I was talking about seating a bullet in an empty case and cocking the bullet a little for testing purposes in the shop. Curiosity more than anything else. I did not mean to infer using service ammo.
What's your secret for very tight groups.
- Thread starter Thomasss
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I was talking about seating a bullet in an empty case and cocking the bullet a little for testing purposes in the shop. Curiosity more than anything else. I did not mean to infer using service ammo.
Perfectly round and perfectly centered correct ? It's the same as runout on a part manufactured on a lathe it seems.
Thank you for that explanation.
Roger that. As far as bullets go, high runout can be caused by a cocked bullet, a brass case the isn't straight, or a flawed bullet. I have found that if I use my Hornady bullet puller die on a soft match bullet, there is a chance for that bullet to get damaged. I have started using such pulled bullets for fouling shots, velocity test shots, etc.
Varminterror
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@Thomasss - what is a “very tight group”?
I ask this because - with all honesty - because I know by most standards, I very often shoot “very tight groups,” but without any sarcasm, that precision has come very simply for me in the last ~10yrs, whereas it came very hard for me in the ~15-20yrs before that, AND I have largely bought my way into that change, as I do far less today to achieve better results than I did back then.
But maybe you’re talking about “very, very, very tight groups,” to which my experience (or passion or interest) simply no longer applies.
I ask this because - with all honesty - because I know by most standards, I very often shoot “very tight groups,” but without any sarcasm, that precision has come very simply for me in the last ~10yrs, whereas it came very hard for me in the ~15-20yrs before that, AND I have largely bought my way into that change, as I do far less today to achieve better results than I did back then.
But maybe you’re talking about “very, very, very tight groups,” to which my experience (or passion or interest) simply no longer applies.
Hangingrock
Member
Constancy-hold, sight picture and trigger press.
I ask this because - with all honesty - because I know by most standards, I very often shoot “very tight groups,” but without any sarcasm,
But maybe you’re talking about “very, very, very tight groups,” to which my experience (or passion or interest) simply no longer applies.
"Aim small, miss small" comes to my mind. Every one has some concept of a "tight group" and many people achieve very tight groups.
I am interested in how they got there. There are a lot a variables that attribute tight shooting. I am curious what people have found being that ammo and supplies are extremely limited, it would be nice to share ideas, so we all quit repeating the same mistakes over and over.
But maybe you’re talking about “very, very, very tight groups,” to which my experience (or passion or interest) simply no longer applies.
"Aim small, miss small" comes to my mind. Every one has some concept of a "tight group" and many people achieve very tight groups.
I am interested in how they got there. There are a lot a variables that attribute tight shooting. I am curious what people have found being that ammo and supplies are extremely limited, it would be nice to share ideas, so we all quit repeating the same mistakes over and over.
Can you briefly explain how you achieved each listed item?
redcon1
member
1) practice
2) practice
3) practice
4) practice
2) practice
3) practice
4) practice
Nature Boy
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This thread tells the story
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/rifle-load-development-methods-compared.851637/
Varminterror
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I burned up some extra match ammo yesterday to get my brass batches back in line and this thread came to mind. I had the luxury of no pressure, just a little practice before a club match this wknd and a national match next weekend. I sent 35 rounds after 7 points of aim (one of my stickers fell off as set the target downrange - so the center target on bottom, my first group of the day, doesn’t have a sticker), and out of 7x 5 shot groups, I only left 11 holes in the paper (maybe actually only 9 or 10, but I didn’t plug the holes to see if the tears should count).
6 Dasher Lapua brass, 3rd firing, annealed after each, .267” bushing in Type S FL die, sans expander, .241” mandrel, BR4’s, 30.5grn Varget dispensed on an FX-120i with Autothrow and Autotrickle, under 105 Hybrids seated with Wilson chamber type due to a depth which was originally 5thou off of the lands 600 rounds ago, ~150 rounds on the barrel since last cleaning. No weight sorting anything, no neck turning. Harris bipod and Armageddon Gear Schmedium heavy fill waxy.
I aimed for center on the first target, but had added my suppressor, so I was hitting .2 high. Dialed down, ended up a bit lower than I wanted on the top left target, then went L to R, then bottom row L then R. Right hand group on bottom was fired rapidly, under 30 seconds on the shot timer, for 5 rounds.
I think some days, bullets get cold and try to huddle together to stay warm…
6 Dasher Lapua brass, 3rd firing, annealed after each, .267” bushing in Type S FL die, sans expander, .241” mandrel, BR4’s, 30.5grn Varget dispensed on an FX-120i with Autothrow and Autotrickle, under 105 Hybrids seated with Wilson chamber type due to a depth which was originally 5thou off of the lands 600 rounds ago, ~150 rounds on the barrel since last cleaning. No weight sorting anything, no neck turning. Harris bipod and Armageddon Gear Schmedium heavy fill waxy.
