When Called: Conscription

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I love the draft is not slavery, but necessary crowd.
How is it that you assume all the wars fought by this Govt are necessary, rightous and do really protect my, your freedoms?
Most Conservatives have little faith in Govt with almost every program/idea it creates. (Conservatives are for limited Govt because we know how the Govt sucks at getting it right compared to the free market) Yet some will run to Govt and act like its this Holy, pure as the wind driven snow group that doesnt have an mislead bone in it body when it come to fighting wars. The track record in the last 50 years is not comforting.

I will gladly join a citizen army to protect the homeland. But never if it means going half way around the world to fight some administrations "conflict". I dont trust our Govt with my life. I think thats what freedom means.........
 
The constitution gives congress the right to raise armies. It does not specifically state that those armies can be raised through the conscription of it's population. It has been interpreted as such because it proved usefull.

Oh, and for those saying that the draft is exclusively a part of being an American citizen, you might want to tell that to our population of legal resident aliens, who are also required to register for selective service and are subject to consription just like anyone else.

In that vein it is interesting to note that part of the oath required during naturalization includes this statement:

I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law;

I guess naturalized citizens are bound by this oath. As a born citizen I never took it, neither did most Americans.
 
There's nothing patriotic or noble about going over to Iraq and stepping into the middle of a religious power struggle that we only got into as a form of "oil colonialism" and defense contractor subsidies.

Who's going to invade the US? A bunch of drunk hockey fans? Gardeners looking for jobs?
 
If one's countrymen are being drafted into war, any citizen worth his salt will answer the call and take his lumps with his brothers, even if he feels a draft is slavery. Draft-dodging is poor citizenship, selfish childishness and cowardice, not necessarily in that order.

Amen, brother. Amen.
 
What's wrong with poor citizenship? What's so great about having an empire? I don't want an empire. I don't want a powerful country that can go around stomping on other countries. I want a country with a weak military, one that spends little money on military adventures and conquest. Big powerful militaries and big powerful countries don't bring any benefit to their citizens.
 
The following should be agreed upon by all, no matter their opinion of the draft.

If one's countrymen are being drafted into war, any citizen worth his salt will answer the call and take his lumps with his brothers, even if he feels a draft is slavery. Draft-dodging is poor citizenship, selfish childishness and cowardice, not necessarily in that order.
Bravado about courage and honor is nice, until you're shot in the head.
 
In real life, there will be any number of shirkers, malcontents and cowards for whom nothing is worth the untimate sacrifice.

True enough. But how many times do you have to smack yourself in the head with a hammer before drafting said shirkers, malcontents and cowards and trying to force them to fight seems like a good idea?

The day and age when wars were fought with massed troops backed by officers with pistols at the ready to kill any deserters are LONG LONG GOND and are never ever coming back. The draft is as anachronistic as the massed infantry formation or notions of "elan."

Moreover, the day and age when the feds represented the people, and deserved recognition as the voice of the people, is long gone. They are only barely representative. The militias, in contrast, are traditionally controlled on a state by state basis as a defensive force to resist invasion. The last time they were used on a large scale was in fact to fight off an invasion--by the federal government.

72% of our young people are not qualified for military service under the current rules/regs/policies/law according to the VFW magazine.

All the more reason a draft would be an abject and costly disaster. I'm sure it would "save" many tough cases, and help a lot of kids find their way. But that's not what the damned military is for. It's not to help people get in shape or "straighten them out." It's for winning diplomatic arguments by slaughtering the enemy. That's it.

Of course, using the military as a social services organization to "toughen up" the young and give them a sense of national purpose is a key part of any socialist system. You'll find it in use across Europe, as well as the sort of tyranny Kim ran from. If you support it, you support that system and that worldview. You believe the nation stands in the place of parents and we stand in the place of children. I do not hold to that view.

