bigedp51
member
Make sure you rotate your head and run it through two wash cycles and you will have clean cam over. 
What's all the fuss over "Cam Over"?
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“Maybe your buddy got a POS set”
918V, I would never take the liberty to call 1858 ‘my buddy’, I believe him when he said three of his shell holders were off when measured from the deck of the shell holder to the top of the shell holder. POS? Ask Redding if they made POS shell holders, I still have my #6 set that has three shell holders that are off .003, the combination gives me a gap in the legendary .002 thousands increments advertised. He expected better from Redding and got it, they could have bonded, my opinion, Redding had no choice. I have the liberty to imagine how Redding felt/feels when 1858 exercises his option to purchase Redding products.
Again, I purchased a #6 set for $5.00, there is nothing the Redding shell holders can do that can not be accomplished with a feeler gage, with an exception, I have the option of adjust the die off the shell holder in increments of .001 thousands, that means I have 10 options with the feeler gage, for $40.00 I have the luxury of 5 options. I do not push tools for anyone, I am the big fan of a reloader knowing how to use the tools he owns, I do not think every question should be answered with purchase another tool, I do not believe owning an after market tool should catapult the owner on an ego trip, I said Redding makes it a point, their shell holder is needed, they call it a ‘competition component’ one more time, I adjust my die every time I install one in the press, I do not secure the lock ring to the die, again, Dillon lock rings do not have set screws, Lee lock rings do not have set screws, and that does not lock me up, but for other reloaders there is no other option, they insist on locking the lock ring to the die with a set the set screw, back to the part where Dillon does not use a set screw, Lee does not use a set screw.
F. Guffey
918V, I would never take the liberty to call 1858 ‘my buddy’, I believe him when he said three of his shell holders were off when measured from the deck of the shell holder to the top of the shell holder. POS? Ask Redding if they made POS shell holders, I still have my #6 set that has three shell holders that are off .003, the combination gives me a gap in the legendary .002 thousands increments advertised. He expected better from Redding and got it, they could have bonded, my opinion, Redding had no choice. I have the liberty to imagine how Redding felt/feels when 1858 exercises his option to purchase Redding products.
Again, I purchased a #6 set for $5.00, there is nothing the Redding shell holders can do that can not be accomplished with a feeler gage, with an exception, I have the option of adjust the die off the shell holder in increments of .001 thousands, that means I have 10 options with the feeler gage, for $40.00 I have the luxury of 5 options. I do not push tools for anyone, I am the big fan of a reloader knowing how to use the tools he owns, I do not think every question should be answered with purchase another tool, I do not believe owning an after market tool should catapult the owner on an ego trip, I said Redding makes it a point, their shell holder is needed, they call it a ‘competition component’ one more time, I adjust my die every time I install one in the press, I do not secure the lock ring to the die, again, Dillon lock rings do not have set screws, Lee lock rings do not have set screws, and that does not lock me up, but for other reloaders there is no other option, they insist on locking the lock ring to the die with a set the set screw, back to the part where Dillon does not use a set screw, Lee does not use a set screw.
F. Guffey
bigedp51
member
The idea behind reloading is to load accurate ammunition that is concentric with very little run out.
Jambing a feeler gauge or shim under the case to lift it off the deck of the shell holder can and will cause case misalignment and error. The design of the shell holder lets the case float and self center in the die and you can't do that by jambing shims under the case and restricting case movement.
The very reloading manuals you people are not reading explains how to check to see if the case is binding in the shell holder.
You people should be more worried about centering your dies to remove alignment error than worrying about the press going over center.
You would not see three pages and fifty some postings at http://www.accurateshooter.com/ talking about "cam over" when concentric ammo means accuracy.
When you have well known competitive shooters telling you to place rubber o-rings "UNDER" your dies lock ring this should tell you that shell and die alignment are important. And you don't achieve this by shoving shims in your shell holder and restricting case movement.
O-Rings on Dies May Reduce Run-Out
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/o-rings-on-dies-may-reduce-run-out/
Jambing a feeler gauge or shim under the case to lift it off the deck of the shell holder can and will cause case misalignment and error. The design of the shell holder lets the case float and self center in the die and you can't do that by jambing shims under the case and restricting case movement.
The very reloading manuals you people are not reading explains how to check to see if the case is binding in the shell holder.
You people should be more worried about centering your dies to remove alignment error than worrying about the press going over center.
You would not see three pages and fifty some postings at http://www.accurateshooter.com/ talking about "cam over" when concentric ammo means accuracy.
When you have well known competitive shooters telling you to place rubber o-rings "UNDER" your dies lock ring this should tell you that shell and die alignment are important. And you don't achieve this by shoving shims in your shell holder and restricting case movement.
