freakaccident
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What's the smallest pistol you'd trust?
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freakaccident
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I know this is a couple of months from the last post but I thought I needed to comment.
I was attacked in my home several years ago and survived because of a low caliber round. Barely. Read on.
My room mate at the time had some friends over. We were all drinking and having a good time. I recall that we were watching a cartoon movie. I can't recall the name but I remember one line that was "America Kick A$$".
I went into my bedroom to use the restroom and for some reason I looked under my pillow to see if my .40 IMI was still there. It was not.
When I returned to the living room I questioned my room mate's guests and one of them attacked me. He threw me from the living room onto the floor in the kitchen. He continued to beat me and threw me up against the sliding glass door in the kitchen.
I had a Ruger 10/22 with a large heavy barrel installed, between the refrigerator and the wall near the sliding glass door. I grabbed the rifle and smacked him over the head with the barrel.
My attacker, with head bleeding, came at me more furious than before. He tried to take the rifle from me and in the process shot one round which struck me on the top of the foot.
After the shot he stumbled backwards and then lunged at me again. At this point the rifle was facing in his direction. As he attempted to disarm me again he was struck in the forearm by one .22 LR round which shattered and the fragments struck his chest.
At this point he continued attacking me. After a few fists to my face he stopped. He had realized that he was bleeding all over my kitchen.
He was hauled off in an ambulance and I was charged with criminal recklessness. The police picked my house apart looking for my IMI .40 and never found it. They took the Ruger and a Kahr I had in the lockbox in my truck.
$6000 and a year or so later I won my case. Self defense.
This guy had a 6 page rap sheet with kidnapping, assault, weapons charges, and drug charges. He was also seen two days after his injuries at a bar getting drunk. I didn't even have a speeding ticket.
I found the .40 a couple weeks later in a utensil pot on the kitchen counter. He must have ditched it there after he was injured.
Yes I was a dumb ass for leaving my pistol under my pillow. No reason to point out my mistakes. I know my faults in this.
On the subject though, in my personal opinion carrying a .22 for protection is a HORRIBLE idea. IF you don't hit your mark you will be sorry. My experience could have turned out much worse. Stopping power is necessary and you can not piss off an attacker with a .22 unless you shoot them in the eye.
I currently carry a S&W Airweight .38 with Corbon +P loaded. I have taken classes and feel much more confident if the situation were to arise again.
Hopefully some of you will learn something from my experience.
Thanks
I was attacked in my home several years ago and survived because of a low caliber round. Barely. Read on.
My room mate at the time had some friends over. We were all drinking and having a good time. I recall that we were watching a cartoon movie. I can't recall the name but I remember one line that was "America Kick A$$".
I went into my bedroom to use the restroom and for some reason I looked under my pillow to see if my .40 IMI was still there. It was not.
When I returned to the living room I questioned my room mate's guests and one of them attacked me. He threw me from the living room onto the floor in the kitchen. He continued to beat me and threw me up against the sliding glass door in the kitchen.
I had a Ruger 10/22 with a large heavy barrel installed, between the refrigerator and the wall near the sliding glass door. I grabbed the rifle and smacked him over the head with the barrel.
My attacker, with head bleeding, came at me more furious than before. He tried to take the rifle from me and in the process shot one round which struck me on the top of the foot.
After the shot he stumbled backwards and then lunged at me again. At this point the rifle was facing in his direction. As he attempted to disarm me again he was struck in the forearm by one .22 LR round which shattered and the fragments struck his chest.
At this point he continued attacking me. After a few fists to my face he stopped. He had realized that he was bleeding all over my kitchen.
He was hauled off in an ambulance and I was charged with criminal recklessness. The police picked my house apart looking for my IMI .40 and never found it. They took the Ruger and a Kahr I had in the lockbox in my truck.
$6000 and a year or so later I won my case. Self defense.
This guy had a 6 page rap sheet with kidnapping, assault, weapons charges, and drug charges. He was also seen two days after his injuries at a bar getting drunk. I didn't even have a speeding ticket.
I found the .40 a couple weeks later in a utensil pot on the kitchen counter. He must have ditched it there after he was injured.
Yes I was a dumb ass for leaving my pistol under my pillow. No reason to point out my mistakes. I know my faults in this.
On the subject though, in my personal opinion carrying a .22 for protection is a HORRIBLE idea. IF you don't hit your mark you will be sorry. My experience could have turned out much worse. Stopping power is necessary and you can not piss off an attacker with a .22 unless you shoot them in the eye.
I currently carry a S&W Airweight .38 with Corbon +P loaded. I have taken classes and feel much more confident if the situation were to arise again.
Hopefully some of you will learn something from my experience.
Thanks
MikeNice
Member
For the guys saying they trust a .22, I have a story.