On top of all this, if it really comes to a mass invasion of American shores the whole thing is moot. The soldiers will find their nation of origin a glowing hole with a half life of thirty years. If their nation also has nukes, then it's bye bye to all of us--again making the whole issue nicely moot. We can destroy all advanced life forms on the planet, and as long as we are willing to do so we will find ourselves very secure indeed. Frankly we have even less call for a huge standing army now than we did in the 1790's, but don't try telling the Pentagon that.
 
I wouldn't care if the Constitution specifically allowed the government to conscript soldiers, I would still do everything in my power to escape its grasp


Translated to read: I'm going to reap the benefits of everything this country has to offer but if it ever comes time to pay up, I'm out of here.

I love it how people will sit here and scream till they are red in the face about how liberals are reading the 2nd amendment out of the constitution, but at the same time they sit here and spout off stuff like this.

Either its in there and legal or its not. Congress has the power to raise and maintain an army and is granted all powers necessary and proper to do so. The draft is LEGAL.

I don't want to get my ass shot off in some foreign land any more than the next guy. But thats not the point. As an american citizen I have made an agreement. I agree to delegate my decision making to certian representatives. I agree to follow the laws that are made by these representatives providing they are within the confines of the constitution. By doing this I have waived my right to pick and choose which laws I follow.

Those that advocate dodging are 1) not being honest ins so much that they are probably cowards and 2) are pissing on the constitution. Its just that simple. As far as the draft being slavery, its not. If you don't want to subject yourself to possibility of being drafted, then leave. Its your choice. I doubt you will find a place any better, but the option is yours. Slaves simply don't have any choice.

Taking this in perspective, do I think the draft is a good thing, probably not. A volunteer army will always be better in a number of ways. However the draft is and should be an option where the defense of our nation is concerned.
 
Bravado about courage and honor is nice, until you're shot in the head.
Notions of liberty and freedom are nice, until your country is conquered and enslaved.

We could go back and forth like that all day, and never make a reasonable argument for either position.
 
There's nothing patriotic or noble about going over to Iraq and stepping into the middle of a religious power struggle that we only got into as a form of "oil colonialism" and defense contractor subsidies.
Unless you're doing what your country asks of you. The concept of the draft is not made wrong or right by temporary conflicts and what we think of them.
 
I think perhaps the populace wouldn't mind the idea of a draft so much if they weren't fully aware that many of the current administration and their loudest supporters all got deferments (even five deferments) or otherwise got out of the last one due to money and family connections.
 
Oh, and for those saying that the draft is exclusively a part of being an American citizen...
Forgive me if I don't comb the whole thread here, but who said that ?


I guess naturalized citizens are bound by this oath. As a born citizen I never took it, neither did most Americans.
If you don't wish to fulfill the same duties as other citizens, why are you still living in the US?
 
We are talking about a country which has managed that most difficult of political maneuvers: devolving power down to its people, rather than concentrating political power permanently in the hands of a ruling class or individual.

And, in my lifetime, this has now gone in the opposite direction.

At some point in the future of this nation, there will come a time when we, as citizens of this wonderful nation, may be forced to send our sons and daughters to fight against implacable foes, to preserve what we have.

That's right and considering our jet-around-suburbia-minivan culture needs
cheap foreign resources (I know it's verbotten to mention the O word) to
continue the "everlasting" credit bubble spending spree, some of those
sons and daughters will have to die so the bread and circus can continue
in their hometown coliseum. Yes, let's not make the hard choices now like
conservation and even rationing. Without taking strong internal measures
today, we will end up with conflict. What we are seeing overseas right now
is only the beginning. It will be worse if we continue down this road.

Sorry, but you don’t get to make that choice. The nation, We The People, through our elected government, gets to make that choice, and that’s the beginning and the end of it.

"our elected government"? You mean the one where my reps are bought off
by whoever can write the biggest check? Can you say cronyism and
patronage?

Slavery is ok if it is for a good cause...

Sad but True. It depends on what the public perceives at that point in
history and how it relates to their own comfort. This is why at one time
it was considered "ok" to enslave African-Americans and send Native
Americans on forced marches where many died in this country. There is still
a class of people in this country that it is considered ok to kill without
breaking man's laws to the tune of approximately 1.6 million/year.

