When is a squib not a squib?

[Hondo 60]

I had a 44mag round act very strangely, strangely indeed!

Rather than the resounding BOOM, it very meekly went .. pop.

My first thought was a squib.
Sure enough the bullet left the case just enough to jam up the works. :banghead:

I used a dowel, & gently pounded it back in the case & stuffed it in my pocket.
When I got home I used a kinetic hammer to remove the bullet.

Lo & behold, when I opened the hammer a bunch of unburned powder (not 1/2 burned, but completely unburned) fell out with the bullet!?!?!?
The powder looked exactly like the stuff in the original bottle.

So, I hadn't created a squib.

This makes no sense to me.
I didn't weigh the powder that was in the hammer, it spilled all over, (I wasn't expecting powder) so it may or may not have been the full 8 gr of Universal.
But there was quite a bit.

240gr Berry's FP, Starline Case, S&B LP primer, OAL 1.605

 

[Shaq]

Several things could cause this. What type of loader do you use? Single Stage? Progressive? Powder Storage - consistent temp? Possible contaminated powder? Old powder? Recommended primer in manual used to provide sufficient spark for ignition? Sufficient crimp on bullet = more complete burning of powder.

Re: Berry's Flat Point: Plated bullet? Should not use light loads for plated or jacketed bullet - minimum of "Medium" loads as recommended by Berry's. There is more friction in the barrel with a jacketed or plated bullet than a cast lead bullet. Light loads with jacketed/plated bullets can cause a stuck bullet.

I also load Berry's 240 Gr. FP in my Marlin 44 carbine, but I keep velocities around 1,100 fps. to make sure bullets clear barrel - especially longer 20" barrel of rifle.

 

[TimSr]

This is exactly what a squib is. Primer ignited, but powder did not. This is a more common problem with 296/110 powders usually from a combination of insufficient charge, insufficient primer, insufficient crimp, contaminated powder charge... I've not used Universal, and would think it harder to achieve this malfunction, but probably a similar cause.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I don't know what your definition of a squib load is but you described a classic squib load in your OP.

 

[Haxby]

Maybe a plugged flash hole.

 

[ReloaderFred]

If you load long enough, and produce enough rounds, you'll run into all kinds of unexplainable happenstances.

You had a squib, but determining the cause would require examining the components (evidence of the crime), and since they're not available, any speculation is just that, speculation.

I've seen spiders build nests in brass, bugs make homes from them, etc. The components were right, but a thick spider web blocked the flame from the primer from igniting the powder. I'm not saying that happened in your case, but it did in a friend's case.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[Rule3]

The NRA official definition is "a under powered load" (or similar) A squib does not have to actually stick in a barrel. I know that doesn't help, but a squib is a squib.

Stuff happens.

 

[243winxb]

Light neck tension. Primer fired moving bullet to soon. No pressure build , or increase for a good burn . Bullet jumping crimp. TEST - fill cylinder , fire all, except for last remaining round. Has the OAL gotten longer?? Stop using the Lee Factory Crimp die, it may post size the loaded rounds. .

 

[mdi]

I think "squib" is a generic term for exactly what happened to you. Primer worked and nuttin' else did. No powder, not enough powder, wrong powder, wrong primer, weak/poor primer, etc. are reasons for a squib. Ifin' it goes pop, but not bang, it be a squib...

 

[jmorris]

A squib is not a squib as soon as the bullet exits the barrel. If it stops anywhere inside or even stuck sticking out the end, it's a squib.

 

[243winxb]

SAAMI - SQUIB -Definitions

LOAD, SQUIB
A cartridge or shell which produces projectile velocity and sound substantially lower than normal. May result in projectile and/or wads remaining in the bore.

 

[Shaq]

If you load long enough, and produce enough rounds, you'll run into all kinds of unexplainable happenstances.

You had a squib, but determining the cause would require examining the components (evidence of the crime), and since they're not available, any speculation is just that, speculation.

