When did we start taxing people's private land?

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I've always wondered about this. At what point in our nation's history did the taxing of private land start? Seems to me that it is very much contrary to the spirit of the Founders. Seems to go contrary to the right of property as a bulwark against tyranny, which was a big issue for the Founders. Have we always had to pay yearly taxes to our local governments based on the land we own? I could understand charging a tax at the point of sale, similar to a sales tax, but once purchased, how does the government claim any right to yearly payments based on the land's theoretical value whether or not you are profiting from that theoretical value? That makes it seem like you are renting the land from the government, rather than it being privately owned. Again, I can understand if you are making a profit from your land being taxed on the profit, but I am talking about just owning a hundred acres or so (or a thousand, or ten) somewhere, and keeping it for private use, i.e., not mining or manufacturing or anything like that on it. Anyone know the history? How was it justified, other than the obvious, i.e., that it supported government benefits such as police and fire departments, etc. Those would justify taxing income, but not a yearly rent payment to keep government from taking your land. My thought is that it must have started when non-landowners were given the vote. The first thing they voted for was probably charging land owners to keep their land. Just a speculation, though. I just never learned the history of it.
 
Property taxes predate the revolution in America and have their roots in medieval English practices, FWIW
Thanks. I knew that was the case, but I just figured that was before governments were forced to respect the right of the people to own property. You see, in the old days all the land was thought to actually belong to the king. If you lived on his land, you had to pay him for the privilege, unless you were a friend or family of the king. The Founders, though, sort of rejected the whole notion that the land belongs to the monarch. They kicked him out. Land could be privately owned after that. Seems unlikely that they would have just mindlessly adopted the practice which was based on the idea that all the land belonged to the king. See my point?
 
AFAIK, the founders didn't put a stop to property taxes, and certainly not as a widescale act.

And they didn't really get rid of the idea that the king ultimately owns all property. That's what eminent domain is all about. "The king" simply got changed to "the government."
 
Yes, in the last few minutes, I've been doing some googling for answers, and it appears that you are correct. It seems that this whole idea just never occurred to them. I have to wonder what value there really is in private property as a bulwark against tyranny. As some dead white guy once said, the power to tax is the power to destroy. That being the case, no one really has any right to own land free and clear. It has always been a myth, I guess.
 
So, I guess it is not really possible to just be a homesteader, i.e., live independently on your own land, as you would need to either make the land profitable in some way (farming, selling timber, mining) or you'd need to find some other way to pay government rent on the land that you hold the deed to. Just being self-sufficient is not profitable in itself, so eventually they'd come with guns and take your land from you if you just lived independently on your own land.
 
The problem faced by the founders, however, is that even they recognized the need for government, and by extension, the need for funding. The question is what source the money comes from.

Tariffs worked well for a small federal government, but were not a legal source of income to states. Where does a state get money?

While you can certainly argue that property tax is unjust, insofar as it undermines the very concept of ownership, you can make much the same case about any compulsory tax. After all, the fact that government can compel you to part with any of your wealth undermines the very concept of it being your wealth.

Unfortunately, voluntary donations were not then (and certainly aren't now, in our era of omnipresent and grossly bloated government) an adequate source of government funding.
 
Well, property is not a myth. It's just not 100% pure. Certainly, we've got 216 years under this Constitution with property rights being fairly well protected.

Remember, "the government" = "for the people, by the people, of the people." That concept builds in better protections that "the king," which has zero protections against whim and misuse (unless the king deigns to allow such protection).

The protections aren't perfect. They certainly can be eroded (as recently happened up in Connecticut). But they're better than in a monarchy where "the goverment" and "the people" are separate entities.
 
So, I guess it is not really possible to just be a homesteader, i.e., live independently on your own land, as you would need to either make the land profitable in some way (farming, selling timber, mining) or you'd need to find some other way to pay government rent on the land that you hold the deed to. Just being self-sufficient is not profitable in itself, so eventually they'd come with guns and take your land from you if you just lived independently on your own land.
No, it isn't.

But then, it's not as though you're not taking advantage of government services, either. Primarily the one thing government really is supposed to do: defend the land from foreign invaders. It is not fundamentally illegitimate to expect a landowner to contribute money towards the very system which allows him to own land without having to personally own an army to defend it.

