What's your take on a Saiga-12

[bubba in ca]

I`ve never considered a Saiga because if I thought I needed more than 6 shots I would take a rifle, and for what a saiga costs plus adds-ons and gunsmithing, I could get a decent rifle (or2?).

If I lived where a suitable rifle was not legal, the Saiga might not be legal , either. Plus I still stick to my general rule: have they been around 5 years or more with a million made and are they supported by quality company, preferably American? I`ve had hobby guns and I`ve been a guinea pig for gun manufactuirers and I have graduated from that stuff.

You might want to check out Suarez`website. He has a sticky and a recent post on them. http://www.warriortalk.com/forumdisplay.php?32-The-Combat-Shotgun

 

[Flashcube]

I rather like mine in it's factory "sporter" configuration. It also seems to be one of the rare exceptions, in that it's been 100% reliable since it's first outing. I mean on everything right down to and including cheap bulk Wal-Mart Federal and Winchester.

Makes for a fun range toy if nothing else... pretty accurate with slugs too.

Pump still does bedside duty though.

 

[gazpacho]

When Russian American Arms Corporation (RAAC) first impoeted the Saiga 12, I jumped at it and bought 2. (One for play and pne for parts.) These were the ones shipped with barrels 1/8 inch too short to be legal, and had to be sent back to RAAC to have their chokes welded on, per ATF.

Anyway, the shooter has proven to be reliable, as any AK is expected to be. What I don't like about the Saiga 12 is that except for one ofthe drums, all the available magazines are plastic, and IMO not all that durable. Granted, I haven't owned all of them, but my opinion still stands. I've given up on finding a suitable magazine, and I am selling one of my Saiga's to a friend (so don't PM me please) who will enjoy my EARLY TROMIX shotgun.

Very recently though, I found that Csspecs makes a very good steel 8rd and 10rd magazine for the Saiga 20. So I bought a Saiga 20, did a simple PG conversion, and have been VERY happy with it.

I'm keeping my second Saiga 12, because it is a perfectly good shotgun.

Edit: BTW when out shooting with friends, precious little will put that stupid grin on someones face like dumping a magazine with a Saiga.

 

[Pete D.]

SN13:

I will say that the S-12 does not make an IDEAL trap gun. The Trap game does not lend itself to magazine fed guns very well. But to say that a S-12 is incapable of competing "is ludicrous at best". I have personally beaten guys with $10k O/U's at Trap with my S-12 19" barrel with a Polychoke and Ghost Ring Sights. When I shot trap every week I would hit 22-25/25 with the saiga by hand-feeding each round for singles with the bolt held back with the bolt-hold-open.

If you did that well with the Saiga - basically a rifle configuration - you are quite a good shot. How well do you shoot Trap singles with a gun configured for the game? I suspect that you run 25s regularly. (I do not mean that sarcastically). You did not say that that Saiga was an ideal Trap and Skeet gun, true. You did say, however, that it was a fine gun for those purposes. I submit that that is an overstatement. You are, apparently, a better than average shot and offering yourself as an example is misleading. I suspect that most shooters picking up a Saiga and using it for either 16 yard Trap or for Skeet would not do nearly as well.
What I am mostly reacting to, though, is the part of the comment about beating "guys with $10k O/Us". The implication is that guys with expensive shotguns are all good shots and because you outshot some of them that the Saiga is at least as good a gun as that Perazzi. You have to know that that is not true. I regularly beat guys with very expensive shotguns using an old Parker SXS.....and I am not any more than an average Trap shot. Some guys have more money than skill and out shooting them means little.
That all has little to do with Saigas. I am fascinated by how many folk are really into high capacity shotguns. I am not. I have no real use for one....already have a dozen or so SGs, don't shoot three gun competitions, can't use it for hunting (are there three shot mags for it? It is also somewhat heavy for walking the upland all day at close to eight pounds) and I am not going to war.
Aside from three gun matches (I am willing to bet that most owners of the Saigas don't shoot 3 Gun) what do you do with the thing that requires more than three rounds? Seems to be more of a toy than anything else.....and nothing wrong with toys.

