optimum for the wild critters around here. I have two spare mags for the .40. one has 155 gr Gold Dots and the other has 170 gr FMJ. I will switch the spare mag based on the situation.

In town I will often carry a 45ACP. I was wondering if I should add a FMJ mag to my backups (1 FMJ, 1 JHP).

 

[clubsoda22]

I use rangers, so it's a non issue due to the reverse taper. Winchester tests them through both windshields and sheet metal. I'm pretty sure GD's will function pretty much the same.

 

[Dionysusigma]

Pick a different restaurant...

 

[earthworm]

I carry a Glasier in the chamber in my 9mm then alternate 125gr HP & BEP softpoints in my mags.All these loads function & shoot to the same point of aim.When I packed a revolver I alternated Glasiers & Federal NyClad HPs.

 

[JamisJockey]

Urban daily activites, I carry a spare mag with JHP's.
If I'm out in the boonies, I carry two, one with JHP's one with FMJ's.
If I'm carrying my revolver, 2 spare speedloaders with JHP's.

 

[geekWithA.45]

Ball, for digging a bg out from behind cover with a sidearm?

Guys, these are HANDGUNS.

I mean, military operators complain about .223s inability to "dig out", and pine for .308 for that purpose.

Ya know, .308? 150+ grains @ 2800+ fps? (PF: 420)
compared to say, .45acp: 230 grains @850 fps? (PF: 196)

IMO, a handgun, being a comparitively low powered affair with a very limited ammunition supply is not the right tool for digging anything out of anywhere.

If the fellow is standing behind sheetrock/overturned table/whatever, the difference in ouchie (delta ouchie?) on him between jhp as fmj won't be appreciable. I mean, I'll concede that FMJ is going to have marginally better sheetrock penetration in the lab, but it's not like an expander's gonna stop dead and just sort of...bloop...out the other side, clattering to the ground at the bg's feet.

If he's standing behind concrete, don't waste your ammo, it ain't gonna work.

And since we're discussing "digging out", whatever happened to rule 4?

 

[brownie0486]

Just the other day a Boston cop was shot through a front door on a warrant entry with a 45. It didn't mention hp or ball specifically in the story.

Hit the cops vest and he survived.

In another Boston PD ocurrence years ago [ late 70's ] one was shot similairy through a fornt door with no vest and died on the porch by bleeding out. The bullet [ ball ] traversed from his hip, down his right leg and out the calf [ after going through a solid wood door.

In my own testing and training in hostage rescue/swat tactics using 45 gov models, ball will penetrate very well through not just platerboard but solid oak doors and have enough residual energy to kill instantly if it's mark is right. HP's will also get through but lose more energy at the other side.

In testing on car doors with both in 45, the ball went clean through the drivers door, and dimpled the outer skin on the far side. Certainly enough energy to kill the driver. The HP's only made it through the drivers door rarely, leaving their jackets peeled off, those that made it through had little enough energy to get into the upholstery of the opposite door.

Thr trick with auto glass enrtry is to have the muzzle at the glass when you fire. It holds it trajectory long enough to kill the closest occupant. Either ball or HP will do the same thing in this way.

Lead round nose or semi wad is even better at pentrating hard targets, particularly at oblique angles. In testing ball jacketed against LRN in 230 grain config, the lead could get into the car at 45 degrees where the jacketed ball glanced off most of the time. LRN holds its trajectory, apparently due to the lead deforming on impact which gives the round time to continue on it's present course and not be redirected so quickly.

On a burned out van back in 77, 230 ww2 USGI ball passed through the body of one side and heavily dimpled the other side of the van almost making it out.

Digging one out from behind solid wood doors, and anything less isn't that difficult, but I'd rather be using 230RNL at 900 per than jacketed HP's to do so.

Into a vehicle, the lead is the best performer in pentration with enough stopping power to end it. Ball is next if the angle is not too obtuse, HPs have a hard time getting into the interior and should not be relied on.

If I'm going to possibly need hard target penetration, a spare mag of lead ball is on order. Barring that, jacketed ball for better penetration over HP's will be used.

Brownie

 

[WT]

In my experience .45 ACP FMJ's work very well on Asians.

 

[mountainclmbr]

Just wondering...if 13 JHPs don't work should I be trying more of the same? I can think of situations that would go both ways.

 

[Anthony]

Massad Ayoob and John Farnam have long advocated carrying one spare magazine of deep penetrating ammunition as a "last ditch magazine" for use against a BG behind cover. Ayoob taught us that the autopistol's advantage of being fast to reload also makes it fast to change the type of ammunition loaded into it. Leroy Thompson, the VIP Protection instructor, has also advocated a similar practice with not only pistols, but semiautomatic or selective fire rifles.

Ayoob illustrated this point in the 1980s with an example of a Houston police officer who carried a SIG-Sauer P-220 loaded with 185-grain Silvertips and carried a separate magazine of CCI-Speer 200-grain "flying ashtray" JHPs. Based on his own experiments, he found that the Speer bullets deflated an automobile tire very quickly compared to the Silvertips. The day came when he was pursuing a car full of armed thugs. He exchanged the Silvertip magazine in his SIG for the one loaded with Speers while driving with one hand. He approached the BG's car from the right side, fired the Silvertip into their rear tire with little effect, and followed it up with six Speers that quickly deflated the tire and brought the subject car to a halt. While exiting his vehicle, the police officer reloaded with a magazine of Silvertips to back up the one Speer left in the SIG's chamber to cover the suspects until backup arrived.

Personally, I routinely carry Remington 230-grain Golden Sabers in my Colt 1911 with two spare magazines of Remington 185-grain +P Golden Sabers and one spare magazine (with a red basepad) of Federal 230-grain FMJ Match. Sometimes I will substitute or add a spare magazine of blue tipped Glaser Safety Slugs...with a matching blue basepad of course. The 230-grain GS's and FMJ's have the same point of impact at 25 yards while the 185 +P's share the same point of impact at 100 yards. The Glasers are useful for family gatherings with my wife's huge clan or drugged out BG's who soak up JHPs and need to have a lot of tissue destroyed quickly to be stopped. The 100 yard point of impact similarity may not impress you city dwellers, but out here in the flatlands of Texas you can pass up 25 yards very quickly!

If I am carrying my nickel plated S&W M-57 .41 Magnum I carry Winchester 175-grain Silvertips in the gun and the three speedloaders in my shoulder rig. In one speedloaded I carry in my pocket I keep Federal 250-grain Hardcast SWC hunting loads for extremely deep penetration. Ironically I have found both loads share a close point of impact at 25 yards.

Also, I concur with Brownie's comments 100% based on my own experiments and the results of a 1970's police test I audited.

Food for thought...but I'd carry one "last ditch" magazine of Federal 230-grain Match or a high quality 230-grain lead SWC if I was in your shoes.