Obviously, in the modern day, your money gets seized and used in hundreds or thousands of illegitimate ways which we can quite fairly condemn as wrong. But the underlying idea, that citizens of a country collectively contribute to the defense of the country via a government, is not illegitimate. Ultimately, in fact, it's the whole basis of having a state at all.
 
No, it isn't.

But then, it's not as though you're not taking advantage of government services, either. Primarily the one thing government really is supposed to do: defend the land from foreign invaders. It is not fundamentally illegitimate to expect a landowner to contribute money towards the very system which allows him to own land without having to personally own an army to defend it.

Obviously, in the modern day, your money gets seized and used in hundreds or thousands of illegitimate ways which we can quite fairly condemn as wrong. But the underlying idea, that citizens of a country collectively contribute to the defense of the country via a government, is not illegitimate. Ultimately, in fact, it's the whole basis of having a state at all.
Been doing more googling. Seems that the early concept of tax on land was not actually a tax on the land, but on the ability of the owner to pay the tax, of which the land was considered a good estimate. If you owned lots of land, it was assumed that you could afford to pay more to support the activities of the king.

Regarding what you said, I guess there is an argument to be made that taxing simple land ownership does have some benefits besides just supporting the government. For example, if there was no property tax, there would be less motivation to be productive. If you could just sit back and live off the "fat of the land," many people would do so. But if you must produce x amount of tax yearly, you are motivated to make the land productive, e.g., rent out a plot or two to farmers, or rent out a plot or two to lumberjacks, or maybe charge people to hunt and camp on the land. This benefits the community in general. So, there is an up side to this issue as well, I think, so long as property taxes are held down in some substantial and concrete way. Otherwise, I think it has the potential of severe abuse.
 
are you guys kidding or what?
if the govt does anything worth collecting taxes over, it PROtECTS YOUR PROPERTY/
what do you think all those bombs and tanks and soldiers are for?

i don't equate govt being able to charge a tax on protecting my land as a tyrannical overtaking of my property, i call it - well , protection money i guess.
but the truth is - do we really want to defend our homes against 1 billion chinese etc by ourselves?
 
First, the “bulwark” had fallen quite a while ago. The extend of government powers is not limited – there is no aspect of individual’s life where government intervention is legally out of bounds.
Property rights, freedom of association, freedom of contract, family, parenting, speech and thought – you have only as much of those as the government allows you. What’s worst, most of the sheople would not even believe anything is wrong with it since you have a right to vote for someone or other.

Now to the taxing scheme. Taxing landowners (or owners of capital in general) makes a lot of sense – as long as the voting is also restricted to the same people as it used to be.
The owners of the capital are the people most interested in long-term increase of capital value of the country, so to speak – since they own it and benefit from the gains or suffer from the losses.
Such people are not inclined to increase the current consumption at the expense of capital exhaustion like modern politicians and mass voters do. There is a very good reason while democracies always destroy the societies they afflict.


You see, in the old days all the land was thought to actually belong to the king.

Not true. Kings in western societies were landowners, just like any other people. Their power to tax came from other sources. In fact, in England it was not the crown but the parliament that had most of the power to tax – and the courts were known to upheld the tax disputes against the kings.

Sure, kings always tried to usurp more powers - and were successfully resisted. Only when the government allied with masses against independent landowners/nobles that the balance of powers was broken and monopoly established. Modern concept of State did not even exist in the West untill well into 17 century.


Just being self-sufficient is not profitable in itself, so eventually they'd come with guns and take your land from you if you just lived independently on your own land.

All property taxes in this country are local. If you homestead outside of an incorporated municiplality – or create/incorporate a municipality that would not levy property taxes. On the other hand federal courts were known to force the municipalities to impose taxes to provide public education – which is now supposedly some kind of a universal “right”.

Anyway, you are living under an unlimited government – government being a geographic monopoly on violence, though US actually claims jurisdiction and taxing powers over people even outside its borders – so if you have something that the government wants, be it money, cannon fodder or example for others, you are screwed.


But the underlying idea, that citizens of a country collectively contribute to the defense of the country via a government, is not illegitimate.

What if I do not care to defend myself against whatever you are afraid of? You are saying you are justified to invade, rob and kidnap me now (and kill me if I resist) in order to provide my protection against Kaiser Wilhelm or Martians crossing the ocean and invading me in some hypothetical future? Yeah, right.