I've seen spiders build nests in brass, bugs make homes from them, etc. The components were right, but a thick spider web blocked the flame from the primer from igniting the powder. I'm not saying that happened in your case, but it did in a friend's case.

Hope this helps.

Fred

That's sorta like saying "If you shoot enough, you'll have an ND or AD." I've been loading45 years & never had a squib or any other issue. Probably because I don't use a progressive & I check each powder charge before seating bullets.
"Spiders & bugs in brass?" Well....yeah...if you powder charge cases, then leave them sitting uncovered for a few days or weeks, I guess that's possible. There are clear plastic covers that fit over loading trays that prevent that, but I've never left charged cases any longer than it takes to seat & crimp bullets.

 

[ATLDave]

A friend of mine had this happen because he got some contaminant into the cases that rendered the powder half-inert.

As for the debate over the meaning/definition of the term squib, lots of the shooting games define squib to be a bore-stuck bullet. Other, probably older, possibly more common, uses are broader and include any underpowered defect.

 

[Rule3]

A squib is not a squib as soon as the bullet exits the barrel. If it stops anywhere inside or even stuck sticking out the end, it's a squib.

Not according to the NRA or SAAMI

NRA RSO page VI-5

"Less than normal pressure or velocity develops after ignition of the cartridge"

The instructions to follow are then given

We can pontificate about semantics all day. Yes, a squib is generally a projectile stuck in the barrel.

People call magazines clips.

 

[ReloaderFred]

Well, Shaq, I've been reloading 8 years longer than you, and didn't have my first squib load until I'd loaded over 750,000 rounds. Like you, I thought I was "bullet proof", but that single squib load, at the biggest match in my sport, proved I wasn't.

I have many thousands of rounds of brass in my shop. My practice in most cases is to tumble, size, clean primer pockets, and store until needed, mostly in 8 pound powder jugs with the top partially cut off, but also in 5 gallon buckets, cardboard boxes, ammo cans, or anything else that will hold brass. Stuff happens when you're not looking.

I have 6 loading presses, with two of them progressives, and I load for 31 different calibers. I'm saying it again, if you load long enough, and load enough rounds, something unexplainable is going to happen. Nobody is perfect..............

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[Hondo 60]

I don't know what your definition of a squib load is but you described a classic squib load in your OP.

I guess my definition of a squib is a round created with no powder or a very small charge.
I don't believe either of those conditions were present.

This is not a new load to me, plus the other 49 rounds in that same box fired just fine.

Maybe a plugged flash hole.

Now that sounds possible.
Why would 49 of 'em sound right, and not the 50th?
The more I think about it, the more that sounds not only possible, but probable!

 

[Schwing]

It's great that some reloaders never experience squibs. The reality is, however, that they do happen and they are not always the reloader's fault.

I have personally had a squib using published loading data that ended up being way too low on the scale. It was Hornady data for 300MP when it first came out. In my case, I saw exactly what you describe. There was very little burned powder but a case full of unburned powder that was kind of clumped together. The feel of the load was so distinct that it was very obvious something was wrong. There was a pop that sounded about like a can of soda being opened.

I had a half dozen more of these loads. I pulled and weighed the charges in 5 of them. They were all correct. I fired the 6th one and, sure enough, it was another squib.

I have also seen other reloaders who have ended up with bad lots of powder or primers that resulted in squibs. It doesn't happen often but it does happen. No disrespect intended to those who think they are safe because they look in every case but sometimes variations in powder drops are not really large enough to be noticed. This is especially a problem with some of the magnum primers with narrow swings in load data. You may not be able to see the variation visually

Personally, I do visually inspect my cases after they are charged and still use either a lockout die or Dillon powder check just in case I ever do get sloppy and look away on that one bad throw. I also learned from my one squib experience and never load at the very lowest end of the data, especially in cold temperatures.

 

[jmorris]

People call magazines clips.

Not just "people".

 

[TimSr]

A friend of mine had this happen because he got some contaminant into the cases that rendered the powder half-inert.