Only as needed to protect our HOME SOIL from anyone attacking it directly,

There would be no shortage of volunteers to actually defend this country
if it came down to their homes being torched and their wives and daughters
raped. There is always a large amount of collective self-interest that can
be tapped at those times.

Why do you guys hate the Constitution and representative government?

This is akin to saying "You're either with us or against us."

As a recent OIF Vet and having seen what has transpired over the past
year, I have absolutely no difficulty saying with great confidence that
our government no longer follows the Constitution and is no longer
representative of the legal citizens within its borders. This is exactly
what happened prior to our founding Revolution when the King of England
cr@pped on his citizens in the colonies. Whoops....they were called
subjects and servants back then. At least today we maintain the name
of citizen as we are moved back to serf.

The draft is slavery. If not enough people are willing to join the military voluntarily, fine, let the country be conquered.

I can understand the frustration that spawns this statement and certainly
the counter-statements to it that the alternative of being conquered would
be worse. All I can say is study Roman history and be honest about
where this country is currently and how it has arrived here.

Like it or not, the social contract of this country provides that you have delegated the decisions to whether a war is just or not, to your political representatives.

Delegated? Please.....They've been stolen and bought off. All I have to
see is who is the member of which corporate boards among the rotating
apparatchniks both in the agency/cabninet beaurocracies and the political
parties to know that the social contract has been used like toilet paper.
It's been broken. To say otherwise is completely naive.

Sorry, to sound negative, but the truth hurts and when the two by four of
reality finally hits you in the face, you'll know it. From what I've read
there are still a lot of people here who have been ducking that swing by
sticking their heads in the sand.

Let's be honest about what this country has become and that it will take
conscription to maintain it. It's about comfort and enterntainment and like
ancient Rome, it will take ruthless internal measures and external conquests
to fuel it. That means those of you who haven't volunteered in the armed
forces to sustain it should not be surprised when your children are drafted
in the not too distant future. Study your history: every empire must do
this to survive and the US will be no different if it wants to be an empire
as well. Either we do that, or we limit ourselves like other countries
such as.....hmmmm.......Switzerland.

A draft will happen again. Don't doubt it for a second and unless you're one
of the privileged families in this country who have over the last few
decades squirmed out of overseas service when "their nation called upon
them", your kids will go or there will be a consequence for them. The
State will come into your home and enforce it with them.

Again, study Roman history (Ottoman and Habsburg are good, too). At one
time, the "noble" families of all those empires use to personally lead their
troops into battle and suffered along with them. We can't say that about
America today, or since Korea, can we? This is a hallmark of empires and
their internal dynastic families.

Some will take my writing here as somehow anti-American. Absolutely not.
My family fought in the Revolution and our obscure name is part of its history
from coast to coast. We were even West of the Mississippi before Lewis
and Clark started their expedition. My point is, let's be honest with
each other about what we have right now. Be an adult and understand
that there will be blood on your hands or those of your children if we are to
have an Empire rather than a Republic.
 
Sad thread, comparing slavery to the draft is like a whining teenager.
The draft is needed now more then ever and if the US is to stay a
super power the draft will be reinstated. Those of you who fear discipline
perhaps you will miss it.:rolleyes:
 
I'd be fine with it if I wasn't sure that the scions of the wealthy and powerful would most certainly be weaseling out of it, as their parents pull strings to keep their little darlings out of harm's way.
 
The draft is needed now more then ever and if the US is to stay a
super power the draft will be reinstated.

Wingman, thanks for reminding me that we don't say "empire" anymore since
"empire" has often been associated with "evil" (which is not always accurate).

We are suppose to say superpower in Newspeak rather than empire.

Sorry, must've put that memo down the memory hole by accident. :p
 
Maybe you'd like to explain what you see as the difference between slavery and coscription.

Well let's see:

If two slaves have a baby, the baby is also a slave. If two conscripts have a baby, not only would it not be a conscript, but the mother would be assigned shore duty or discharged.

