jethro75
Member
I want to start loading some 454s for hunting and was wondering if anybody had any suggestions on bullet type/wieght and powder.
Whats a good 454 Casull hunting bullet?
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hairtrigger
Member
I use cast bullet with gas check on top of H110 powder.
My RSH has pleasant accuracy with this combo. I use this for Whitetail deer which get reasonably large feeding on Ohio's corn crop
My RSH has pleasant accuracy with this combo. I use this for Whitetail deer which get reasonably large feeding on Ohio's corn crop
Travis Two
member
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Check out the 340 gr. SSK bullet cast in the Casull alloy at www.PENNBULLETS.com Load at 34grs of WW.296 does it for me.
jethro75
Member
Thanks for the feed back.
I was looking to find one of the jacketed bullets that would be suitable for the 454. I was looking in the sierra book and it doesnt help much, but it says be carefull because some bullets disigned for the 45 colt wont hold up at the 454s velocitys. I would like to find something for both white tail and ocaisionally black bear. Any and all help would be appriatiated.
I was looking to find one of the jacketed bullets that would be suitable for the 454. I was looking in the sierra book and it doesnt help much, but it says be carefull because some bullets disigned for the 45 colt wont hold up at the 454s velocitys. I would like to find something for both white tail and ocaisionally black bear. Any and all help would be appriatiated.
Grumulkin
Member
I would suggest one of the Hornady XTP bullets in a weight anywhere from 200 to 300 grains. I shoot them in a 450 S&W Magnum so they should work in a 454 Casul as well.
I used .357 Hornady XTP bullets in a 357 Herrett to take Black Wildebeest, Springbok and a Mountain Reedbuck. I recovered a couple of bullets from the Black Wildebeest; they were beautifully mushroomed and held together well.
I used .357 Hornady XTP bullets in a 357 Herrett to take Black Wildebeest, Springbok and a Mountain Reedbuck. I recovered a couple of bullets from the Black Wildebeest; they were beautifully mushroomed and held together well.
jethro75
Member
Thanks Grumulkin. Thats kinda what I was leaning toward, but I thought I read some where that they didnt expand well, but the more I think about it I think they were talking about on humans for self defense (through denim and jelly testing). I think I might give those a try in maybe the 240 or 250 grain. Does anyone know what the difference is in hornadys jacketed hollow point and the jacketed hollow point magnum?
.45man
Member
jethro75: The FA brand 300gr JFP is a strong, hardcore bullet that can safely be driven to max pressure/velocity. Very accurate. I can usually place 5 shots inside 2 inches from 100 yards, using a Leupold 4X scope seen here:http://home.comcast.net/~45man/misc_images/454Casull.jpeg.
As for the differences between the XTP and XTP-MAG is that the MAG bullets can be driven beyond velocities of 1400 fps. It is not adviseable to drive the plain XTP bullets beyond 1400 fps.
Travis Two: 34gr of W296 seems kind of high. I know H110 and W296 are very close in burning rates. I called Hodgdon recently and they advised me that the load for a 340gr Lead bullet should be between 23-25.5gr H110. You may very well be correct, however I would add that it would be prudent to call Winchester and get them to authenticate that load data.
I was recently in search of such load data and the results can be seen here:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/570103904/m/7211091811/r/7211091811#7211091811
and here:
http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10149&PN=9
As for the differences between the XTP and XTP-MAG is that the MAG bullets can be driven beyond velocities of 1400 fps. It is not adviseable to drive the plain XTP bullets beyond 1400 fps.
Travis Two: 34gr of W296 seems kind of high. I know H110 and W296 are very close in burning rates. I called Hodgdon recently and they advised me that the load for a 340gr Lead bullet should be between 23-25.5gr H110. You may very well be correct, however I would add that it would be prudent to call Winchester and get them to authenticate that load data.