I was in the hospital ER. I was waiting for my turn when a guy walked in leaking blood on the floor. It turns out he had been shot "twice" in the stomach with a .22. They rushed him to the back. Two hours later I was in a room in back when I heard two doctors talking. The guy had died in surgery. He thought he had been shot twice but had been shot six times.
The point became real clear to me. You can shoot a guy six times with a .22 and he won't even realize it. To make matters worse he could very well live another 90 minutes. That means he will have plenty of time to keep attacking.
For me a .380 or .38spl is the absolute minimum for self protection. Personally I lean more towards a 3"+ barrel and 9mm 124gr +P as the minimum for comfort.
I was in the hospital ER. I was waiting for my turn when a guy walked in leaking blood on the floor. It turns out he had been shot "twice" in the stomach with a .22. They rushed him to the back. Two hours later I was in a room in back when I heard two doctors talking. The guy had died in surgery. He thought he had been shot twice but had been shot six times.
The point became real clear to me. You can shoot a guy six times with a .22 and he won't even realize it. To make matters worse he could very well live another 90 minutes. That means he will have plenty of time to keep attacking.
For me a .380 or .38spl is the absolute minimum for self protection. Personally I lean more towards a 3"+ barrel and 9mm 124gr +P as the minimum for comfort.
Welding Rod
Member
9mm minimum.
And I prefer "service" sized guns. I am skeptical of compacts of any make.
And I prefer "service" sized guns. I am skeptical of compacts of any make.
gun guy
Member
the smallest gun i have is a 2 shot davis derringer in 22 wrm. with the winchester fmj it pushes a 40gr tc at 1,000 fps 89ft/lbs of muzzle energy. i would trust it, at the muzzle anyways. across the card table it starts to get really iffy. It conceals very nicely in my cowboy rig, right underneath a ruger blackhawk 41 magnum, that would most likely be my first choice.
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valorius
member
I used to carry a .32acp 11shooter, but i grew leery of that because of rimlock issues that i was experiencing, and because of other issues with the gun.
I upgraded to an LCP using Corbon DPX+P. I think that should be ok for any situation not requiring a rifle. When i know ill be going to a real bad neighborhood, i carry my HK P7 9mm with 100gr Corbon Powrball+P loaded.
I upgraded to an LCP using Corbon DPX+P. I think that should be ok for any situation not requiring a rifle. When i know ill be going to a real bad neighborhood, i carry my HK P7 9mm with 100gr Corbon Powrball+P loaded.
Are you trying to say that a .38 Special+P round has some kind of "stopping power" that would have stopped your determined assailant with a shot to the arm, or any other shot that doesn't hit the mark? I seriously doubt that there is any such thing with regard to handgun calibers.
That doesn't surprise me one bit, as there are plenty of stories about people who absorbed multiple rounds from 9mm and larger calibers, and kept right on coming--some of them even survived, unlike the guy in your example. Just recently, one guy in Harlem was hit 21 times (most, if not all, of the rounds were 124 grain 9mm+P Gold Dot JHPs used by the NYPD), and was still alert and talkative when he arrived at the hospital (he has survived thus far).
And then there's the often repeated (especially during LE training) story of South Carolina Highway Patrolman Mark Coates, who put 5 out of his 6 .357 Magnum rounds into a 325 lb bad guy (center of mass), who was then able to return fire with a single (although he had fired one earlier) .22 LR round from a derringer that went through a gap in the side of Coates' body armor and pierced his aorta, dropping him quickly and killing him on the spot shortly afterward. The perp survived, barely affected by his wounds. As you can see from this example, any caliber can have "stopping power" with--and ONLY with--effective shot placement.
Although there's nothing wrong with these calibers, ironically I feel more comfortable with .40 S&W or larger.
I don't think that I'm contradicting myself here, because I'm more aware than most of how minor of an advantage it is to use a larger caliber. I simply choose to shoot the largest that I can handle well, that's all (I can shoot .45 ACP just fine, but it costs more and I have to choose between capacity and trigger reach for smaller members of my family, so I had to draw the line somewhere).
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valorius
member
The jump in performance going from .32 to .380 with a modern round like Corbon DPX+P is pretty darned big. The jump from .380 to 9mm, especially 9mm+P+, is pretty big too.
All jumps thereafter show minimal, if any, gains until you get to the big ole' .45 rounds.
All jumps thereafter show minimal, if any, gains until you get to the big ole' .45 rounds.
doc2rn
Member
Probably my new S&W 452
Beach Nut
Member
OK, I'll admit it, during the summer months I carry a S&W Model 30-1
.32 Long on occasion. I like it because nothing fits in your front pocket
with a holster like a J Frame. Otherwise, .380 is the smallest I will go as
far as caliber and size (Ruger LCP).