O-Rings on Dies May Reduce Run-Out
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/o-rings-on-dies-may-reduce-run-out/
We are interested in mechanical position, not torque.
'Caming over' removes all the press slop from the final position of the shell in the die (within the limits of the press leverage and flex).
The mechanical advantage theoretically goes to infinity as one of the lever arms goes to zero (toggle block passes under the pin on the bottom of the ram).
Divide by zero for the mechanical advantage.
The whole toggle block press linkage was the RCBS Rockchucker 'claim to fame' and their patent 9scine expired).
before that all presses where simple levers with less fixed mechanical advantage.
Kingmt, you don't need camover. You need to set your dies right. I can't believe you're confusing this issue.
Take your press. Set it to TDC, or if your press doesn't cam over, then set it all the way up. Screw your die all the way down till it touches the shell plate. Now size a case. Feels good, right? Press goes all the way up. Nope. Take a look from the side. Unless you have a very rigid press, you'll see a gap between the die and shellholder.
Now follow the instructions and set your die up the same way. But screw the die down an additional quarter turn. Size your case. Look to make sure the shellholder and die are touching. This works with or without cam over, the exact same way. Without cam over, you don't need a torque wrench. When the die and shellholder touch, it doesn't matter what the torque is. The leftover torque will flex the press, it won't oversize your case. You do not need cam over for your rifles. No one needs cam over, unless they physically don't have the muscle to get the case to size without it.
Ok, fine. You already understand this, right? Then why are you clouding the issue by saying that without cam over, your dies don't work?
I don't get it. Is there some special terminology among reloaders where cam over no longer describes the linkage system of a press, but instead describes how you set your die? Can someone please enlighten me? I'm starting to think reloaders are secretly obfuscating their terminology in order to give newbies a hard time.
If we're not talking about the same thing, no wonder this thread looks like total BS. To me, cam over describes the linkage system of a press that goes past TDC, like a vice grip. That is all. To everyone else, please add your definitions, so that your posts makes sense.
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Hopkins
Member
It's hard enough to get a forged receiver much less a press. I have a 30 ton hydraulic bearing press and I think I'll just do my FL resizing with it.
243winxb
Member
RCBS-Steel Dies-Cam Over
" To ensure all play is removed from the press leverage system."
Its so simple, follow instructions.
" To ensure all play is removed from the press leverage system."
Its so simple, follow instructions. “You would not see three pages and fifty some postings at http://www.accurateshooter.com/ talking about "cam over" when concentric ammo means accuracy”
You are correct, you will find 16 pages of mindless insults and insults through innuendo, the person asking the question furnished all the answers, he knew the answers the forum would give. Through all their efforts they learned they were not allowed to disagree.
F. Guffey
You are correct, you will find 16 pages of mindless insults and insults through innuendo, the person asking the question furnished all the answers, he knew the answers the forum would give. Through all their efforts they learned they were not allowed to disagree.
F. Guffey
oldreloader
Member
I use both a Rockchucker (camover) and a Classic Turret (no camover). They both make great ammo. The difference is in the "feel" of the lever and only affects me not the ammo. JMO.
bigedp51
member
You mean the people at http://www.accurateshooter.com/ didn't agree with the methods you posted fguffey.
Could it be that more than a few people don't believe in your shimming methods that bind the base of the case in the shell holder when you jamb shims in it.
I wonder why RCBS told me to shorten my shell holder and didn't tell me to cram shims in the bottom of the shell holder?
And resizing dies are adjustable and move up and down for a reason.
Your NOT going to push the shoulder back on every cartridge or have the die contact the shell holder and push the shoulder back 1/8 of an inch. Sometimes reloading isn't a "contact" sport.
James2
Member
From this discussion I have learned:
That we all have an opinion and many are not afraid to share it.
That some on this forum will agree with me about "Cam Over".
From my many years of reloading I have learned that:
"Cam Over" has nothing at all to do with properly sizing your cases.
That properly adjusting the die in the press has everything to do with sizing your cases.
That said, a word to the newcomers to the game. When you hear the words "Cam Over" take it with a grain of salt and remember to adjust the die correctly. Whether or not you want play with the cam over thing is up to you, but it really doesn't matter. You decide.
Now will the moderator please lock this thread?
Thanks to all for your participation.
That we all have an opinion and many are not afraid to share it.
That some on this forum will agree with me about "Cam Over".
From my many years of reloading I have learned that:
"Cam Over" has nothing at all to do with properly sizing your cases.
That properly adjusting the die in the press has everything to do with sizing your cases.
That said, a word to the newcomers to the game. When you hear the words "Cam Over" take it with a grain of salt and remember to adjust the die correctly. Whether or not you want play with the cam over thing is up to you, but it really doesn't matter. You decide.