Slaves can be bought and sold. No U.S. conscript has ever been sold to another country, or purchased from another country.

Slavery is for life. Conscription is until services are no longer required.

Rebellious slaves are normally killed, like rabid animals. Conscripts may still be conscientious objectors, just like the volunteers.

If you don't think that it's right for the big bad government to draft people to serve our country, you're entitled to your opinion. The founding fathers disagreed, and so do I, but you're entitled to your own opinion. But to say military conscription is slavery is just ignorant, and belittling to survivors of slavery.

That being said, I think the era of conscript armies is behind us. Not only is the time it takes to train to use modern weapon systems prohibitive, but any random draft would also bring in a majority of unsuitable candidates.
 
That being said, I think the era of conscript armies is behind us.

Don't hold your breath on that one.

Also, let's not miss the fact that there are two similarities between
slaves and conscripts: both can be shot for simply running away.

Again, some cliff notes history that is relevant to slaves, conscripts
and their change in status over time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissaries

Cool...and it's from the Ottoman Empire.
 
The Paris peace accords were signed in February 1973 a month before my nineteenth birthday. 15 months later, i enlisted in the US Army Reserves. Not to avoid the draft for there was no draft.

Robert Heinlein was a graduate of Annapolis who maintained a reserve commission in the US Navy until his death. In earlier years he served on the local draft board. He was also a Democrat during this period of his life. Later on, he left the Democratic Party. About the same time he resigned from serving on the draft board.

His later stand on conscription was one derived from long thought, experience, and observation.

I stand with Heinlein in this matter.

The government doesn't have to draft non-military workers for a simple reason: in the free market for workers it competes with other employers and offers pay and benefits that are competitive. The Army has met its recruiting goal for 2006 by competing better. There's not but two reasons the military will not reach its recruiting goals in wartime-either the US is in a war that doesn't make sense to the citizens of military age or it is not offering adequate pay and benefits. Fish or cut bait.

Involuntary servitude is slavery. Heinlein in one of his essays on conscription described a Russian painting. A winter scene with heavy snow and a sleigh being chased by wolves. The occupants of the sleigh were tossing unfortunate companions out to the wolves one by one to slow down the wolves while lightening the sleigh. That's the morality of conscription. I do not own you or your children.

There were still draftees in the military when I enlisted. Judging by the attitudes I saw...I wouldn't want my flanks dependent on those troops...I'd be better served with no troops on my flanks than those troops.

The following is draftee graffiti on a Fort Jackson latrine at one of the rifle ranges during the summer of 1974:

"We are the unwilling,
Led by the incompetent,
to do the unnecessary,
for the ungrateful."

If you knew you were going into combat supported by troops with that attitude...what would your morale be?
 
Quote:
I wouldn't care if the Constitution specifically allowed the government to conscript soldiers, I would still do everything in my power to escape its grasp


Translated to read: I'm going to reap the benefits of everything this country has to offer but if it ever comes time to pay up, I'm out of here.

I love it how people will sit here and scream till they are red in the face about how liberals are reading the 2nd amendment out of the constitution, but at the same time they sit here and spout off stuff like this.

Either its in there and legal or its not. Congress has the power to raise and maintain an army and is granted all powers necessary and proper to do so. The draft is LEGAL.

I don't want to get my ass shot off in some foreign land any more than the next guy. But thats not the point. As an american citizen I have made an agreement. I agree to delegate my decision making to certian representatives. I agree to follow the laws that are made by these representatives providing they are within the confines of the constitution. By doing this I have waived my right to pick and choose which laws I follow.

Those that advocate dodging are 1) not being honest ins so much that they are probably cowards and 2) are pissing on the constitution. Its just that simple. As far as the draft being slavery, its not. If you don't want to subject yourself to possibility of being drafted, then leave. Its your choice. I doubt you will find a place any better, but the option is yours. Slaves simply don't have any choice.

Taking this in perspective, do I think the draft is a good thing, probably not. A volunteer army will always be better in a number of ways. However the draft is and should be an option where the defense of our nation is concerned.
Amen Brother!!
 
