When does this madness end?

[gamestalker]

That rem 700 chambered in 300 win. mag is acting up again. But this time we have solved it real quick and in a hurry. It went from shooting beautiful 1.2"-ish groups at 100 yds. to unpredictable POI's all over the place, again. The difference this time is we had eliminated all possible variables already, and the rifle has been shooting consistently and tight for a while, so it was obvious the optic had failed. Swapped the optic out with another, and the rifle went right back to shooting nice tight groups, for how long, I can't even guess.

Muzzle brakes on heavy recoiling rifles can come with a price. Depending on the internal lens system / design, in other words how the lenses are secured internally, a significant degree of reverse inertia can have the same effect, but to a greater degree, as that of an air rifle.

Having had so many variables to consider with this problem child 300 win mag., I certainly considered this phenomena right from the get go, as it turns out, my concerns were apparently legitimate and with merit.

Now I just need to find an optic that is built to withstand long term reverse inertia created by the brake. So far the Zeiss is doing fine, but so was the Vortex Viper 4x16x44 for a while. I've consulted with several professionals that have been very helpful, at least to the extent that they have personally seen this happen with braked rifles, especially heavy recoiling chamberings.

But what I'm not learning, is which optics are designed to withstand both types of significant inertia, that being the conventional recoil of a non braked rifle, and reverse, such as that experienced with air rifles, and of course braked rifles.

Any help would be appreciated, as we need to know what to put on this 300 win. mag. for the rest of it's miserable life.

GS

Sorry, I accidentally put this in the wrong forum. Feel free to move it to where ever it might be best suited.

 

[Blue68f100]

I shook the guts loose in a Bushnell on my Rem 7mm Mag. They replaced it under warranty and I did it again to the replacement. Some scopes are just not built for heavy recoil. I moved up to a Leopold VXIII and have not had a problem since. It's held zero for 35+ yrs now. Have no idea o how it will work with a brake though.

 

[buck460XVR]

I've found most manufacturers have contact pages on their websites and are very good about giving good replies to "which product" questions, especially when one is specific about their needs. Sometimes you have to go beyond the initial contact to get the answer you seek, but it seems any of the reputable scope makers could tell you which of their scopes will stand up under the recoil of a heavy recoiling braked rifle. If not, you have documentation you were steered wrong when you return the item for warranty.

 

[murf]

have you tried a one-piece base?


murf

 

[spitballer]

Rifle scopes are like cigars: you get what you pay for. My Leupold Vx4 is smooth as a Macanudo, but I've got my eye on a Nightforce...

 

[gamestalker]

So far, I haven't received any response from Vortex or Leupold, but then again it's only Monday. But in the mean time I have been doing a lot of research and have found that most scopes, even some of the top shelf products aren't designed to endure the dual recoil effect of a muzzle brake on a light weight rifle magnum rig. Apparently, this isn't unheard of, but rather some what common with the right, or rather, wrong combination of elements.

I have no doubt we'll solve the problem, it's really just a matter of learning which scopes are capable by design, of handling the task. From what I'm understanding, single leaf spring design is the most common used for scopes, which seems to be the apparent culprit. Unfortunately, Swarovski is one of those which uses a much better design noted for being capable to withstand the dual recoil muzzle brake syndrome. But I've also found that there are a number of Leupold scopes that are also up to this task, though probably still rather expensive, it may be the only semi reasonable option.

Which brings me to you guys. If anyone here has an in depth knowledge regarding scope designs, I sure would appreciate knowing which of the manufacturers, and which models are up to this task. All I have is a very bare minimum of understanding in this respect, most of which is very recently obtained, so I would very much like to avoid any further hiccups with this rifle, I'm tired.

GS

 

[ironworkerwill]

Airgun Scope

They are made to take recoil forward and rear. I assume you don't want a BSA or Barska, I wouldn't. It may be an avenue to look into. Good luck.

 

[docsleepy]

How many rounds did the scope last?

 

[gamestalker]

I don't know, like maybe 30 or 40 rounds before it stopped holding zero. at this point, I have contacted Leupold and Vortex inquiring about models they offer that are dual recoil protected, hoping I'll hear something soon.