.32 Long on occasion. I like it because nothing fits in your front pocket
with a holster like a J Frame. Otherwise, .380 is the smallest I will go as
far as caliber and size (Ruger LCP).
Ledgehammer
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WellI hate to be the bearer of bad news but - my best friend was shot with a .380 to the gut from about 5ft away. It didn't put him down at all. We walked all the way to my house to call 911 since this was before cell phones. This was about a half mile - he wouldn't even sit down until I forced him. The bullet went in and out. It really messed him up inside He had to be life flighted to the hospital, but it didn't immediately incapacitate him at all. We were 15 at the time.
We were robbed on the way home from school. He wouldn't give them anything so they shot him and took off. They were caught and I think the guy did about 3.5 years for aggravated assault and some weapons charge not sure exactly.
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MikeNice
Member
Ledge read post #283. That kind of thing can happen with any caliber. However, It is less likely with good shot placement.
No handgun is promised to stop every atacker every time. Not even a rifle is promised to stop a determined foe in one shot every time.
When my grandpa was in the VA he shared a room with a guy that served in Korea. The guy that served in Korea had been shot twice by a 7.7mm Japanese surplus rifle. He was shot once and kept fighting. The second shot broke his right arm. That was the shot that caused him to stop fighting. Not because it hit some major body part, but because the pain was too great.
Then you can look at Henry Lincoln Johnson. He served as one of the "Harlem Hell Fighters" in WWI. He was wounded by a grenade, stabbed, and shot twice in the chest at close range with a revolver. When they tried to take the other guy on guard duty with him as a prisoneer he rushed the Germans. He used his hand grenades and rifle untill the rifle jammed. Then he started bashing skulls with the rifle untill it broke. He then pulled out his 12" Bolo knife and continued hacking and slashing Germans.
When it was all said and done Johnson was wounded 21 times and survived. However, he killed 4 germans, critically wounded 12, and sent the rest of the attackers running for their life. The next morning they found Henry, and the guy he went to save, laying in their fox hole singing jazz songs
Nothing is promised to do the trick the first time every time.
No handgun is promised to stop every atacker every time. Not even a rifle is promised to stop a determined foe in one shot every time.
When my grandpa was in the VA he shared a room with a guy that served in Korea. The guy that served in Korea had been shot twice by a 7.7mm Japanese surplus rifle. He was shot once and kept fighting. The second shot broke his right arm. That was the shot that caused him to stop fighting. Not because it hit some major body part, but because the pain was too great.
Then you can look at Henry Lincoln Johnson. He served as one of the "Harlem Hell Fighters" in WWI. He was wounded by a grenade, stabbed, and shot twice in the chest at close range with a revolver. When they tried to take the other guy on guard duty with him as a prisoneer he rushed the Germans. He used his hand grenades and rifle untill the rifle jammed. Then he started bashing skulls with the rifle untill it broke. He then pulled out his 12" Bolo knife and continued hacking and slashing Germans.
When it was all said and done Johnson was wounded 21 times and survived. However, he killed 4 germans, critically wounded 12, and sent the rest of the attackers running for their life. The next morning they found Henry, and the guy he went to save, laying in their fox hole singing jazz songs
Nothing is promised to do the trick the first time every time.
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And why is that? Make your case.
Why?
Eh, in my opinion, there's hardly any jump between 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP at all, as they can all penetrate well enough while expanding a fair amount, and there's only a small fraction of an inch difference between them.
Ledgehammer
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hilarious!
On a side note my wife won't carry anything larger than a .22. She has shot a .38 special and my old .380 and didn't like either. I think 38 snub really turned her off and now she thinks anything over .22 will snap like that. She's a good shot too. How do I get her to move up in caliber. It has to be done right or she will get stubborn on me.
valorius
member
If you needed verification that a .35 cal FMJ to the gut is not a fight stopping wound, you have it here. I am curious, had the shot been an " or two right or left, and severed his spine, would you be saying how great a stopper .380 is?
The devil is always in the details.
Manco:
Ammo selection. There is no round in .32acp that shows anything near the performance of a round like .380 corbon DPX+P in tests. I've seen 3 tests of it, and the expansion has been between .645"avg-.70+" avg in all of them. Penetration has been in the 9"-11" avg range, depending on the test.
Buffalo Bore flat nose is the one load in .32 acp i really liked, but it rimlocked on me even with KT mag spacers installed, several times. I don't trust it, so i couldn't use it. That means the only real choice in .32acp is FMJ.
So, .380 = much bigger hole (and a jagged bleeding hole at that thanks to the DPX cutting petals) with the right ammo while still getting 10" avg penetration. 10" is more than enough in a frontal shot, which as a CCW citizen, is by far the most likely shot i'll be taking. So, to me, the extra pen. of a .32acp is wasted. What's more, the .32 acp FMJ wound channel is most akin to an icepick.