Case lube is the usual culprit in cases of contaminated powder.

Maybe a plugged flash hole.

This is actually kind of rare because it's hard to plug the hole with anything that will stay there and not be blown out by the primer unless it's pressed in under the primer, which is usually visually obvious. I'm sure somebody has seated a primer over a piece of tumbling media plugging a whole when not inspecting each piece, though.

 

[sage5907]

Several years ago I experienced the same problem with a Ruger Blackhawk 44 magnum. I never had the problem with jacketed bullets but I did have it happen with cast bullets. Probably not enough neck tension to hold the bullet in place when the primer went off. I never had a bullet stick in the barrel, they would be pushed completely through the bore and fall harmlessly at my feet. If I remember right I was using 23 grains of 4227 with a 240 grain pure lead cast bullet. It happened three or four times and I laughed every time it happened.

 

[Shaq]

Well, Shaq, I've been reloading 8 years longer than you, and didn't have my first squib load until I'd loaded over 750,000 rounds. Like you, I thought I was "bullet proof", but that single squib load, at the biggest match in my sport, proved I wasn't.

I have many thousands of rounds of brass in my shop. My practice in most cases is to tumble, size, clean primer pockets, and store until needed, mostly in 8 pound powder jugs with the top partially cut off, but also in 5 gallon buckets, cardboard boxes, ammo cans, or anything else that will hold brass. Stuff happens when you're not looking.

I have 6 loading presses, with two of them progressives, and I load for 31 different calibers. I'm saying it again, if you load long enough, and load enough rounds, something unexplainable is going to happen. Nobody is perfect..............

Hope this helps.

Fred

You said it - "Stuff happens when you're not looking."
Before powder charging, I glance at the empty case. If there was anything in the case, I couldn't miss it.

 

[jmorris]

Several years ago I experienced the same problem with a Ruger Blackhawk 44 magnum. I never had the problem with jacketed bullets but I did have it happen with cast bullets. Probably not enough neck tension to hold the bullet in place when the primer went off.

When I haven't had enough neck tension/crimp with revolver loads the first shot generally provides enough recoil to pull other bullets from cases in the cylinder and they make it so the cylinder cannot rotate.

 

[Hondo 60]

This has absolutely nothing to do with neck tension.
As I stated - 49 rounds in that box went BOOM!
Only 1 round went pop.

Besides this is a recipe I've used for years, so I've had hundreds of rounds go BOOM!

 

[Rule3]

Endless speculation

Stuff happens

Something happened

We can guess until the Cows come home, (when is that anyway)

We will never, ever know.

Carry on.

 

[hdwhit]

This has absolutely nothing to do with neck tension.
As I stated - 49 rounds in that box went BOOM!
Only 1 round went pop.

A cartridge is a fairly simple system with five principal components:
* Bullet
* Case
* Powder
* Primer
* And the process by which they are assembled.

In this case, there were 50 rounds assembled from similar components from similar batches with a single failure.

It seems that the primer can be ruled out since it fired with enough energy to launch the bullet out of the case and into the barrel. The bullet can also probably be ruled out as a cause of the failure since it went through the reloading process with no obvious signs of distress and was launches into the barrel by the energy of the primer. It seems unlikely that the powder was the culprit since 49 other loads of the same powder burned properly when subjected to a primer flash.

This leaves either the case or the process as the potential cause of the failure.

And if we observe the reloader has long experience, did get a functioning primer into the case and did get a significant quantity of a viable powder into the case then the most crucial steps were followed to ensure a functioning cartridge and the obvious causes of a squib load seem to have been addressed. So, unless there was some one-off failure by the reloader (i.e. inadvertently saturating the powder, failure to resize the case) it seems likely that the process can be excluded as a cause of the failure.

That leaves a defective case as the most likely cause of the failure based on the information provided here.

Wind243xb has posited a plausible mechanism to explain the failure that involves the case. If the components of the squib round have been retained, the case would seem to be the place to being the investigation.