I was recently in search of such load data and the results can be seen here:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/570103904/m/7211091811/r/7211091811#7211091811
and here:
http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10149&PN=9
Travis Two
member
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Load depends on which gun you load for. Freedom arms guns are the strongest with loads running up to max case capacity in the 36-38 grs. range depending upon the brand of brass. (they vary on oal hence total case capacity) and the ability to seat and crimp the load. pressures are in the 65000 psi to 70000 range and probably higher. 26.grs was the start load. The Super Redhawk is strong as is the BFR but not sure what their psi rating is at. The Tarus is weak and needs the lighest of the heavyweight loads not to exceed 55000 psi loadings. best to start out lower and work load up for your gun. Soft core jacketed bullets can have the centers shot out leaving behind a nasty surprise. Hard core jacketed is better but gives up a good bit of velocity(150-200fps) to the hard cast. Hard core jacketed are not going to expand anyway so use the best solid going,A hard cast.
loadedround
Member
jethro75, I have been using a 300 gr "Laser-Cast" bullet by Oregon Trail over a charge of "Lil-gun" and have found that combination to be a very effective hunting load. Just my two cents worth.
Travis Two
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- Aug 30, 2005
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- 115
To .45 Man. I see that Mr. Palermo has listed a post at Handloads.com at the link you specified in your post here. It verifys my own loading information.
huntershooter
Member
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- Dec 4, 2005
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- 1,058
Hornady makes a 300 gr. XTP designed for the .454. You don't specify what you'll be hunting; that will have great bearing on bullet weight and type.
Black Snowman
Member
Another vote for the XTP. Make sure you get the ones that say XTP Mag and not just XTP. They have a heavier jacket and a shallower cavity to perform correctly at high velocities. I like H110 to push mine but that's mainly because I've been using it a while. I'd like to switch to little-gun but can't find data for 50 AE for it and I'd rather not have another powder to deal with.
.45man
Member
Travis Two:
Since you are advocating high pressure loads, I trust you and others here ponder the following five-minute read. If you need to load a 340gr bullet with anything over 30.0gr W296 or H110 in a FA .454 Casull, you would be better served with a bigger gun, like a .500 S&W Mag. I would like to add a few final facts before I exit from this discussion. I am a mechanical engineer with a fine understanding of physics, metallurgy, and the mechanics of firearms. I have been shooting for 20 years, reloading for nearly 12, and gunsmithing for about 8.
MR. PALERMO:
I listened to ALL of what Mr. Palermo personally told me at the gun show. I also called him at the factory on two different occasions to further question what he told me when I finally received the bullets. I wanted to further authenticate what he told me so, like any smart reloader, I set out to collect data on this load combination from various sources. This was the reason for the posting at handloads.com and several other sites. I did not take what he told me out of context. On the contrary, Mr. Palermo sounds slightly insulted that I would questioning his load data.
MR. PALERMO SPEAKS:
http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10149&PN=9....."I tell customers to START with 26 grains of ww296 and work up. Recoil starts to get serious once you hit 30 grs., and above. Are these Max Loads above SAMMI pressure specs? yes,.....As to the Freedom Arms gun, the gun can take as much powder of WW296 that you can fit into the case and STILL SEAT THE BULLET TO THE CRIMP GROOVE and crimp. That load density will be somewhere around 36 grs. of WW296"
According to Mr. Palermo, am I to believe that we are to START loading above the max recommendations of the powder companies, Freedom Arms, and SAAMI max specs and then work up from there? Mr. Palermo's rationale for exceeding these recommendations is that SAAMI data was not available when this load was generated. Well we are in 2006 and SAAMI data is available. Pressure testing technology has come a long way in 20 years and to make such a load data claim without obtaining the corresponding load density and chamber pressure data is absurd. And to cling to that rationale is weak at best. This rationale is no different than saying it is safe to rev your engine to max rpm everyday for as long as you own your car and hope that every time you do it, the rev-limiter prevents the engine from blowing. God forbid that one time Murphy’s Law is enforced.
