ArchAngelCD
Member.
I wish these threads wouldn't always go south like they do. This is not a pissing contest people, c'mon now!
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What's the latest trend in 9mm self-defense ammo?
- Thread starter Trey Veston
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Trey Veston
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It appears that what bullets you use is a very personal and emotional decision...
FL-NC
Member
For me, the "trend" is whatever HP is available from Remington, Hornady, Winchester, or federal on sale.
Zerodefect
member
It's often down to what I can even get locally. Another reason I dropped 1911's for carry. HST, Speer, are popular. Winchester Ranger T is vaporware.
The solid copper rounds might be onto something. They're no doubt better at walls and doors. Not unlike copper rifle rounds. But I'm going to stick with tried and true HST until Lehigh can get some ammo on the shelves out here.
These arguments are nearly always lame. Parrots keyboarding gel tests from an unsubstantiated source. And sometimes gel doesn't tell the whole story.
Remember the 5.7x28mm from a p90? Designed for personal defense, security and such. With extremely limited liability for misses. It would barely even stick in gel, but we we're taking hogs left and right with it. Hogs that could tear limbs off an NFL offensive line. It was supposed to be a zippy 9mm, power wise. But people were comparing it to 5.56 and 308. It was amateur hour at it's best.
(some poetic license, deal with it)
The solid copper rounds might be onto something. They're no doubt better at walls and doors. Not unlike copper rifle rounds. But I'm going to stick with tried and true HST until Lehigh can get some ammo on the shelves out here.
These arguments are nearly always lame. Parrots keyboarding gel tests from an unsubstantiated source. And sometimes gel doesn't tell the whole story.
Remember the 5.7x28mm from a p90? Designed for personal defense, security and such. With extremely limited liability for misses. It would barely even stick in gel, but we we're taking hogs left and right with it. Hogs that could tear limbs off an NFL offensive line. It was supposed to be a zippy 9mm, power wise. But people were comparing it to 5.56 and 308. It was amateur hour at it's best.
(some poetic license, deal with it)
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Madcap_Magician
Member
It appears that what bullets you use is a very personal and emotional decision...
Frankly for a lot of people equipment selection is a very personal and emotional decision, that that's why so many of these threads go south. The equipment itself is rational, but the feeling of adequacy and security that it provides is entirely emotional, and whenever people encounter information that makes them think that maybe their equipment is insufficient, they react emotionally.
cheygriz
member
What bothers me most is the large number of folks that take anything written by their favorite "keyboard commando" in a gun magazine as gospel.
Most of those folks have better sights on their keyboards than on their weapons. (If they actually even own a weapon.)
Most of those folks have better sights on their keyboards than on their weapons. (If they actually even own a weapon.)
Winkman822
Member
I've been sticking with Federal HST 124 gr. Speer Gold Dot 124 gr. and I've been trying to shoot through the sizeable stock of Barnes Tac XPD that I have. My guns tend to shoot a little more to point of aim wit the heavier 124 gr. bullets.
Jeb Stuart
member
ARX PLUSP 9mm from LCR9mm
20% less recoil which I felt to be true
http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2016/05/ruger-arx-9mm-p-ammunition-test-and.html
20% less recoil which I felt to be true
http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2016/05/ruger-arx-9mm-p-ammunition-test-and.html
Currently 124 grain HST. It seems accurate and reliable. I hope the 50 round boxes don't go away for non-LE because I'm not sure I'm willing to buy them in the 20 round packs. Based on the Luckygunner tests there are several other good options, though. Golden Sabers seem to be among the more affordable of them. Paul Harrell's videos make me wonder if the standard white box stuff would be just as good.
Shawn Dodson
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You can poke your finger into a gelatin block and produce cracks. You use the same force to poke your finger into your stomach and it won't produce any permanent damage. You can tear the corner off a block of gelatin but you cannot tear flesh from your body using the same force. Properly prepared and calibrated ordnance gelatin provides the same shear force and inertial force resistance to bullet penetration as typical soft tissues however it is not as elastic.
The radial cracks produced in gelatin record the temporary cavity. Depending on the kinds of tissues located along the wound track the temporary cavity may or may not cause tissues to tear. Elastic tissues such as bowel, lung, muscle, and nerve can easily tolerate being stretched by the temporary cavity with little to no permanent damage. Inelastic tissues such as liver, kidney, pancreas, spleen and brain can be severely damaged by a large temporary cavity.
