I purchased some Speer Lawman 9mm ammo,shot off 100 rounds and decided to reload the cases with RMR 124 MW. I was at about the 25th round when the thought of set back checking entered my old brain. Sure enough the bullets easily slid into the case when pressed against the bench. Usually I check for set back with the first couple of rounds and reload the same batches of brass together. The only time I have come across set back is with Blazer and Speer brass,all other brands work just fine......What is causing this? The brass alloy harder and has no spring back? Lesson learned,I wasted 100 CCI SPP .
What's up with the Lewiston brass?
- Thread starter JohnB-40
- Start date
Soonerpesek
Member
Can you pull the bullets, resize with no decapping pin, and seat without expanding............???
NMexJim
Member
First, use a kinetic bullet puller. Shouldn’t take but a tap or two. Keep your powder too. Like Sooner says, pull the recapping pin and resize the brass. Check your press, There is an eject bore where spent primers drop out so you will not be resizing on the seated primers. Been here, done this a bunch w/o a problem.
Make sure your resizing die is set correctly. I’m of the “slight cam over“ school; not opposed to a bit harder cam if needed.
Your case mouth OD should be under the measurement of your bullet diameter plus twice your case rim thickness. Make sure you’re not expanding too deep. Flare just enough for the bullet to snugly sit in the case mouth. If your neck tension is good, you just have to iron out the flare. I don’t recommend trying to over crimp 9mm or any round that doesn’t need a roll crimp.
Part of my routine includes pressing the first few rounds out of the press against the bench firmly to make sure I’ve got good neck tension. I’ve been surprised a time or two like you. This step eliminates the issue. If your bullets do happen to move, well, back to the drawing board.
When I run on problems like this, I just go back and reset all my dies With caliper and SAAMI drawing in hand. That always works for me although I can‘t say I’ve always found what the problem was.
Make sure your resizing die is set correctly. I’m of the “slight cam over“ school; not opposed to a bit harder cam if needed.
Your case mouth OD should be under the measurement of your bullet diameter plus twice your case rim thickness. Make sure you’re not expanding too deep. Flare just enough for the bullet to snugly sit in the case mouth. If your neck tension is good, you just have to iron out the flare. I don’t recommend trying to over crimp 9mm or any round that doesn’t need a roll crimp.
Part of my routine includes pressing the first few rounds out of the press against the bench firmly to make sure I’ve got good neck tension. I’ve been surprised a time or two like you. This step eliminates the issue. If your bullets do happen to move, well, back to the drawing board.
When I run on problems like this, I just go back and reset all my dies With caliper and SAAMI drawing in hand. That always works for me although I can‘t say I’ve always found what the problem was.
LiveLife
Member
Could be from case wall thickness and/or too much expanding of case neck/flare of case mouth.
From myth busting thread on neck tension and bullet setback, Speer along with Blazer and FC/.FC. brass measured with thinnest case wall at .100" below flush for taper crimp and .200" below flush for neck tension at bullet base - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10713822
And they produced most amount of bullet setback - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4
Average Case Wall Thickness .200" Below Case Mouth (Around Bullet Seating Depth for 115 gr FMJ/RN loaded to 1.130" OAL):
.0144" - CBC
.0138" - PPU
.0137" - GECO
.0135" - HRTRS
.0135" - Tulammo
.0133" - S+B
.0132" - WIN
.0131" - GFL
.0130" - AGUILA
.0130" - PERFECTA
.01225" Starline
.0122" - PMC
.0121" - R-P
.0115" - .FC.
.0111" - SPEER
.0110" - BLAZER
lordpaxman
Member
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2011
- Messages
- 2,434
Or you may be crimping too much? My Speer Lawman ammo is nickel plated - just curious if yours is? Try checking for setback before and after crimping.
LiveLife
Member
Yes, using too much taper crimp could reduce bullet diameter and brass spring back will reduce neck tension to produce bullet setback.
For .3555" sized RMR bullet, since Speer case wall thickness is .011", case neck/mouth measurement after taper crimp should .378" to not squish bullet (.3555" + .011" + .011" = ~ .378")
Thanks for the replies. I should have searched and found Live Life's postings. I see the Speer/Blazer brass have the least thickness below the case mouth. I guess this the reason for my set back problem. Just to be sure,with the dies still in the LCT from yesterday,I just ran 3 inert rounds each of Win,GFE and S&B. All had zero set back from pressing on the bench and chambering a round. Guess I will stay away from Lewiston brass and make sure I always check for set back at the beginning setup. I did pull the bullets and powder. Lesson learnt.
2ndtimer
Member
Out of curiosity, what brand of dies are you using? I was having issues loading .45 ACP with Lee dies. Picked up a set of RCBS carbide dies and the setback issues went away. My 9mm‘s are loaded on a Dillon 550 with Dillon dies and have no problems with setback with thousands of Federal and Blazer brass loaded.