Now will the moderator please lock this thread?
Thanks to all for your participation.
918, what do you mean by this? Can you please tell me how I have set up my press to cam over, when it can't cam over?
Is this "cam over" talk really just an inside joke of some sort? Does "cam over" mean anything you want it to, kinda like when the little blue people use the word "smurfy?"
Please don't lock this thread. Everyone is being civil, and most of us are having fun.
Maybe I can even learn what cam over IS. Seriously. What is cam over?
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I agree there is no need to lock the thread but I don't agree everyone is being civil but maybe they will grow up soon.Please don't lock this thread. Everyone is being civil, and most of us are having fun.
Gloob
I know how to set my dies up. Cam over means the same thing if the case is in the die or not. Maybe where we are having confusion is when we are using the term. I set my dies up to cause the press to cam over when there is no case in the shell holder. If I had a .002" gap between the shell holder & the die they would not fit my chambers. Maybe your right about me being to weak because I tried some 243 Win cases on my Pro1000 & the didn't fit my chamber. I got the bolt to close on the same cases with a lot of force in my sons then they fit my chamber. That has been the only rifle cases I have tried on the Pro1000. 223Rem may be different.
You adjust the amount of sizing by adjusting the die. One learns this on day one when they read their shiny new manual.
The LNL "cams over". After that if you keep pushing down on the handle the ram never moves any more (Neither up nor down), you just stress the mount and the bench. You push the handle down and when the ram reaches TDC (for you motor buffs) it only takes a slight effort to finish the movement on the linkage, because at this point it is no longer pushing the ram up, or down. The ram does not come back down any at this point. It only moves back down when the handle is pulled back up.
"Cams over" may not be the right term, but it has always been described as such in load books.
The LNL "cams over". After that if you keep pushing down on the handle the ram never moves any more (Neither up nor down), you just stress the mount and the bench. You push the handle down and when the ram reaches TDC (for you motor buffs) it only takes a slight effort to finish the movement on the linkage, because at this point it is no longer pushing the ram up, or down. The ram does not come back down any at this point. It only moves back down when the handle is pulled back up.
"Cams over" may not be the right term, but it has always been described as such in load books.
biged
If you put a shim under the case all you are doing is raising the deck. No one said to drive a wedge in it. There is no way you are going to shove a case in that far without centering it. Now if the expander is canted that is a different story.
I think that fguffy goes through a lot of trouble I don't need to in my reloading & disregard a lot of it but that doesn't mean he is wrong. I have never read anything he has posted that was wrong. I have read a lot of other misinformation or close enough to work but not right on this form but he is right on everything that I have read.
If you put a shim under the case all you are doing is raising the deck. No one said to drive a wedge in it. There is no way you are going to shove a case in that far without centering it. Now if the expander is canted that is a different story.
I think that fguffy goes through a lot of trouble I don't need to in my reloading & disregard a lot of it but that doesn't mean he is wrong. I have never read anything he has posted that was wrong. I have read a lot of other misinformation or close enough to work but not right on this form but he is right on everything that I have read.
Ding. Here's one mystery solved. 20 people here all talking about cam over, and no one agrees what it is. Some are talking about it as a way to set up a die, assuming the press in question has it. Others are using the term to describe how the press linkage works, and realize that not all presses do it at all.
I dunno of any Lee press that cams over, and I'm pretty sure they have way more market share than 1%.
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Any "O" type press has the ability to cam over due to the nature of the linkage. The best way to describe it is like vice grip locking pliers. That is what you feel in the linkage when the press cams over, and that is induced by screwing the die more than necessary to touch the shell holder with the ram all the way up and no case inside.
918, now I at least understand your definition of cam over. Thanks for clarifying.
I don't know where you get your information from. AFAIK, not all O-ring presses have the ability to cam over. I think someone here stated that RCBS patented the cam over system, and the Rock Chucker was the first press that had this feature. There were a lot of presses made before the Rock Chucker than didn't cam over. And since then, a lot of presses continued to be made that don't cam over. Unless I'm mistaken, my Breechlock Challenger O-ring press does not have the ability to cam over.
To confound things further, the description on Midway says it has a linkage designed to prevent cam over.
I don't know where you get your information from. AFAIK, not all O-ring presses have the ability to cam over. I think someone here stated that RCBS patented the cam over system, and the Rock Chucker was the first press that had this feature. There were a lot of presses made before the Rock Chucker than didn't cam over. And since then, a lot of presses continued to be made that don't cam over. Unless I'm mistaken, my Breechlock Challenger O-ring press does not have the ability to cam over.
To confound things further, the description on Midway says it has a linkage designed to prevent cam over.
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