Government grabs our stuff because it is monopoly on violence, period. It may ignore invasion by millions of illegal aliens or commit aggression against countries that could not possibly threaten us and still tax as much as it wants. It may confiscate our weapons, grass, gold, houses, income or children. Because it can.
Just cut the crap about “collectively contribute” utopian fantasy. What’s the point of moralizing if the armed goons are going to force or kill me if I do not agree with you in the end?

miko
 
Regarding taxes, what then about Federal Income taxes?

And I didn't think property taxes went to the Fed, but was a state\county thing.
 
I agree with Miko in the sense that originally in this nation it was only the property owners who could vote, in which case it was perfectly consistent with liberty and property rights to allow for local government funding via property taxes. There was a natural check to government excess back then. The people being taxed on their property were the only ones who could vote to raise or lower property taxes. With universal suffrage, the poor and propertyless are highly motivated to tax to the hilt to support the maximum degree of public projects and handouts at the expense of the minority. Usually, when you find something that doesn't work in our present day American, you can look back and see that the reason it doesn't work is because the original system has been altered in some major way. This is no exception, I think.


As for someone's point about supporting the US military with property taxes, this is not possible, as property taxes do not go to supporting the US military.
 
Its a long standing precedent that all property essentially belongs to the government. Remember the Westward Expansion? All those nice tracts of land that noone had ever set foot on, guess who you had to BUY them from.
 
Seems to me this whole discussion is a pretty good example of why you shouldn't let the county know when you build on your land. What they don't know about, they can't tax. ;)

Personally, I would jump at the chance to give up my vote in exchange for not being taxed.

As a side note, my great-grandfather often paid his property taxes by doing work for his county of residence. He was fairly skilled in mortarless stonework...I'm told that there are still a handful of his drainage culverts in Kansas still in use.

Miko - I believe that every county in the country has a property tax. Since there is no land not claimed by one county of another, there's no place to go to legally sidestep property tax.
 
Personally, I would jump at the chance to give up my vote in exchange for not being taxed.

Unlike voting in a voluntarily-formed entity such as private partnership, political vote is your chance to use the coercive power of the state to violate rights of other people and your endorcement of such an arrangement. There are precious few cases where you can vote against some growing infringement while not at the same time voting for more of the other infringements. Outside of California and similar referendums on specific propositions, I can't think of any.

So you should give up your vote(ing) just to stay a moral person. You may not be able to resist opression by democratic majority but you do not have to join them.
Of course if people who do not care to be slaves/opressors were the majority, voting would make sense but then, there would not eb any need for it, would it?


Miko - I believe that every county in the country has a property tax. Since there is no land not claimed by one county of another, there's no place to go to legally sidestep property tax.

What about gathering enough people to become a majority in some county?
 
Miko,

As a matter of fact, I don't vote. All the more reason to swap it for something useful. :)

As for getting a majority together and ending a county's property tax, I wouldn't bet on it ever happening. The FSP is the closest thing to that I know of, and they're failing.
 
Ian said:
As for getting a majority together and ending a county's property tax, I wouldn't bet on it ever happening. The FSP is the closest thing to that I know of, and they're failing.

"Ever" is a bit too strong. The natural principles of human action - call it laws of sociology/politics/economics - determine/explain while the FSP is failing. Similar principles pretty much ensure that societies like our democratic paradize self-destruct. For those suspicious of theory, history presents many examples.

You will likely see this one crumble sooner than you think and there may be opportunities to build better ones on the ruins.

miko
 
Miko - I believe that every county in the country has a property tax. Since there is no land not claimed by one county of another, there's no place to go to legally sidestep property tax.


Not true. A good chunk of alaska is not incorporated into boroughs. (we don't have counties up here).

Folks outside the boroughs pay no property tax.
 
And I didn't think property taxes went to the Fed, but was a state\county thing.

Which seems to counter the argument that property taxes are some sort of "freedom from invasion" tax. Logan County has no standing army I am aware of...
 
The tradition is ancient, but I wish we could break it. What do you think the real in real estate or real property means?

~G. Fink
 
Yes, I'd love to see property taxes revoked. I'm so upset to see people who lived in a house for 20+ years being forced to see because they can't pay the taxes. Something's wrong, BIG TIME. :fire:
 
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