FREEDOM ARMS:
I further contacted FA and spoke to Mr. John Carey *and* Mr. Bob Baker who confirmed a max charge of 31.5gr of H110 with a 300gr bullet creates a pressure right at 65Kpsi. Both Mr. Carey and Mr. Baker further stated that 26.0gr of H110 is the max recommended charge for a 335gr Lead Hard cast bullet in order to stay under 65Kpsi. Mr. Carey said that the bullet manufacturer should be the final source for load data. When I told Mr. Carey that Mr. Palermo of Penn bullets concurred with caution when approaching a 36.0gr charge of W296, Mr. Carey was quite troubled. I am not even going to repeat what Mr. Baker had to say….let me just say the big dog at the factory emphatically stated DON’T EVEN THINK ABOUT GOING BEYOND 30.0gr OF H110 OR W296.
HODGDON:
I also called Hodgdon who recommended a max charge of 25.5gr of H110 when using a 340gr Hardcast bullet. And yes, I understand this is data to support the loading in a Taurus and other FA wana-bees.
RULES OF THE BOARD:
Exceeding published data is not good advice, EVER! In this case, the load data YOU posted is WAY-WAY-WAY over factory and SAAMI specs. You should state this when recommending such data. You are required to do so in accordance with the rules of this board. But then you probably did not know it was this far over max when you posted this load, until you contacted Mr. Palermo yourself.
Dont get me wrong, I have great respect for Mr. Palermo, and I am sure he has forgotten more about bullets than I ever hope to know in my lifetime. And I am sure that the FA revolver can handle 100K psi without even a yawn. However the advice you and Mr. Palermo are promoting when loading such a high-intensity round (especially to people who may be new to reloading) is not consistent with safe and prudent loading practices. Who knows, this load data could approach the yield strength of the metal used in the revolver. And for what??………bragging rights??
I am not sure how anyone would consider 30.0+gr of H110 or W296 safe, prudent, and reasonable, especially in light of the above information. I certainly don’t want anyone reading this to ruin their day because they thought, “oh, it is a FA, a few more grains of powder is no big deal….” Or for the person who doesn’t realize that some guns chambered for the FA .454 cant take such pressures.
Sir, I respectfully wish you well and continued safety in pursuit of reloading excellence.
Since you are advocating high pressure loads, I trust you and others here ponder the following five-minute read. If you need to load a 340gr bullet with anything over 30.0gr W296 or H110 in a FA .454 Casull, you would be better served with a bigger gun, like a .500 S&W Mag. I would like to add a few final facts before I exit from this discussion. I am a mechanical engineer with a fine understanding of physics, metallurgy, and the mechanics of firearms. I have been shooting for 20 years, reloading for nearly 12, and gunsmithing for about 8.
MR. PALERMO:
I listened to ALL of what Mr. Palermo personally told me at the gun show. I also called him at the factory on two different occasions to further question what he told me when I finally received the bullets. I wanted to further authenticate what he told me so, like any smart reloader, I set out to collect data on this load combination from various sources. This was the reason for the posting at handloads.com and several other sites. I did not take what he told me out of context. On the contrary, Mr. Palermo sounds slightly insulted that I would questioning his load data.
MR. PALERMO SPEAKS:
http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10149&PN=9....."I tell customers to START with 26 grains of ww296 and work up. Recoil starts to get serious once you hit 30 grs., and above. Are these Max Loads above SAMMI pressure specs? yes,.....As to the Freedom Arms gun, the gun can take as much powder of WW296 that you can fit into the case and STILL SEAT THE BULLET TO THE CRIMP GROOVE and crimp. That load density will be somewhere around 36 grs. of WW296"
According to Mr. Palermo, am I to believe that we are to START loading above the max recommendations of the powder companies, Freedom Arms, and SAAMI max specs and then work up from there? Mr. Palermo's rationale for exceeding these recommendations is that SAAMI data was not available when this load was generated. Well we are in 2006 and SAAMI data is available. Pressure testing technology has come a long way in 20 years and to make such a load data claim without obtaining the corresponding load density and chamber pressure data is absurd. And to cling to that rationale is weak at best. This rationale is no different than saying it is safe to rev your engine to max rpm everyday for as long as you own your car and hope that every time you do it, the rev-limiter prevents the engine from blowing. God forbid that one time Murphy’s Law is enforced.