Almost 20 years ago I tested a similar bullet, the Devel Radially Dynamic bullet, which was a lightweight sintered copper bullet with similar ribs and flutes (it had five ribs and flutes). It produced a temporary cavity about 3-4 inches in diameter. (You can see my test report here - http://archive.is/kblvq ) The designer of the bullet, the late Charles Kelsey, hypothesized that the ribs would cut soft tissues as it penetrated and then the subsequent temporary cavity produced by the flutes would tear these cuts open to increase wound trauma. (Kelsey's inspiration for his Radially Dynamic bullet was the French THV armor piercing bullet, which has a reverse ogive.) In my test, using properly prepared and calibrated type 250A ordnance gelatin, any potential additional wound trauma was masked by the cracks produced by the temporary cavity. Therefore your skepticism about the limitations of gelatin tests involving a similar bullet is certainly warranted, and I apologize for not making clear that my comments were about the validity of gelatin tests in general.
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WVsig
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It’s all about shot placement not the ammo in the gun. Choose a modern design that feeds properly and train train train.
If you do you read part you can effectively nutralize a threat with ball ammo. The most important part is being able to score positive hits in the center of the chest or head in an area the size of a grapefruit. If you can’t do that on command from conceal with your carry gun the round you choose will not matter.
IMHO
If you do you read part you can effectively nutralize a threat with ball ammo. The most important part is being able to score positive hits in the center of the chest or head in an area the size of a grapefruit. If you can’t do that on command from conceal with your carry gun the round you choose will not matter.
IMHO
MTMilitiaman
Member
Modern JHPs are all designed around the same test parameters, so no surprise, they all perform about the same. There are small differences for people to bicker and obsess about, but in the end, they are all studying the same questions for the same test, so they all have pretty much the same answers. Pick one and roll with it. Gold Dots and HSTs are the most available and probably the most proven, but that doesn't mean the Golden Saber or PDX, or any of the others, aren't legitimate choices. People just get so caught up in this stuff it is ridiculous. Someone isn't kicking your dog and calling your children ugly if they use a different bullet that you.
As far as trends, near as I can tell, it is a resurgence in the 147 gr. For years the heavyweight 9mms had a poor reputation but modern bullet technology has made these rounds a viable choice, and they now consistently rank among the best performing rounds available for the cartridge. And of course, there is the monolithic projectiles, whether you are discussing more proven examples, like the Barnes, or newer and more obscure brands like the ARX. I think most people are probably better advised to stick to options that are established and have some street cred, but I don't get too butt hurt about it either way, as long as I am allowed to make such decisions for myself.
As far as trends, near as I can tell, it is a resurgence in the 147 gr. For years the heavyweight 9mms had a poor reputation but modern bullet technology has made these rounds a viable choice, and they now consistently rank among the best performing rounds available for the cartridge. And of course, there is the monolithic projectiles, whether you are discussing more proven examples, like the Barnes, or newer and more obscure brands like the ARX. I think most people are probably better advised to stick to options that are established and have some street cred, but I don't get too butt hurt about it either way, as long as I am allowed to make such decisions for myself.
mrmike7189
Member
115/124/147.........I split the difference and chose to carry 124 grain . middle of the road, best of both?
Zaydok Allen
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Excellent info and I find your earlier test of s similar design interesting. Thanks for clarifying. I think we're on the same page.
Commo
Member
Rather than hijack this thread I have created a thread about a LE Joint Agency study that addresses many of the issues discussed here, and more. It is at
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...stics-test-for-defensive-handgun-ammo.844285/
Commo
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...stics-test-for-defensive-handgun-ammo.844285/
Commo
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Trey Veston
Member
Was working up some more loads to try out in the new G19 and finally received the Hornady XTP 147gr bullets that I have to order online. Beautiful looking bullets! Loaded them up with 3.5gr of Titegroup and 5.0gr of Ramshot Silhouette to see how they do. I also loaded up some 124gr RMR JHPs and was surprised by the stark difference in physical size. I like a heavier bullet, but I hope the gun prefers the RMRs due to the ready availability and lower cost...
cslinger
Member
That’s just crazy talk.
rskent
Member
Let us know how they work out. I use a bunch of Tight Group with 115 grain bullets. But I would think a slower powder might work better with 147 grain rounds. Don't know.
Not long ago someone loaded those for Ruger brand ammo line. They didn't seem that expensive, but too weired loking for me to buy. You could probably still find some of them red boxes on store shelves.
CopperFouling
Member
Federal has a 150-grain HST that was solid in Lucky Gunner's testing.
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Trey Veston
Member
Not very well... Worst group of the range trip at 6.5" at 25yds. Then again, just about everything wasn't doing so hot between my eyes, dark shooting bench, and not much time to get everything done.
Didn't get a chance to shoot multiple groups of the same load, except the factory Remington 115gr JHPs. Those did OK the first group at 2 3/4", then the next two groups of the same ammo opened up to 4 1/4" and 4 1/2"...