I aimed for center on the first target, but had added my suppressor, so I was hitting .2 high. Dialed down, ended up a bit lower than I wanted on the top left target, then went L to R, then bottom row L then R. Right hand group on bottom was fired rapidly, under 30 seconds on the shot timer, for 5 rounds.
I think some days, bullets get cold and try to huddle together to stay warm…
WestKentucky
Member
Figuring out gear capability is key. The best rifle in the world won’t shoot well with a junk scope, and a junk rifle wont shoot well no matter how great the glass is. It’s the point where you find your biggest variable that you know if your doing your part well. If you are, you are, and if ya ain’t ya ain’t. And that’s all there is to it. Now that the gun is straightened out it’s time to straighten out the shooter.
JJFitch
Member
I once counted precision 22 steps to get "really tiny groups". Some of the most important steps are required before the final round is assembled.
This is one of the reasons I have dedicated progressive presses for the two rifle rounds i use for "precision rifle" games. I also have dedicated progressive presses for precision pistol games.
These days i may have to have someone else shot the thing if I want "really tiny groups"! Nothing will ruin your ability like arthritis in your neck!
jmorris
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The obvious answer is to limit those variables as much as possible, including yourself.
There is a time to practice but if you want to know what the equipment is capable of, any outside influence from you is counter productive towards that goal.
If your rest is solid enough and rifle recoil is small enough, you can put them through the same hole like at the end of this 60 second video.
rhodester
Member
With a handgun, other than the usual: grip, trigger control and breathing, I try to remember two things.
First, let it surprise you.
Second, let it happen, don’t make it happen.
First, let it surprise you.
Second, let it happen, don’t make it happen.
JFrank
Member
A good rifle helps’ and so will load development skills that continue to evolve. Having a steady platform that will track well is essential for my disciple far above any data spreadsheets or chronographs or annealing machines.
The targets never lie is a saying we use quite often and when I get these groups at 500 yards I know I’m on the right path.
The targets never lie is a saying we use quite often and when I get these groups at 500 yards I know I’m on the right path.
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redcon1
member
What's your rifle/ammo there if you don't mind telling?
JFrank
Member
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/long-range-tuning.883884/
I don’t really have any secrets just roll up your sleeves and get busy
redcon1
member
That's impressive shooting. Inspirational even. makes me want to up my game but I don't see myself upping it to the 1,000 yard benchrest game any time soon but maybe at some point.
JFrank
Member
Thank you, for myself it’s more about the journey then the destination, we tune our hunting rifles the same way just not as far.
lightman
Member
There are several things required to consistently shoot small groups;
The rifle has to be capable. Good barrel, good trigger, good bedding, good optics, good crown.
The Ammo has to be capable. Case, primer, bullet, powder charge loaded as consistently as possible.
The shooter has to be capable. Good rest, good form and discipline, good trigger control, ability to read the wind.
When all of those things come together you have a chance of shooting a small group. And then you have to define small. A small group with a hunting rifle will be different than a group from a winning benchrest rifle.
The rifle has to be capable. Good barrel, good trigger, good bedding, good optics, good crown.
The Ammo has to be capable. Case, primer, bullet, powder charge loaded as consistently as possible.
The shooter has to be capable. Good rest, good form and discipline, good trigger control, ability to read the wind.
When all of those things come together you have a chance of shooting a small group. And then you have to define small. A small group with a hunting rifle will be different than a group from a winning benchrest rifle.
55fairlane
Member
Small shot groups (same as matches won/lost) don't come from the loading bench, they don't come from ultra light weight triggers, or massive optics......
They come from practice, practice practice! Practice dry firing, practice getting in position (and the dry fire). Do this drill I your cost, with your sling , know your rifle, muscle memory is key , then live fire practice.
I shot many decent scores with a 7 pound trigger a day a crappy PSA rifle.....had to learn it all over again once I got my national match, now I'm doing again with my match rifle
They come from practice, practice practice! Practice dry firing, practice getting in position (and the dry fire). Do this drill I your cost, with your sling , know your rifle, muscle memory is key , then live fire practice.
I shot many decent scores with a 7 pound trigger a day a crappy PSA rifle.....had to learn it all over again once I got my national match, now I'm doing again with my match rifle
Varminterror
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This is patently false for BR - as in, the folks who shoot the smallest groups on the planet. It’s also patently false for ELR - as in, the folks who shoot the farthest of any competition known to man. Practice is great, and skills are required, but many, many matches are won by the reloading bench, and by the machine sending bullets downrange.
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