what's your thoughts on the R 15 ,R 25 vtr

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Oh boy. Here we go again.

In the interest of saving time I am going to copy and paste one of my replies to an old thread asking me the same thing.

I used to own and sell DPMS, along with BM and others. No more. I no longer work in the Firearms business but if I did then I would only sell quality stuff. My guns now consist of DD, BCM, Colt, Noveske, and similar level quality parts. Do I spend more per gun? Yes a little. However the extra couple hundred bucks is worth the peace of mind knowing that the parts and guns have been properly built, tested, and inspected. Can these steps eliminate failures? Of course not. However they can help minimize the possibility.

Just so that people don't think I am making stuff up here are a couple examples of problems from DPMS carbines.

This first photo is the first round fired from a DPMS AP4 purchased in early 2005.
I had near identical results from another rifle purchased less than a year later.

badbullet.jpg


These next photos of of a couple lowers shown to me by a dealer friend of mine. They were both part of a complete lower kit. He fought with DPMS for a year to get them replaced and finally gave up. He instead now uses them for examples of why he won't deal with DPMS.

DPMS1.JPG


DPMS5.JPG


As you can see in these photos the anodizing goes into the crack, meaning that this happened at some point in assembly and was missed before it went out the door. This is something even a cursory inspection should have found.

I also used to have a photo of a broken FSB from one of my guns but can't find it anymore. On top of that I had numerous guns I sold break in shipping. Stock and handguards routinely would arrive at my dealers with cracks in them. If these guns can't take bouncing around in a UPS van then why would I ever rely on one to shoot when I need it too.

Sorry for the mini rant but we as shooter deserve better than this. There was a time when it could almost be argued that the problems DPMS had were worth the difference in price for a non-serious shooter. However with 6920s selling under 1K and DD/BCM/S&W going for even less, there is no excuse to even look at DPMS.
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So to answer your question. Yes. Not only have I owned them, but I used to have the displeasure of selling them as well. So I wasn't just dealing with a sample size of one or two. I was dealing with a sample size of hundreds. I also attend Carbine training classes almost monthly and shoot between 400-1000 rounds per month. In all that time I have seen 1 quality AR have problems. On the other hand I have seen a number of issues out of companies like DPMS, BM, Doublestar, Etc.
 
You didn't read my whole post did you?

I also used to have a photo of a broken FSB from one of my guns but can't find it anymore. On top of that I had numerous guns I sold break in shipping. Stock and handguards routinely would arrive at my dealers with cracks in them. If these guns can't take bouncing around in a UPS van then why would I ever rely on one to shoot when I need it too.
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so you have three examples from hundreds of rifles and every product they make is crap? lol
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Read more carefully. Those are just the ones he bothered to take pictures of.
 
I like you kewlz you backed up yr point w pics verry nice/ i found it to b verry helpfull.I have heard the same thing about dpms from my friend who builds ar 15 for ppl. His quote dpms is unreliable and he no longer builds dpms ar 15's anymore.
 
I like you kewlz you backed up yr point w pics verry nice/ i found it to b verry helpfull.I have heard the same thing about dpms from my friend who builds ar 15 for ppl. His quote dpms is unreliable and he no longer builds dpms ar 15's anymore.
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Lol. I have a dpms ap4 that I bought in 2007 that has been been flawless even with steel ammo. Dpms might be more prone to put out a lemon, but they source their parts from the same people that many other brands use that don't get nearly the same amount of bad press.

Secondly, you're siting examples from 6 years ago. I'm sure those issues have been ironed out in the past 6 years.
 
Lol. I have a dpms ap4 that I bought in 2007 that has been been flawless even with steel ammo. Dpms might be more prone to put out a lemon, but they source their parts from the same people that many other brands use that don't get nearly the same amount of bad press.

Secondly, you're siting examples from 6 years ago. I'm sure those issues have been ironed out in the past 6 years.
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I cited 2 examples from 6 years ago. I sold them up till 2009 and to this day still see failures all the time.

You need to understand the concept of sample size and use. It is great that your AP4 has worked so well. But that is a sample size of one. Our of my sample size of 4 (Maybe 5) personally owned ones I had 3 with issues. This however is still a very small sample size. So looking at the hundreds if not thousands I sold (I worked wholesale) you have a much more accurate sample size. And I can tell you that I never had a week go by without some problems.

Now you are also falling into the same misunderstanding a lot of people do about ARs. Yes many companies get their parts from the same suppliers. That does not mean that all the parts are made the same.

Different companies have different requirements for what they will accept. A very vague example. Say one company allows for a tolerance of +/- 4% while another only allows for a +/- of 1%. Obviously the QC level will have to be much higher for the second company. This means the parts will tend to cost more. In addition most companies do a lot of their own finishing and QC checks. The DPMS lowers in my above post are the perfect example of this.They probably got the raw forging from the same supplier as many other AR companies do. Do you think a company that people consider Tier 1 or even Tier 2 would allow one much less TWO of those to go out? I know I would never allow a product like that to go out. I take to much pride in what I own and what I provide to others.