NMexJim
Member
I too have used lots of Speer, CCI w/o problems. For myself, I would try to find the issue and see if I could get them working. If no luck, then put 'em in the recycle bin.
FROGO207
Member
You should be able to save the primers as well if you can't get the neck tension problems solved with the thin brass. Just deprime as normal using slow steady pressure using no hard contact to remove the live primers and keep them seperated from the used ones. I have recovered thousands of primers and used them over with no problems. Just remember steady pressure and no sharp hits and you will be fine. Wear eye and ear protection just in case. I have never set one off doing this. Another brand or even another die from the same maker will have a different sizing diameter and you may be able to use those brass as well. My Lee sizer works well with all brands of brass. You just got a loose one. They should replace it but.......
LiveLife
Member
That's another reloading variable.It's always the equipment or the brass never user error
That's why the myth busting was done to verify neck tension and bullet setback to capture measurable and repeatable data.
Using various sized bullets from .354" to .355"/.3555"/.356" and weights from 100 gr to 115 gr with shorter bullet bases were done to identify worse/worst combination situations.
As 12/3/6/9 o'clock position case wall thickness measurements at .100" below case mouth where taper crimp is applied and .200" below case mouth where most amount of neck tension is applied to bullet base from thicker case wall, greater bullet setbacks were measured with thinner case wall brass - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4
Will test criteria used for myth busting cover all bullet/brass combinations? Of course not, but data from myth busting thread will provide useful reference points for THR members and guests to use.
If you did not experience bullet setback with Speer/CCI brass, you are more than welcome to conduct myth busting for bullet setback while posting all the same measurement points I posted.
armoredman
Member
I never use Speer or Blazer brass with XTPs - they will set back every time. I just save them for cast bullets sized to .356, no problem.
Seems like several members have had not issues either? How about the thousands or more out there that have reloaded it in many other calibers.That's another reloading variable.
Will test criteria used for myth busting cover all bullet/brass combinations? Of course not, but data from myth busting thread will provide useful reference points for THR members and guests to use.
If you did not experience bullet setback with Speer/CCI brass, you are more than welcome to conduct myth busting for bullet setback while posting all the same measurement points I posted.
Have you notified Speer/CCI R&D Dept of your pages of exhaustive studies?
Seems a warning should be issued that their brass should not be reloaded and is good for only the original factory loading. As to the brass sold for reloading it should be recalled.
Grinding dust into individual molecules
LiveLife
Member
I agree with you as I already prefaced in my previous post that there are reloading variables and certain combinations of different components can produce differing outcome; specific to this thread discussion, neck tension and bullet setback. So my test results are not absolute but one particular data set to use as reference.
As to my approach to myth busting focusing on single variable to test (Whenever practical), it's the result of THR peanut gallery challenge of measurable/repeatable data with large enough sample size posed by likes of @Bart B. and @jmorris and others to which I agreed and changed my testing methodology and increased sample size.
1. So for neck tension myth busting related to headstamp brass, measurable bullet setback was isolated to better duplicate slide cycling and breech wall bottom stripping round from the magazine then wall face slamming bullet nose against the feed ramp to measure "real world" neck tension as manifested by bullet setback (Instead of static push on bullet nose against bench top) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4
2. Another myth busting/confirming where variables were narrowed down to single factor of headstamp (related to case wall thickness) and finished OAL variance loading on progressive press using the same RMR 115 gr FMJ where OAL variance amount was correlated to headstamp/case wall thickness - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...al-on-progressive-press.921633/#post-12684520
And when testing methodology and sample size concern was raised, I explained my methodology and sample sizing on this post - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...al-on-progressive-press.921633/#post-12685928
3. It used to be that once powder measure settled flakes/granules in the hopper, 10 drops were "good enough" to gauge how consistent powder measures metered and I used the same method for C-H 502 micrometer powder measure metering test of various powders - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/powder-measure-reccomendations.863943/#post-11398909
But with higher resolution digital scales that read to additional decimal point for grains weight unit, I wanted to see if there were metering variance measurable past the tenth decimal point and conducted 50 drops using Creedmoor Sports TRX-925 scale repeating countless 50 drop runs (One heck of a set of sample size) all the while addressing "real world" issues to determine that newest manual powder measure metered 90% of drops within .04 gr of target - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ct-powder-measure.922834/page-3#post-12751870
4. Challenge to sample size didn't end with reloading variables as @jmorris pointed out that 5 shot groups are simply subset of 10 shot groups, and 10 shot groups are subset of 50 shot groups, and so on. In agreement, after shooting 30,000 rounds of various 22LR ammunition, I increased my sample size to additional 10,000 rounds of 25+ brands/weights/lots of 22LR ammunition capturing every 5/10 shot group targets at 50/100 yards with targets fully documented in various break-in, accurizing and ammunition comparison threads - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...cheap-bulk-22lr-ammunition-comparison.908102/'
And what did I find?