So to me, there is a pretty clear advantage for .380 here.
I think the 9mm has a big edge over the .380 because the same DPX round weighs more, delivers more than double the energy, and drives deeper into the target. And there are just countless top ammo selections available in 9mm, some delivering over 500fpe of energy.
I agree that .357 magnum, 9mm, .38spl +P+, .38 Super, 40 and .357 sig are pretty much one as good as the other. I don't see any real difference in terminal performance between them at all when top loads are compared. However, the .45 can get nearly 1" expansion in a lot of tests. A 1" hole is a 1" hole. I think that sets it apart to a degree.
But i think any of them will work. I truly believe that stopping power has far, far more to do with the will to fight in the bad guy (or the good guy) than it does with caliber, bullet selection, or even shot placement.
Some people will get hit with a fatal hit and keep fighting regardless until they bleed out. Doesn't matter what they get hit with. 12ga shotgun, .50bmg, there are unbelievable accounts of people soaking up massive punishment in battle and still fighting on.
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Ledgehammer
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haha. There's no devil in the details - that's like shooting somebody in the temple with a .22. It's going to stop them right? The chances of you being that accurate are ridiculously small. My point is not many handguns really are stoppers. But if you having a .380 instead of a .32 acp makes you feel all warm and fuzzy then stick with it. You won't hear boo out of me for your choice. On the other hand I feel very comfortable with my kt32 and it's reliability and my ability to be accurate with it. It's not my only carry gun but I don't feel unarmed at all when it's all I can conceal.
valorius
member
Well i agree that a .380 FMJ to the gut is not a stopper, that's for sure.
A double tap of .380 Corbon DPX+P to the center of the chest...i suspect that's going to work over 90% of the time.
As for reliability, i found my P32 to be anything but. The daggone rimlock issue really bedeviled me. I ended up carrying a Buffalo Bore FN in the chamber and top round in the mag, with all Geco (which is "+P" compared to US ammo) FMJ backing them up.
I feel a lot better with 8 DPX in my .380.
A double tap of .380 Corbon DPX+P to the center of the chest...i suspect that's going to work over 90% of the time.
As for reliability, i found my P32 to be anything but. The daggone rimlock issue really bedeviled me. I ended up carrying a Buffalo Bore FN in the chamber and top round in the mag, with all Geco (which is "+P" compared to US ammo) FMJ backing them up.
I feel a lot better with 8 DPX in my .380.
In freak accident's specific story, a .38spl+P may very well have continued on through the arm and into the chest, instead of just a few small fragments hitting his BG in the chest.
Ledgehammer
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It was a hollowpoint. Anyway - I think we've gone as far as we can with this. Have a good one.
valorius
member
In the gut.
I think everyone agrees that gut shots are not the way to go for rapid incapacitation, in any caliber.
I think everyone agrees that gut shots are not the way to go for rapid incapacitation, in any caliber.
Handguns in general are just poor weapons. I once shot a Groundhog on the head with a 125 gr Winchester Silver Tip 38 Special from a four inch revolver. It was not a +P round.
That bullet slide between the forehead skin down into the neck, cutting a neck blood vessel. It did not pentrate the skull. While the poor Groundhog bled to death, it not was not an impressive demonstration of the "stopping" power of a 38.
Still, the 38 Spl is the lowest I go in a handgun.
Now, you want stopping power, get a Tulwar. I just finished a couple of books on the British Empire with descriptions of sword fights. You cut a guy's head off with a Tulwar, or cut his body in half, that is stopping power.
One of these will do quite nicely.
valorius
member
I'm more of a Katana guy myself.
Boris bush
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One good slash with that and you will have a 100% stop rate. Too bad we cannt carry them.......
Are you a ninja?
Are you a ninja?
valorius
member
Only when i'm working at the mall. LOL!
No, alas, i am but a simple ex infantry dude.
No, alas, i am but a simple ex infantry dude.
I'll just repeat one general observation about bullets and bodies, and leave it up to the reader to decide. No matter how two bullets apparently stack up against one another, they're all still awfully small in comparison to the human body (there is a difference in performance, but it's small).
Energy in and of itself tells us little, in my opinion. It's not enough energy to wound through temporary cavitation, so it's mostly a matter of how deep and how wide, in that order of importance (with shot placement being far more important than both). Sometimes having more energy actually hurts performance, because the round will tend to dump its energy and momentum faster, which reduces penetration. The energy is then transformed into a small amount of heat that is wasted, making the round less efficient.
I agree in the sense that many actual stops are psychological in nature (you frequently don't even need to fire!
), but I think that what most people have in mind in discussions is physical stopping power, which really requires a CNS hit or something really vital in the cardiovascular system, such as the aorta (and even then, some people keep fighting to the last second of life or consciousness). Just so we're clear about that. I think we're in general agreement here.- Status
