Marshall
Member
They all have to have something new to sell. Them marketing guys and product managers gotta do something.
What's the Deal with These Crazy Turkey Guns? Thumbholes? Pistol Grips?
- Thread starter Guyon
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chas08
Member
DITTO; There's nothinig wrong with PG's they're just not right for me. Errrr...except for my Bushmaster...that is.
Wineoceros
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Which makes a good point. Namely, that the notion of PGs on long guns as "gimmicky" is a pretty tough sell considering that they've been the standard for battle rifles for several decades now. Yes, yes...I know that a SG is not a BR, but the ergonomics and functionality provided by a PG is quite similar on the two platforms.
Ash
Member
It is the posh thing to do, otherwise explain why the thumbhole is $100 more expensive than the pistol grip? Folks may like it, and that is fine by me, but the $100 extra screams gimmick/fad.
Ash
Ash
OK let me spell it out for everyone who is having a hard time with this. Your trusty old 870 pheasant gun does not have a pistol grip stock. Gun manufacturers and retailers want you to buy MORE guns right?! Well VIOLA! the specialized turkey gun!! Its all about more sales folks! Maybe its better ergonomically for some people, maybe not, but the reason for their existence is to generate more sales...... plain and simple.
Wineoceros
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False premise. Which guns are you referring to as "the" thumbhole and pistol grip? The two Mossberg 835 variants are priced exactly the same. Are you assuming that a price difference between two other guns must be solely due to the stocks?
Oh, please do instruct us.
I guess the idea of appealing to new shotgun purchasers (you do know that not everyone on the planet already owns one...right?) with a competatively advantaged product (or at least one keeping up with trends) never occured to you.
There's also the fact that your existing trusty 870 can already have a new stock easily and far more cheaply added to it (which I'm sure most people are able to figure out), thus eliminating the incentive to buy a whole new gun.
It absolutely is, at least for some.
That may be simple, but it certainly isn't plain, nor even a well-supported argument.
Ash
Member
Wine, relax. You like what you like. Fine. Don't get too worked up about this. However, take a look at the Remingtons posted. Here it is again. I am not lying.
And, it is about sales. You may like the product, but it isn't about some noble pursuit by Remington, Mossberg, or anyone else.
And, it is about sales. You may like the product, but it isn't about some noble pursuit by Remington, Mossberg, or anyone else.
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Wineoceros
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I'm quite relaxed, thanks.
Don't presume that I'm "worked up" about anything. I'm simply countering invalid and poorly-supported assertions. That's a big part of substantive discussion.
I've already seen the whole thing. Why not simply answer the question regarding which two guns you're comparing? I have to ask because there aren't any two in the ad that differ only in the stocks.
Who said you were lying?
Of course its about sales. All commercial endevors are about sales. That doesn't mean that the only (or even primary) purpose of these stocks is to get people to toss out their perfectly good existing guns and buy one of these new ones. That isn't even close to rational, and would be a losing investment by the manufacturers.
What is it with this insistence on putting words in people's mouths? Where did I say anything about any "noble pursuit" by anyone? If you're going to respond to me then I ask that you at least have the decency to not misrepresent what I've said.
Ash
Member
Never mind. I'm getting pretty tired of guys around here getting their panties in a wad. I'm out of this discussion.
Ash
Ash
Guyon
Member
Wineceros, you got us, man. We're all just dying to buy PG shotguns, but we're too durn cheap to do it. The only other alternative is to knock the PG grip in general and convince ourselves we don't need it.
Wineoceros
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Maybe if you were more honest and not so eager to misrepresent what others say you wouldn't have these problems.
Considering your refusal to even answer a simple question I'd say you were never really in a discussion.
See my response above. That's not even close to anything I've said here.
Seriously. If you can't be honest in a discussion, why even bother?
The increased interest in turkey hunting has definitely opened up some new niche markets for manufacturers. Some of the newly designed products are fantastic, others are a poor attempt to cash in on a new market.
If you don't believe the introduction of new items is an attempt to generate sales, then you sir are truly in the dark.
Also Wineceoceros, please remember this is The High Road. Please try to keep your posts civil.
If you don't believe the introduction of new items is an attempt to generate sales, then you sir are truly in the dark.
Also Wineceoceros, please remember this is The High Road. Please try to keep your posts civil.
Guyon
Member
Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/facetious
Seriously, if you take everything you read at face value, I don't know how you get by in the world.
Seriously, I was not writing seriously.
Wineoceros
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Maybe you should have read the comment in which I acknowledge that of course all new products and advertising are about generating sales.