GS

 

[41 Mag]

While I know the prices on them is a bit exciting to say the least, you should look into the Nightforce line. They have been sitting them atop plenty of harder recoiling rifles than what your shooting for a pretty good while now and have a great reputation. You most certainly get what you pay for and a little more IMO.

My friend has had one of their 3.5-15's mounted atop a braked factory Sendero in 300 RUM, and has had no issues with it for the past 8-9 years of use, and plenty of rounds downrange. They are built like tanks.

You should at least contact them and see what they say about your situation.

 

[buck460XVR]

, I have contacted Leupold and Vortex inquiring about models they offer that are dual recoil protected, hoping I'll hear something soon.

GS

Odds are they will reply with some sound suggestions. Big boomers with brakes is not a new phenomenon. Any big name scope manufacturer should have experience with and models for them.

 

[Speedster00]

Are you interested in a fixed power? The SWFA fixed 10x,16, and 20x, are extremely robust and are 50 cal rated. Ive shot them a few times and they are very nice for $299

 

[grubbylabs]

This is interesting, and something to consider. I am thinking about having a removable break put on my 300 win

 

[coloradokevin]

I don't know if you've heard from them yet, but Vortex is supposed to have great customer service, and is said to really stand by their products. I imagine they'll get you another scope if the one they sold you has failed.

While this may sound obvious, have you double checked your scope rings and mount for proper torque? This is an issue that has plagued many shooters, and has often been mistaken for a bad scope. I always put a torque wrench to my rings/bases to make sure they are as tight as they are supposed to be, and I also make some "index marks" between the scope and the rings with pencil to help me spot any movement that might have occurred.

My friend had this problem even using good rings and a very expensive scope. It seemed like things were torqued correctly, but he did it by feel rather than in-lbs… drove him crazy for a couple of range trips until he discovered that a loose ring was really the cause of his issues.

Incidentally, I've never heard of a muzzle brake causing a failure to any kind of decent scope. It redirects gasses from the rifle to reduce recoil, but it isn't like it jerks the rifle forward upon firing.

have you tried a one-piece base?

I really think a quality one-piece base does wonders for mounting security in many applications. It's too expensive for the scopes we're discussing in this thread, but I use a Spuhr mount for my high-end glass. That thing has never come loose. But, you pay for that quality, too.

 

[gamestalker]

" but it isn't like it jerks the rifle forward upon firing"

Actually Coloradokevin, this rifle jumps forward off the lead sled, so much so that trying to grab it before it jumps off the bench has been challenging. I'm telling ya, this thing is violently lurching forward. It hasn't hit the ground yet, but there have been multiple very close calls, even when firmly holding the stock, which is an absolute necessity considering.

As for the rings and bases, they are solid. One of the first things I did was make index marks to check for movement, it isn't budging.

I got a couple of responses from esteemed builders / smiths and also from Vortex. The Vortex tech has been awesome. he actually ran down my scope in the complex and then mounted it on his own personal braked 300 WM and said it shot perfectly. He confirmed that the scope in question does in fact have dual directional secured lenses. But again, this is on his rig, and not off a lead sled, which is where the rest of this story seems to be leading now.

Now, a really good builder / smith I know has consulted with me and suggested, that the lead sled can cause these types of problems, and worse. He has seen stocks fractured by sleds, and very high end scopes broken by them, and also this specific syndrome with braked rifles off sleds. Sleds apparently amplify the effect according to him. He seems quite certain that if we shoot the new scope from bags, rather than the sled, that the problem will go away. We'll see, at this point I am open to most any suggestions, including and not limited to, lighter fluid and a match!

As soon as we get the scope back, we'll have it back out at the range, I'll report back with the results.

GS

 

[coloradokevin]

Actually Coloradokevin, this rifle jumps forward off the lead sled, so much so that trying to grab it before it jumps off the bench has been challenging. I'm telling ya, this thing is violently lurching forward. It hasn't hit the ground yet, but there have been multiple very close calls, even when firmly holding the stock, which is an absolute necessity considering.

Wow. That's something I'd kind of like to see! I've never heard of a brake working well enough to pull the rifle forward.

The brake on my .260 certainly provides a noticeable reduction in rifle recoil, but the movement is still entirely rearward.

Glad the folks at Vortex have been working with you on this issue!