So I can't figure out what bullet weight this pistol likes. The two worst groups were with 147gr and 124gr. The two best groups were with 124gr and 115gr. But the third best group was with 147gr. ???
Birdhunter1
Member
I carry an XD9 service model 4" barrel. In 14 years with this pistol I have have tried many loads, I was on the wagon for 115 gr Corbon +P+ for a long time as they shot very fast and were fairly brutal on impact with things. Let me also add I have carried this pistol everyday about the last 8 years on the farm and it gets used, it is not legal to deer hunt with in IL and I don't use it for that, but it has dispatched many pests, varmints, attacking animals and other predators.
While the 115 Corbon's do hit hard they just do not shoot as accurately as I would like nor do they feed the greatest, but they are a hot load. They do feed but now and then I will get a hiccup where the large open nose catches on the feedramp. I've got several of them on a shelf.
115 Hornady Critical Defense. They feed very well and I have found they tend to be very uniform in speed on a chrono and they shot well enough for me. I'm just not sold on the plastic rubber tip being of any value, I get the idea but am not sold on the sales pitch of it. Which leads us to the 135 gr Hornady Critical Duty.... this stuff shoots well and hits hard. Mainly tested on fluid items like water jugs, buckets and the like. Over a chrono I keep getting error messages on this round that I do not get with others, I do not know why other than maybe it has more of a muzzle blast but for some reason this didn't read over my chronograph. I have whats left of these loaded in a mag with ....
135 Gr Federal HST.... very similar to the Hornady 135 Critical Duty it shoots well, hits hard and feeds well. I have not chrono'd it and have nothing to say bad about it.
But I like speed, and I like accuracy... so this took me back to a load I used to strictly carry a long time ago the 124 Gr Hornady XTP. Its nothing fancy, glamorous and doesn't have naked ladies advertising it but it is the best shooting bullet in this particular pistol and it flat out works well on the critters I have shot. I swear the bullet places where I want it, 32 yards on a racoon dead between its eyes at night with a partial two handed grip (one hand had a flashlight in it. Numerous raccoons running out of my chicken pen I shot on the run, at night. Coyotes inside of 30 yards, groundhogs in the yard, a few copperheads (one from the saddle of my horse). For me this bullet shoots well and performs on animals.
So there's my take on it all, I'm not a huge Hornady fan and aside from their SST shotgun slugs I have yet to find one of their bullets I wasn't satisfied with when I have hunted with them. One rifle I have I couldn't find an accurate enough bullet from Hornady to work and ended up with a Barnes TSX in it. The rest are all Hornady throwers and they do their jobs well.
While the 115 Corbon's do hit hard they just do not shoot as accurately as I would like nor do they feed the greatest, but they are a hot load. They do feed but now and then I will get a hiccup where the large open nose catches on the feedramp. I've got several of them on a shelf.
115 Hornady Critical Defense. They feed very well and I have found they tend to be very uniform in speed on a chrono and they shot well enough for me. I'm just not sold on the plastic rubber tip being of any value, I get the idea but am not sold on the sales pitch of it. Which leads us to the 135 gr Hornady Critical Duty.... this stuff shoots well and hits hard. Mainly tested on fluid items like water jugs, buckets and the like. Over a chrono I keep getting error messages on this round that I do not get with others, I do not know why other than maybe it has more of a muzzle blast but for some reason this didn't read over my chronograph. I have whats left of these loaded in a mag with ....
135 Gr Federal HST.... very similar to the Hornady 135 Critical Duty it shoots well, hits hard and feeds well. I have not chrono'd it and have nothing to say bad about it.
But I like speed, and I like accuracy... so this took me back to a load I used to strictly carry a long time ago the 124 Gr Hornady XTP. Its nothing fancy, glamorous and doesn't have naked ladies advertising it but it is the best shooting bullet in this particular pistol and it flat out works well on the critters I have shot. I swear the bullet places where I want it, 32 yards on a racoon dead between its eyes at night with a partial two handed grip (one hand had a flashlight in it. Numerous raccoons running out of my chicken pen I shot on the run, at night. Coyotes inside of 30 yards, groundhogs in the yard, a few copperheads (one from the saddle of my horse). For me this bullet shoots well and performs on animals.
So there's my take on it all, I'm not a huge Hornady fan and aside from their SST shotgun slugs I have yet to find one of their bullets I wasn't satisfied with when I have hunted with them. One rifle I have I couldn't find an accurate enough bullet from Hornady to work and ended up with a Barnes TSX in it. The rest are all Hornady throwers and they do their jobs well.
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