My posts have been far more civil than what I've been responding to. Or are you suggesting that snarky comments and dishonestly misrepresenting someone's statements is "high road"?
By understanding that even sarcasm is intended to convey a kernel of truth.
Guyon
Member
Wineoceros, it's interesting how you want to impose here your ideas of what a "discussion" should look like.
Not every post is intended as an invitation to a formal point-by-point debate.
I second Ash's advice: relax a little. That goes for your conceptions of how bulletin board threads should proceed.
How would you know other posts are "snarky"? *gasp* Does this mean that you're reading into what people are writing? Could you possibly be guilty of misrepresentation yourself?
Seriously, if you can't take a little good-natured ribbing, you don't belong in the pool with the big kids.
Not every post is intended as an invitation to a formal point-by-point debate.
I second Ash's advice: relax a little. That goes for your conceptions of how bulletin board threads should proceed.
How would you know other posts are "snarky"? *gasp* Does this mean that you're reading into what people are writing? Could you possibly be guilty of misrepresentation yourself?
Seriously, if you can't take a little good-natured ribbing, you don't belong in the pool with the big kids.
Guyon
Member
Oh and seriously, I am out of this discussion now as well. It was a thread about shotguns. Wineoceros has derailed it into a thread about posting protocol. Seriously.
Wineoceros
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I'm not attempting to impose my ideas of anything on anyone. On the other hand, words have generally agreed upon meanings, and "discussion" is no different. Makig a claim and then, after realizing that it isn't accurate, refusing to answer a simple question about it most certainly doesn't qualify as any resonable definition of honest "discussion".
No, but when a point (or at least a claim) is made it is legitimate to question it. If you can't stand to have your points questioned then making them in a public discussion forum is a very strange practice.
What's even more interesting is your tacit approval (and even participation in) dishonest rhetorical tactics like strawman arguments. Why do you find them acceptable?
The presumption that you need to offer advice here is not warranted.
Since I've said nothing about how bulletin board threads should proceed I have to ask what you think those conceptions are?
Wineoceros
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Try reading my posts. That's what I was discussing.
That would be a lie. I was discussing the subject on its merits. You and Ash have opted to turn it into a personal pissing match, and had to resort to false statements to do so.
plumberroy
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Here is what I know : there has been no major improvement in 50 years. gun industry thrives on "New and Improved" since guns in there currant state are about as far as they can go gimmicks and flash are the way they go . true some will like or do better with one of these add ons they do nothing vastly better than guns of the 60's what the gun and ammo industry are really telling you is. buying all this high dollar stuff will make up for you not being a better hunter 'cuse me while I don my fire suit
Roy
Roy
Wineoceros
member
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- Feb 22, 2008
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No need for asbestos, but...
$319 (at BP...even less elsewhere) for a good pump shotgun is "high dollar stuff"?
Guyon
Member
Excuse me? I know I said I was out of it, but seriously, you need to refresh your own memory. Seriously.
Toss around your rhetorical terms all you'd like. Perhaps you'd like to look up red herrings and false authority?
Seriously, on some of these boards, I feel like I'm typing to frustrated high-school debate coaches. Seriously.I think you'd be happier in the Political subforum perhaps. Seriously.
I still think you're taking this all a little too seriously. Seriously.
Guyon
Member
Okay, now I'm done. Seriously.
I PM'ed Dave and asked him if he'd like to shut this one down. It's no longer serving any purpose except pissing competition.
Because of my use of "gimmick" and my questioning of design on his beloved PG shotgun, I believe Wineoceros had his panties in a wad from Post Numero Uno in this thread, and no amount of rhetorical posturing will convince me otherwise. I also have a suspicion he's the type that would argue with a Publisher's Clearing House Rep handing him $10 million dollar check. ("Waitasecond, you're not going to deposit that for me? Aren't the taxes going to kill me? Can I call your boss and see if you're legitimate? Don't I have to sign a release for you to be taping this?")
In other words, life's too short.
I PM'ed Dave and asked him if he'd like to shut this one down. It's no longer serving any purpose except pissing competition.
Because of my use of "gimmick" and my questioning of design on his beloved PG shotgun, I believe Wineoceros had his panties in a wad from Post Numero Uno in this thread, and no amount of rhetorical posturing will convince me otherwise. I also have a suspicion he's the type that would argue with a Publisher's Clearing House Rep handing him $10 million dollar check. ("Waitasecond, you're not going to deposit that for me? Aren't the taxes going to kill me? Can I call your boss and see if you're legitimate? Don't I have to sign a release for you to be taping this?")
In other words, life's too short.
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