I verified what @jmorris posted that 5/10 shot groups are simply subset of 50 shot groups and composite of hundreds of shot groups reflected true average (Not once in a blue moon smallest group) to post factory 10/22 18.5" taper barrel (Cold hammer forged) with lightened trigger, free-floated barrel, CPC reworked squared/headspaced/pinned factory bolt and bedded rear receiver was capable of producing average 1/2"-3/4" 50 yard groups with CCI SV and 3/4"-1" groups with Aguila ammunition on a consistent basis - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/new-10-22-sporter.926386/page-2#post-12859103
Of course, these are just a small sample of what I do for THR in isolating various reloading/shooting variables to myth bust/confirm with measurable and repeatable data.
If you disagree with my findings that thinner case wall brass produce more bullet setback, you are more than welcome to conduct your own testing with different components as to how not to produce bullet setback (Well, actually I did that and illustrated thinner case wall brass with larger sized 115 gr FMJ/RN bullets .3555" and .356" produced less bullet setback so using 124 gr FMJ/RN bullets with longer bullet base that will seat down further where case wall thickness is greater will likely produce less/no bullet setback).
But your claim of counter challenge is not new as you have questioned what I have myth busted/confirmed several times in the past and when I asked you provide your own test data to back up your claim, none was posted in return.
So I ask you once again, if you are in disagreement (And you could be right, as I already agreed), feel free to conduct your own testing and post your measurements along with test methodology used.
Peace.
Last edited:
longdayjake
Member
As a bullet maker I can't tell you how frustrating this issue has been for us. I've had to explain to tons of guys that our bullets are not undersized but the brass is thin. I've found that this issue is mostly reported by guys using MA dies that were designed to make ammo look "Factory New." Basically they are dies that size cases only just barely enough to hold the perfect bullet so long as the cases are perfect. Unfortunately, not all cases are created equal. I prefer the Dillon dies or even the Lee Undersize die. Lots of guys don't like the "Coke Bottle" look, but the guys who use those dies don't have setback issues.
LiveLife
Member
These are RMR 115 gr FMJ seated to target OAL of 1.130" in R-P "." brass using "regular" Lee dies/powder through expander (PTX) and finished rounds show "Coke Bottle" look with even bulging around case neck (indicating good neck tension) without bullet setback when fed from the magazine - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...powder-through-expander.916523/#post-12569719
These are RMR 115 gr FMJ seated to target OAL of 1.130" into R-P "." brass using "stepped M style PTX" (Now included in most die sets) and finished rounds showed distinct double bulging of case neck with top bulge from new "step" of M style PTX without bullet setback when fed from the magazine.
Lets go back to the beginning OP. The OP reloaded some once fired brass (essentially new) He was able to "Sure enough the bullets easily slid into the case when pressed against the bench."
Only he knows how they were resized, flared etc etc.
To me being able to push the bullet into the case is more that "setback" it is failure and much more than a fraction of an inch movement.
YOU then had to go into myth busting mode and recite/quote your data and threads. I have no doubt as to your measurements.
All I said was I doubt it was the brass and I have had no issue with that brand of brass.
It amazes me that Speer can manufacture gazillions of rounds of ammo , is used by LE and general consumers alike, reloaded and yet we here no horror stories of Kbooms due to severe "setback"
YOU then got into a fluster and felt the need to throw out a challenge to defend your findings (which I did not question)
Not everything is down to a fraction of a frog hair.
So peace and out.
LiveLife
Member
You are correct that we do not know what reloading variables OP is operating with.
I posted how different reloading variables can affect neck tension as manifested by bullet setback and for OP, the extreme of being able to simply push the bullet into the case.
And since OP is using Speer headstamp brass that happens to be thinner than most other headstamp brass, I posted my measurements and myth busting data to be considered as one of various reloading variables including too much expanding/flare of case neck/mouth - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/whats-up-with-the-lewiston-brass.928850/#post-12859120
So now OP has quite a bit of information to consider in conducting "root cause analysis" of why the bullets were able to be pushed down into case.
Thank you.
This I disagree with as I personally have experienced and many THR members have posted that even new factory ammunition experience bullet setback, some significantly based on headstamp of brass used (And related to case wall thickness as illustrated by myth busting thread data).
Knowing this is why I asked if you were able to produce no bullet setback finished rounds using Speer headstamp brass, to provide us with reloading variables as to components and measurements used so rest of THR members can benefit from as many of us have experienced bullet setback issues with Blazer/FC/Speer headstamp brass - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nd-bullet-setback.830072/page-3#post-10711682
And BTW for high pressure 9mm with small internal case volume, small change in OAL/bullet seating depth/bullet setback of a few thousandths can increase chamber pressure by several thousand PSI and I believe it's good to be aware of this fact, especially when loading near max/max load data so as to not exceed published max pressures - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-and-discussions.778197/page-11#post-12503881
Last edited:
GeoDudeFlorida
Member
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2020
- Messages
- 11,052
And THAT is what it’s all about!
I think if someone even mentioned the looks of my ammo I’d have to laugh at them. Like it matters?
