What's the deal with bottle-necked cartridges?

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Alan Fud

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In recent memory ...
  • SIG introduced the .357SIG which basicly has a 9mm top and a .40S&W bottom. Why is this round better than the .40S&W? (both the .357SIG and the .40S&W take up the same space in a magazine)
  • NAA introduced the .32NAA which basicly has a .32ACP top and a .380ACP bottom. Why is this round better than a .380ACP? (both the .32NAA and the .380ACP take up the same space in a magazine)
  • Cor-Bon came out with the .400Cor-bon which basicly has a .40S&W top and a .45ACP bottom. Why is this round better than the .45ACP? (both the .400Cor-Bon and the .45ACP take up the same space in a magazine)
  • Now NAA introduced the .25NAA which basicly has a .25ACP top and a .32ACP bottom. Why is this round better than a .32ACP? (both the .25NAA and the .32ACP take up the same space in a magazine)
Other than possible more reliable feeding, what is the advantage of these bottle-necked cartridges over the rounds that they were 'cut-down' from?
 
Advantage

Velocity.

Higher velocity flattens trajectory and increases bullet impact energy.
More powder can be stuffed in a .357 Sig case than in a 9mm. A lighter
bullet can be used in the Sig case at higher velocity than a .40 caliber.

There are two schools of thought on this matter. One is that a heavy
large caliber bullet at moderate velocity incapacitates better than a light
fast one. The other goes in direct opposition. Flip a coin.

If a light, frangible bullet is driven so fast that it blows up on impact, it can't
penetrate to the vitals. Load a 125-grain .357 diameter bullet to top velocity in a .35 Remington case and shoot a deer in the brisket to see it happen.

In contrast, load a 200-grain .358 diameter bullet in a .357 magnum case,
and the bullet will pencil through without expanding or creating much
shock. These are extremes, but the point is that there is a limit as to
how far we can go in either direction.

Bear in mind that heavy and slow works about the same every time, while
light and fast may not. Have a look at the photos of the wounds created
in the War of Northern Aggression from 1861 until 1865:p
The 490-grain minie' balls shattered arms, legs and lives from a muzzle velocity of some 960 fps...clear out to 300 yards and beyond.

The 6.5 Jap was a high-velocity round that often left the victim unaware
that he had even been hit until he either bled out or somebody told him
that he was leaking.

Food fer thinkin'...

Tuner
 
It seems to me that the cartriges of the bottle-necked variety have higher operating pressures, more energy, and the long range accuracy certainly doesn't pay any penalty that I'm aware of...
They also have the multi-caliber appeal of one gun capable of shooting two or three calibers.
Also, they somewhat extend the range of bullet weights available for the gun you have two calibers in.
You can never have too many choices.
 
Note that the boring ol' straight-walled 10mm has more power than any of the above, including .400 Cor-Bon. :D
 
I've handloaded the .400 Corbon - it was an interesting excercise - just be DAMNED careful you get the bullets tight enough in the case. It's much harder to prevent bullet setback in feeding, which equals skyrocketing pressures and Kb's!

What I found nice with the .400 CB was that you could either load it hot, and get 10mm style performance, or else load a 135 gr at subsonic levels, and make a .38 special out off it. This is a pretty nice way to introduce a new shooter to a 1911, without the cost of a whole new pistol, or even top end & gunsmithing.

Sean is right, the 10mm is a superior defensive round, a 10 shot, reliable .357 magnum. I get 1350 fps with 155's, out of my Delta.

Someday I will get a CZ52 in 7.62 Mauser, and I'd enjoy playing around with a .30 Luger in a BHP, or 1911, but these are for hunting or target use. I will stick to the 9mm, .38 Super, 9x23, 10mm, or .45 ACP for "serious social purposes"
 
Ya know, I was just thinking today....I wonder what a .500 S&W necked to .30 cal would do?