Pete

 

[SN13]

SN13:
Quote:
I will say that the S-12 does not make an IDEAL trap gun. The Trap game does not lend itself to magazine fed guns very well. But to say that a S-12 is incapable of competing "is ludicrous at best". I have personally beaten guys with $10k O/U's at Trap with my S-12 19" barrel with a Polychoke and Ghost Ring Sights. When I shot trap every week I would hit 22-25/25 with the saiga by hand-feeding each round for singles with the bolt held back with the bolt-hold-open.

If you did that well with the Saiga - basically a rifle configuration - you are quite a good shot. How well do you shoot Trap singles with a gun configured for the game? I suspect that you run 25s regularly. (I do not mean that sarcastically). You did not say that that Saiga was an ideal Trap and Skeet gun, true. You did say, however, that it was a fine gun for those purposes. I submit that that is an overstatement. You are, apparently, a better than average shot and offering yourself as an example is misleading. I suspect that most shooters picking up a Saiga and using it for either 16 yard Trap or for Skeet would not do nearly as well.
What I am mostly reacting to, though, is the part of the comment about beating "guys with $10k O/Us". The implication is that guys with expensive shotguns are all good shots and because you outshot some of them that the Saiga is at least as good a gun as that Perazzi. You have to know that that is not true. I regularly beat guys with very expensive shotguns using an old Parker SXS.....and I am not any more than an average Trap shot. Some guys have more money than skill and out shooting them means little.
That all has little to do with Saigas. I am fascinated by how many folk are really into high capacity shotguns. I am not. I have no real use for one....already have a dozen or so SGs, don't shoot three gun competitions, can't use it for hunting (are there three shot mags for it? It is also somewhat heavy for walking the upland all day at close to eight pounds) and I am not going to war.
Aside from three gun matches (I am willing to bet that most owners of the Saigas don't shoot 3 Gun) what do you do with the thing that requires more than three rounds? Seems to be more of a toy than anything else.....and nothing wrong with toys.

Pete

Pete,

I actually never got a 25 with the (relatively) cheap O/U i bought to fit-in a little better (sold that now). I found that I had an easier time hitting the Trap targets with the rifle-like setup of the S-12. That's probably because my first long gun was a Mosin Nagant M39, and second was a Saiga 7.62x39... The point being that I had thousands of rounds down Iron "Leaf" style sights before i picked up a shotgun, and when I finally picked up a shotgun, it was a Saiga-12. I learned on the S-12 so to me, it feels natural. It feels like a rifle, and I like rifles. I don't own any guns now that don't have detachable box magazines, be it pistol, rifle, or shotgun. (Edit, I have a .22LR Revolver)

I'm not saying the Saiga-12 is a better trap gun than an O/U custom fit @ $10,000+, what I'm saying is that you don't NEED to spend that kind of money to compete. The shooter has more to do with it than the gun. A properly choked 18.5" barrel can pattern just as well as a properly choked 32" barrel. The rest is the shooter's use of that pattern.

Some one makes a 2rd magazine for the Saiga. I bought 5 to use in 5-stand. But sometime between the purchase of the 2rd mags, and actually getting out to shoot 5-stand, i put a magwell on the shotgun and never got the chance.

Besides 3-gun, what does anyone NEED more than 3 rounds for? That's a universal shotgun question isnt it? Do you need an 8rd tube on your 870 by the bed? Probably not. Do you NEED 8 rounds on your Semi-Auto tube feeders? No. Are all of those toys as well? can you not down-load or plug the tube to capacity? People do the same with the 5rd mags!

I used to own a 20rd drum, no more. If the round count is 21 or more, I'm actually faster using 3 stick mags and making quick magwell reloads, than dealing with the rock n lock drum + a mag.