I am very glad your AP4 has worked for you. How much have you shot it? Not the overall round count but how many rounds does it see in a given session? If an AR isn't going to be run hard then usually even a low quality AR will be fine. But when the price difference is so small if there at all then why even take the chance?
 
It's seen about 2000rds spread out over seven or eight range trips. Mostly 28 rd shot groups with the mandatory 1 second between shots. Not heavy use, but more than most will see.

I guess I got super lucky
 
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Btw, I too took statistics and I hate to break it to you but 6 guns is not a significant sample size either. In fact most studies have a variance larger than that. It sounds like you got a bad batch.

So if you sold thousands like you say did, let's say you sold 5000 even 50 problems with the guns is only 1%. so that's not bad
 
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After looking at a lot of AR's, I have to say that those LMT .308's look pretty nice. If I were to get a .308 AR though, I'd go with the SCAR17. Pricey, but at least it has been adopted. And yes, it basically is an AR design. The JP Ent. .308's are probably really nice too.

The DPMS is okay, I had one, but I wasn't impressed.

As far as 5.56, LMT or Noveske make a better complete rifle if you aren't building it yourself.

Take a look at Rainier Arms. They specialize in AR's, all calibres. They only sell good stuff, not junk, but they do have some stuff that isn't top shelf. Still quality though. Cheapest they sell is White Oak and Stag I think.
 
I have found that people put DPMS in a class above where it should be....s&w,daniel defense,colt when they tend to fall more in the class of...saber,olympic ....I wouldn't say they are bad I've heard of people having Oly,s and saber,s that are fine shooters ....just got a saber A4 flat top my self....but the QC at DPMS need to pay more attention.....I've seen lil things like the pin that holds the gas tube to the block just flat out be missing....not loose...not there....u would think that kinda stuf would be found ....if they shot the gun once in final QC the would have found it....
 
I just can't get over how ugly those things are, those camo jobs really ruin a pretty rifle...other than that, there probably just as good as any other over the counter AR.
 
I got the R15 in 30 Remington AR, and it is a very acurate and reliable rifle.
I use mine for hunting deer and hogs .
I reload 150 gr Noslers ballistic tips for hunting and sierras 135 gr HP match bullets for fun.
If you want high speed you can get close to 3000 fps with 130 gr bullets.
 
I have found that people put DPMS in a class above where it should be....s&w,daniel defense,colt when they tend to fall more in the class of...saber,olympic ....I wouldn't say they are bad I've heard of people having Oly,s and saber,s that are fine shooters ....just got a saber A4 flat top my self
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no one has said DPMS is equal to Colt or DD. people are just saying that they are not pure garbage like hesse like people seem to keep harping on about on the internet.

you put Sabre in the same class as Olympic? Sabre used to be a government contractor. you need to seriously stop posting so much and start reading more...

s&w is no where near as good as DD and colt.

S&W uses 4140 steel (like DPMS) my DD barrel is cold hammer forged 4150 steel
doesn't MPI/HP or shot peen their BCGs or barrels (like DPMS) DD and Colt both MPI/HP test their bolts/bcgs/barrels
Doesn't properly stake their BCGs (unlike DPMS) DD and Colt both do

so if anything DPMS is about equal to S&W when it comes to construction and materials.

please stop posting misinformation.

In reality the hierarchy is more like

1. Sabre, DD, Colt, BCM, Knights, Noveske
2. DPMS, S&W, RRA, BM, Stag
3. Olympic, Hesse, Blackthorne, Roggio
 
I would argue that the fact they are camoed DPMS rifles is exactly what makes them NOT fine.
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sounded an awful lot like baiting to me but then luckily for me I continued to read before i put on my flaming boots. sounds and looks like he got some lemons, every gun manufacturer makes lemons, even Kewls precious colt, although some will have more than others. I will say that I own a DPMS sportical, probably the lowest of the low as far as kewls is concerned but I drag it out in the woods every chance I get. it bangs against trees, rained on, covered in dust, dirt, gravel, chaff and, debris. it has never failed me once, with the exception that I had bought a bad batch of uber-hot loads which made the casings squelch up(much like the one in kewls pics) and unable to extract, I returned the ammo and replaced it with vaious lake city and now many hundreds of rounds later not a single malfunction to speak of. it is still a sub MOA rifle without a single dent, scratch, or visible flaw.

in closing, I cant blame kewls for his views on DPMS, I am the exact same way with Kahr based on personal experiences similar to his. however it really isn't fair to throw DPMS in the same category as rossi, taurus and keltec when they do turn out a lot of good guns.
 