:evil:
 
Here's my quick do's and don'ts for the .400 CB:

1. The factory ammo is hot, though reliable. Use ONLY cases with small primers. Some of the early ammo had large primers, and they would usually pierce when fired in a regular .45 ACP 1911.

2. IF you handload, take out the case expander plug and turn it down to .394" or smaller, to increase case neck tension.

3. Size cases, with the smaller expander. Throw them back in the tumbler, to ensure removal of all lube off the inside of the case necks. check for tumbler media in flash holes before seating primers.

4. after seating bullets, taper crimp the living beheejus out of the case mouth. Where safe, cycle a few rounds by hand, checking overall length before and after, to make sure the bullets aren't seating deeper while cycling.

5. Factory ammo avoids these headaches by using bullets with channellures. I've never found any 10mm bullets with a provision for the same - if you can find any, you won't have to be as paranoid about bullet setback in feeding.

6. Cor-bon gives handloading data on their website. For light loads with 135 grain jacketed bullets, I used 8 gr of AA#5. I didn't chrono them, but they are very mild and shot well. This load is a really nice way to throttle back a .45 cal 1911, so the recoil is better for new shooters.

******

Hope this is helpful!
 
7.62X25 Tok

A close cousen of the parent cartridge of the venerable 9mm Parabellum. This 50 year old cartridge will penetrate level three soft body armor. :what:

You all remember the shoot out in LA, where heavly armed bad guys wearing body armor gave the LAPD such a bad time until a civalian gun shop donated evil assault rifles and AP ammo to defeat them. This got me thinking. This is the new wave in armed gangpunk tactics. Surely, the wave of citizens with newly gotten CCW's and brand new Sig's, Glocks, etc have not been lost on these low lifes. :fire:
I want something that will stop these creatin!!!!!! Hence, the CZ-52 with it's BOTTLE NECKED cartridge!!
450 foot-pounds of muzzle energy and 1400+ fps will give me the edge in protecting my family against the all to common home invaders we have the unfortunate occasion to read about these days!! :cool:

The bottle necked cartridges have their uses!!!
 
This 50 year old cartridge will penetrate level three soft body armor.....

I want something that will stop these creatin!!!!!!
Click to expand...

If you are facing criminals with body armor, you will have more problems than just penetrating the armor...
 
Yeah, that may be true, but any advantage I can muster is a good thing!!
There already have been reports of gangpunks with B.A. attacking MCSO officers in the papers here in Maracopa county AZ. I have it on good authority that Sherriff Joe has an open contract out on his life, sponsered by the Crip gang. AZ is a CCW state. I may have not been a Boy Scout, but I want to be prepared to the best of my ability!!!!! My CZ 52 just got broken in today. I have 500 rounds of mil surplus AP Bulgarian ammo. There also is a strong Crip presence in my town. I want to be as ready as I can!! These goblins prey on us civilians too, you know!!
 
In the words of G. Gordon Liddy . . .

"Headshots, people, headshots." :D

While I suspect I'll never be confronted by a criminal wearing body armor (these dudes can't get it together to hold down a job, I don't see them with the planning skills to armor up before coming to pester little old me (although they certainly might for various forms of internecine warfare in which they might engage).

I do like my Tokarev, though. One of the two funnest-shooting guns I own (the other being a post-war M&P 5"). I can't wait until AIM gets in the caseloads of 7.62x25 that they have coming.
 
While I believe it is a good idea to have the tools to handle a situation like some live in (badguys/gangmembers in body armor, and in general), I wonder if the best tool isn't experience and ability rather than a weapon-type.

A good, concealed sidearm will do a lot to get you out of a bad situation, but that only matters if you can present it in good time. From draw to first shot, can you beat the timer set on .75 seconds?

Can you do this repeatedly and keep all shots inside a pie plate at -10yd?
 
Isn't it amazing how things change? Now bottleneck cartridges "feed more reliably. Back in the 50's & 60's it was "Bottleneck cartridges will not feed reliably in semiautomatic handguns" What happened?
 