I'm not so much fascinated with high-capacity shotguns, I'm more fascinated with an AK shotgun. And, unlike some AR-15 look-alike shotguns, the S-12 actually FUNCTIONS like an AK. Similar bolts, bolt carriers, hammers, triggers, gas systems, etc. etc. etc. It IS an AK on steroids, not a Rem1100* with AR furniture. (Akdal MKA 1919)

*I mean it looks like a standard US Tube-fed Semi-Auto but wrapped in AR-15 clothes.

 

[Bhi curamach]

Pete D. In response to your 3 round mag question. As mentioned by SN13 there are 2 founders. In addition several folks over at the saiga forum have used blocks of varying types(from spent shells wood bocks etc to fabricated larger followers) to limit capacity to three. Finally SG Mag's have a feature allowing cutting the mag body just under the next ridge which removes two shell capacity permanently. The plate then is slid over the ridge and you've got a perfectly functional reduced cap mag.
I did this to my 10 round as it was too long for my taste.
In theory you could do this with their 5 round Mag's but I'm not certain if the 5's ridge is at the 2 or 3 mark. All others seem to be every two rounds.
cheers

 

[Pete D.]

A properly choked 18.5" barrel can pattern just as well as a properly choked 32" barrel. The rest is the shooter's use of that pattern.

Yes, of course, the shooter, the pattern. There is a difference, I expect, in swing dynamics. But familiarity goes a long way .

Besides 3-gun, what does anyone NEED more than 3 rounds for? That's a universal shotgun question isnt it? Do you need an 8rd tube on your 870 by the bed? Probably not. Do you NEED 8 rounds on your Semi-Auto tube feeders? No. Are all of those toys as well?

I learned long ago that "need" is a very dangerous word. I rarely, if ever, tell others about what they need to feel happy or complete. The most that I can say is that I don't need a gun with more than two shells in it for anything that I do with a shotgun.
And, yes, if I had one of those guns that you mentioned, it would be a toy.

Thank you for your thoughtful response. (and Bhi curamach also).
Pete

 

[WardenWolf]

My father liked my upgraded Saiga 12 much better than his Remington 1100 the first time he shot it. Off the bat, he hit more clays with it than with the 1100. Granted, I'm not too surprised. The 1100 is a rude beast. Extremely loud and kicks hard. The Saiga is much more shooter-friendly in that regard. The rifle-style sights also offer easy alignment. Just aim right below the clay, and watch it go away. Some people may not like having to aim slightly low, but I like it because it gives me full visibility of my target, and it's very intuitive once you've done it a few times.

 

[merrill]

R I G H T...............please show me the folks who have won with one of these.......there aren't any

If you want an AK-style gun that shoots a lot of ammo quickly, and maybe hits something, get one and have fun - to compare this as having the same capability as a trap or skeet gun is ludicrous at best

As to the person mentioning the 8" barrel, besides that being regulated here in the US, the performance loss is way to great - you'd be better off with an AR carbine

Other than shooting it, I know nothing about it. It would make a good "alley cleaner" or household defense weapon. The guy who had it has the necessary liscenses. He does not own it. He had it for photographic purposes. At close range it is devastating.

 

[[Pb]]

The Saiga-12 does not make a lot of sense to most people until you add the drum magazine, then it is in a class of its own compared to anything else available to civilians in the US or really anywhere else. I have taken the time to be learn the balance of the gun with an MD-arms 20 round drum, and it is now faster for me to shoot at close ranges than any of my other 3 shotguns, including a nice beretta AL-2. Not everyone feels this way obviously, but I think the platform has a lot of merit as a close quarters weapon and if you are willing to learn how to use it instead of treating it like a tube-fed shotgun and expecting it to point like one it is very capable and ergonomic. There really aren't any other shotguns that have a comparable capacity, and the ones that have even close to half the capacity are so badly front heavy that they are difficult to use quickly in close quarters. The only reason I see to using tube-fed guns is when there is an issue of maneuverability and the magazine or charging handle could get caught on something, (car, etc) but if you really want the most firepower and that's not an issue I don't think it can be beat. I have heard some people complain about reliability, but again, I really haven't found this to be a problem for me, so I will continue to trust my Saiga-12.