Here is something "ignorant and belittling" from that "whining teenager", Ron Paul:


Conscription Is Slavery
Rep. Ron Paul (R-TX)
January 14, 2003

Two Democratic Congressman introduced legislation last week to revive the military draft, taking a race-baiting shot at the President and his war plans. Their idea is not new, however, as similar proposals were introduced by Republicans in the months following September 11th. Although the administration is not calling for a draft at this time, last week's controversy shows while conscription has been buried for 30 years, the idea is not necessarily dead.

Neither the Pentagon nor our military leaders want a draft. In fact, a Department of Defense report stated that draft registration could be eliminated "with no effect on military mobilization and no measurable effect on military recruitment." Today's military is more high tech and specialized than ever before, and an educated volunteer force is required to operate our modern Army, Navy, and Air Force. Most military experts believe a draft would actually impair military readiness, despite the increase in raw manpower, because of training and morale problems.

So why is the idea of a draft even considered? One answer is that our military forces are spread far too thin, engaged in conflicts around the globe that are none of our business. With hundreds of thousands of troops already stationed in literally hundreds of foreign nations, we simply don't have enough soldiers to invade and occupy every country we label a threat to the new American empire. Military leaders conservatively estimate that 250,000 troops will be needed to invade Iraq, while tens of thousands already occupy Afghanistan. Add another conflict to the mix- in North Korea, the Balkans, or any number of hot spots- and our military capabilities would quickly be exhausted. Some in Washington would rather draft more young bodies than rethink our role as world policeman and bring some of our troops home.

Military needs aside, however, some politicians simply love the thought of mandatory service to the state. To them, the American government is America. Patriotism means working for the benefit of the state. On a crude level, the draft appeals to patriotic fervor. This is why the idea of compulsory national service, whether in the form of military conscription or make-work programs like AmeriCorps, still sells on Capitol Hill. Conscription is wrongly associated with patriotism, when it really represents Slavery and involuntary servitude.

I believe wholeheartedly that an all-volunteer military is not only sufficient for national defense, but preferable. It is time to abolish the Selective Service System and consign military conscription to the dustbin of American history. 500 million dollars have been wasted on the Selective Service System since 1979, money that could have been returned to taxpayers or spent to improve the lives of our nation's veterans.

Ronald Reagan said it best: "The most fundamental objection to draft registration is moral." He understood that conscription assumes our nation's young people belong to the state. Yet America was founded on the opposite principle, that the state exists to serve the individual. The notion of involuntary servitude, in whatever form, is simply incompatible with a free society.

Ron Paul, M.D., represents the 14th Congressional District of Texas in the United States House of Representatives.

http://www.antiwar.com/paul/paul60.html
 
Back in the old days they had the state militias. Every able bodied man was in the militia. The militia was sometimes called up for duty by the Feds. Most people then would think it very shameful and cowardly to avoid duty in the militia.

Personally, I like the idea of universal military service/training. However, I would prefer it be in the form of state militias rather than service in the federal military.

The only way I see a draft being brought back any time soon is if Democrats take power back in Congress. They would do it for "equality" or "diversity" reasons. Democrats in Congress are the only ones introducing legislation to bring back the draft in this day and time.

I really can't believe I saw someone bitch that jury duty was akin to slavery.. Of all the stupid things to say, that has to be beat all. Civic responsibility is nothing to sneer at. The lack of civic responsibility by a lot of people is why we end up with power hungry crooks in charge of our govt.
 
I agree to follow the laws that are made by these representatives providing they are within the confines of the constitution.

Amen brother!

Yes, Amen, Brother, when that Consitution is being followed:

Section 8 - Powers of Congress
....
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

Darn that pesky two year rule! But, who's following it anymore anyway?
After all the Founding Fathers put it in there to get in the way of building
our empire
, oops, global superpower. ;)

Come on, guys, let's be honest about what we are while we're all hanging
out in the Wolf Den this morning. Quit couching your language in lamb's wool.
 
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