Here is my $0.02 worth.
I bought an R-15 in .223 with the 22" barrel 2 years ago for varmint hunting, primarily coyotes. Not self defense, combat courses, SHTF, you get the idea. (I have a BCM for that).
I have a sample of one. Can speak of it only.
I did not like the factory trigger at all, and replaced it with a Timney 3lb.
Tried about 10 different factory loads, and shot them all to the same point of aim 1" five shot groups at 100yd or very close to it.
One load, the Hornady 55gr Vmax, will keep them at 1/2". Or less.
This makes it the most accurate gun I own, beating two bolt actions with high $$$ custom barrels. FYI it is scoped with a Burris Signature Select 3-12x44.
You can call it a rebadged whatever the heck you want.
After the trigger change, I could not be happier with it for its intended use.
One guys opinion on one rifle, FWIW.
 
tahunua001 I only have a second before I need to leave but I would like to bring up 2 points.

1: My view of DPMS rifles is not just based off of personal experience. It is based off of personal experience, research into the subject, discussions with experts int he field and a whole heck of a lot of training and seeing what does and doesn't work for others.

2: If you are going to debate a point it is important to be gather knowledge on the topic and also usually good form to at least make sure you get the name of the person you are debating with correct. You don't seem to have done either. Maybe I would not be so annoyed if it wasn't my actual name but it is KWELZ not kewls. I could understand if you had just heard it spoken and made is kwells. But come on. kewls? It is written right there when I post.
 
WYcoyote said:
Here is my $0.02 worth.
I bought an R-15 in .223 with the 22" barrel 2 years ago for varmint hunting, primarily coyotes. Not self defense, combat courses, SHTF, you get the idea. (I have a BCM for that).
I have a sample of one. Can speak of it only.
I did not like the factory trigger at all, and replaced it with a Timney 3lb.
Tried about 10 different factory loads, and shot them all to the same point of aim 1" five shot groups at 100yd or very close to it.
One load, the Hornady 55gr Vmax, will keep them at 1/2". Or less.
This makes it the most accurate gun I own, beating two bolt actions with high $$$ custom barrels. FYI it is scoped with a Burris Signature Select 3-12x44.
You can call it a rebadged whatever the heck you want.
After the trigger change, I could not be happier with it for its intended use.
One guys opinion on one rifle, FWIW.
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Dang, my experience is exactly the same! I put in a Timney trigger, put an extended release on the charging handle, and replaced the grip with an Ergo earth tone grip. It shares duty with my Sako 75 .223 for shooting coyotes. Both are darn near perfect for it. I double-checked the zero on the R-15 three weeks ago and shot, first try, a 1 3/4 inch five-shot group at 200 yards with Hornaday's 55 grain v-maxes. I didn't even bother to fire a second group.

Now we have a sample of two. Maybe the barrels are just a little better quality than some normal Bushmaster products. Who knows.

BTW, the camo works for me because this is a HUNTING rifle. Yep, it can do other things, but hunting is its primary duty.
 
Kwelz, what about a gun that works fine for "my" purposes? I think DPMS is a decent rifle, and I am glad to see that they have found a way that might put an AR in every home in America.
 
bhk, you can add mine in for a sample of three. Only thing, I didn't have to replace the trigger. There were three in the store when I bought mine: The trigger was so-so on two, and good on the one I bought.

I should point out that manufacturers will actually consider returned goods as a failure of quality control and will actually take steps to rectify the situation. Returned goods cost money (including inciting unhappy customers to publicize their distaste which may actually hurt sales). My r-15 is a 2010 manufactured rifle, and the problems from 2008 may well have been corrected.
 
Rshooter, if it works for you then that is great. But what people often confuse is a getting a rifle that hasn't failed yet with a rifle that is actually quality. There is a big difference.

The fact that yours has worked for you does not change the fact that DPMS rifles cut so many corners. Barrel Steel, barrel profile, lack of testing of parts. Hell, an apparent lack of QC period. And for all those cutting of corners you save no real money. So why? Because some gunshop commando told you it was "just as good as"?

I hear a lot of people say they "did their research" and found that DPMS, or Oly, or Bushmaster, or whatever was great. What they really mean is that they asked a few people who don't really know any more than they do what they purchased. Research would include looking at the specs, materials, testing, ect. It would mean talking to and reading up on actual experts and people who have used the weapons.

I can think of less than 10 people who I would really trust when it came to the facts on the AR platform. All of them have had year and years of experience shooting, teaching, building, fixing, and breaking ARs. None of them are going to BS you and tell you that a gun is "good enough" It is either quality or it isn't. The one who build and sell ARs could make a lot more money if they sold those lower quality brands. But they don't Because they would rather set people on the right course than just make a buck.
 
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