FREEDOM ARMS:
I further contacted FA and spoke to Mr. John Carey *and* Mr. Bob Baker who confirmed a max charge of 31.5gr of H110 with a 300gr bullet creates a pressure right at 65Kpsi. Both Mr. Carey and Mr. Baker further stated that 26.0gr of H110 is the max recommended charge for a 335gr Lead Hard cast bullet in order to stay under 65Kpsi. Mr. Carey said that the bullet manufacturer should be the final source for load data. When I told Mr. Carey that Mr. Palermo of Penn bullets concurred with caution when approaching a 36.0gr charge of W296, Mr. Carey was quite troubled. I am not even going to repeat what Mr. Baker had to say….let me just say the big dog at the factory emphatically stated DON’T EVEN THINK ABOUT GOING BEYOND 30.0gr OF H110 OR W296.
HODGDON:
I also called Hodgdon who recommended a max charge of 25.5gr of H110 when using a 340gr Hardcast bullet. And yes, I understand this is data to support the loading in a Taurus and other FA wana-bees.
RULES OF THE BOARD:
Exceeding published data is not good advice, EVER! In this case, the load data YOU posted is WAY-WAY-WAY over factory and SAAMI specs. You should state this when recommending such data. You are required to do so in accordance with the rules of this board. But then you probably did not know it was this far over max when you posted this load, until you contacted Mr. Palermo yourself.
Dont get me wrong, I have great respect for Mr. Palermo, and I am sure he has forgotten more about bullets than I ever hope to know in my lifetime. And I am sure that the FA revolver can handle 100K psi without even a yawn. However the advice you and Mr. Palermo are promoting when loading such a high-intensity round (especially to people who may be new to reloading) is not consistent with safe and prudent loading practices. Who knows, this load data could approach the yield strength of the metal used in the revolver. And for what??………bragging rights??
I am not sure how anyone would consider 30.0+gr of H110 or W296 safe, prudent, and reasonable, especially in light of the above information. I certainly don’t want anyone reading this to ruin their day because they thought, “oh, it is a FA, a few more grains of powder is no big deal….” Or for the person who doesn’t realize that some guns chambered for the FA .454 cant take such pressures.
Sir, I respectfully wish you well and continued safety in pursuit of reloading excellence.
.45man
Member
Mr. Palermo speaks.....
See this link for his final thoughts on load data....
http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10149&PN=9
See this link for his final thoughts on load data....
http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=10149&PN=9
Travis Two
member
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2005
- Messages
- 115
In todays sue happy society it easy to see why the various powder/ bullet/ gun makers have backed off from the "hotter" loadings that used to be published. One only has to look at various manuals published over the years to see the discrepencies. While the 26gr.starting loading that Mr.Palermo suggests is listed as a WW max load ;the pressure is only at 41,600 cup which is under the maximum Sammi spec. I believe. Mr.Palermo is probably right in that I'm probably not getting any more out of the gun/load combination with 34grs. than I would with 30 grs. I will have to do some chrno work to see if thats true. The 34gr. load has worked well for me with no problems for a number of years.
jethro75
Member
I think I did say in one post that I intend to use it for deer and ocasionally black bear, if not there it is. I have a Tuarus Rageing Bull, so I wont be shooting for the pressures of a FA. Im going to try some AA9 becuase I currently have enough of it to play with, think this would work ok? I did get some 240gr Hornady XTP mags. I think these would be better suited for whitetail then the 300gr from some research I did. Thanks again for all the help.
happyhuntr
Member
454 bullets
i have been loading the 454 with xtp hp bullets with good results using h110 powder.
i am looking to load cast bullets with gas checks ,so
if i may ask another question here- what diameter cast bullets are you shooting? what dia./brand gas checks are you using? i am looking at 250-300gr bullets
thanks
happyhuntr
i have been loading the 454 with xtp hp bullets with good results using h110 powder.
i am looking to load cast bullets with gas checks ,so
if i may ask another question here- what diameter cast bullets are you shooting? what dia./brand gas checks are you using? i am looking at 250-300gr bullets
thanks
happyhuntr
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