Isn't it amazing how things change? Now bottleneck cartridges "feed more reliably. Back in the 50's & 60's it was "Bottleneck cartridges will not feed reliably in semiautomatic handguns" What happened?
Click to expand...

Funny how things keeping switching back and forth like that. I'm waiting for beer, bread, butter and red meat to be health food.

Bullet setback is a serious issue in bottleneck cases. I would use the 357 SIG, if I didn't think one time bullet setback would destroy the gun (that, and it is the loadest ^%*&$%$ auto I have ever heard). Getting the magazine just right is another. It seems that the greater the ratio of case diameter to lenght, the better the feeding is. I think a 30 Luger or 30 Mauser would be a fine fun gun in a 1911 or HP. I still may do that some day.



David
 
Bullet setback is a serious issue in bottleneck cases.
Click to expand...
WHAT? I'm confused here. You can crip bottleneck cartridges and you can't straight cases. How is a bottleneck any more prone to bullet setback than a straight case? If anything, it's better because a setback bottleneck bullet takes less of the volume of a case than does a straight case. Beyond that, I don't think it's a common problem in either case.
 
No, they're right about that. I had about 3 .357 Sig cartridges demonstrate enough bullet set-back to eyeball in the slightly more than 2k rounds I ran through my Glock 33. With the pressures that cartridge is running, I very carefully discared them. I understand various ammo makers got on the problem and tightened up the case mouths - don't know if it worked.

Doesn't seem to be a problem with the Tok, though: those Sovs dinged those case mouths deep into the bullet, three dings at 120 degrees' separation. You see the same sort of thing on 5.56 ammo.

Now, I don't care what they said in the '50s (they got other stuff wrong, too - just ask African-Americans) . . . bottlenecks feed like a dream. And, speaking as someone who lost 1/5 of his body weight (taking me to where I should be) on butter and red meat last year, 1*, I think there might be a fair number of people who would call that health food! :D
 
Here's what happens with bottleneck cases - the base of the seated bullet, in most cases is below the level of the shoulder, hanging the space inside the cartridge. You only have neck tension, and the crimp at the case mouth to ensure the bullet isn't pushed back into the case.

On straight walled cases, the bullet will have more contact area with the inside of the case. Also, the case is usually sized smaller than the bullet diameter, so the bullet more or less forms a step as it is seated. This step also serves to help prevent setback.

Look at factory Federal Hydra-Shoks - they actually roll a crimp behind the bullet, to help assure it won't get pushed back too deep in feeding.

One of my pet peeves about reloading die makers is that they always leave the case expanders too big - usually just .001 or .002" smaller than the bullet. This makes the bullet too loose in the case, regardless of how hard you crimp it. I suspect that's a common reason why reloads get a bad reputation for blowups. I have modified every handgun expander die I own, for that reason. It's also been proven that tight bullet fit = better accuracy and less velocity variation, when you have both tight fit and a firm crimp.
 
Just got in from shooting/cleaning guns, my list of shooters pretty well covers the overall range of calibers and I handload them all. The .30 Tokarev is one hard hitting bullet. I shoot it in a 1951 Russian and a 1964 Chinese, are accurate, smooth, and 100% reliable. When other shooters stop to see what you are sending down range its a good indicator
that its a powerful round. I shoot Norinco ammo, and there are some warnings about the Bulgarian ammo being too hot. Have been some CZ52s blow up with it.

rk
 
Minute of Pie Plate

Vaughn T said:

A good, concealed sidearm will do a lot to get you out of a bad situation, but that only matters if you can present it in good time. From draw to first shot, can you beat the timer set on .75 seconds?

Can you do this repeatedly and keep all shots inside a pie plate at -10yd?
-----------------------------

YES! YES!

Two hits in one second in the 8-ring will beat a perfect X that comes too late!

Kudos, Vaughn! Well said, lad!

Tuner

PS...If you think body armor might be a player, aim low
A slug or three to the groin or pelvis will drop your man like a bad habit.
Grazing fire works.
 
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