Yep, and at that time smokeless powder cartridges hadn't even been around in widespread use long enough to make a determination if it would last longer. Note the word "expected".
when is ammo too old?
- Thread starter mainecoon
- Start date
- Status
Yep, and at that time smokeless powder cartridges hadn't even been around in widespread use long enough to make a determination if it would last longer. Note the word "expected".
Now why would the Military try to place big ammo dumps out in the middle of no where?
Would it be because they don't like the attention they get when one of their ammo dumps goes Kaboom in a highly populated area?
This has happened, all you have to do is search and find historic examples of what happens when big piles of ammunition go Kaboom in the middle of a city. Look up the Black Tom event, maybe not an auto combustion event, but it was a learning experience about what happens when an ammo dump goes bang in middle of a high population area:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Tom_explosion
Old ammunition will auto combust and since the stuff gets unstable as it ages, even if it does not autocombust, it takes less effort to get it burning.
Even now, when a gas line goes off near the Blue Grass Army Depot in Jan 2012, the residents of Lexington Kentucky remember the explosion from 1985 and that the tens of thousands of old, leaking, mustard gas rockets are still there! http://www.kentucky.com/2012/01/04/2014195/gas-line-still-burns-in-estill.html
http://www.bioprepwatch.com/news/st...depots-mustard-gas-should-be-exploded/268474/
Mustard gas, that will clear your nostrils!
Just yesterday the Russians had to evacuate 6,500 people after ammo depot explosions . Due to all the dash camera's in Russia, there are some pretty good mushroom cloud pictures.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fcd_1371582365
Below, I copied material from the 2003 Propellant Management Guide. This guide is now ten years old, more autoignition events have happened in the US since 2003. I was unable to find anything about the 1984 Lake City event, but what do you know, found out about a 2011 event: Several hurt in reported explosion at Lake City Army Ammunition Plant http://www.kshb.com/dpp/news/region...n-at-Lake-City-Ammunition-Plant#ixzz2WrH2O2UT
It is easy for skeptics to make claims about “nothing ever happens” because skeptics are not looking, and there is no central location in the public domain consolidating these events. If they do make it into the public media the root cause is not published, it will be in a Government report but Government safety reports are not released to the public. Besides these big ticket events there are lots more incidents that are not worth using as an example in a training manual, none of which you will find out unless you happen to have been there, or know someone who was there.
During the period 1984 through 1997, seven propellant autoignition events occurred at U.S. Army Materiel Command (AMC) installations.
1. 1984: Lake City AAP
IMR powder that was only 5 years old autoignited and the above ground magazine & its contents were destroyed. More than 100,000 lbs of powder deflagrated.
2. 1984: Lake City AAP
The same lot of IMR powder, a fragment quantity isolated and saved for critical production testing, autoignited two months after the previous fire. Only a small quantity of powder was lost, but another magazine was destroyed.
3. 1985: Blue Grass Army Depot
The local-stocks storage magazine use for demilitarization activities contained high explosives material as well as unmonitored M10 propellant powder. Autoignition of the powder and its resulting deflagration gradually ignited the other energetic materials present. The earth covered magazine and its contents were destroyed.
4. 1987: Lone Star AAP
Benite was stored in a heated magazine so that it could be temperature conditioned prior to loading into production items. The building became overheated which accelerated the rate of decomposition of the benite to a point that autoignition occurred. The structure and contents were lost.
5. 1989: Hawthorne Army Depot
8-inch, 55-caliber propelling charges loaded with single-base propellant autoignited in an earth-covered magazine more than one year after the Navy ordered the lot destroyed due to low stability. The magazine contents of 30,715 lbs of various propellants were destroyed, and the magazine was heavily damaged.
Did not find anything on the web about this incident though I did find an incident of a death of a Marine who died at Hawthorne when a mortar round blew in the tube. I wonder how old it was? http://berkshirebeacon.com/news/2013/03/hawthorne-army-depot-explosion-victim-to-be-buried-in-lenox/
6. 1996: Red River Army Depot
Expulsion charge assemblies for large caliber artillery rounds, each charge filled with only one ounce of M10 propellant and stored 250 to a box, autoignited. The earth-covered magazine and its contents were totally destroyed.
7. 1997: Hawthorne Army Depot
M9 flake propellant bags that had been removed from 81MM mortar rounds were bulk-packed and placed into long-term storage. A container of unstable propellant autoignited, and all 20,000 lbs of propellant inside the earth-covered magazine were destroyed. The magazine was severely damaged. Value of contents lost was more than $3,000,000, while the cost to repair the magazine was $164,000.
d. Accidental autoignition of propellant occurs at other than Army facilities, too. During the same time period as the incidents above, propellant self-ignition accidents have occurred at Navy facilities and at privately owned industrial storage sites. If you consider the number of accidents versus the limited number of locations that store artillery and small arms propellants, you begin to realize that the chances of having an accident happen at your installation are not as unlikely as you may have imagined.
Were you the facility manager?, what level of authority did you have at this location?
backbencher
Member
Er, 47 died. The Navy initially claimed it was an intentional detonation, and on review, settled for undetermined. The Sandia experiments resulting in the Navy review found the ramming speed was too high. The age of the powder was not faulted.
Perhaps one of the better sourced Wikipedia articles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Iowa_turret_explosion
sixgunner455
Member
- Joined
- Aug 25, 2006
- Messages
- 3,052
And the age of the powder on the Iowa didn't matter so much, just the storage conditions, because those big guns used black powder for the propellant.
ETA: Obviously, I was misled when I read about this years ago...
ETA: Obviously, I was misled when I read about this years ago...
Last edited:
I was the Munitions Accountable Systems Officer, and personally had knowledge of the status and disposition of everything stored at the depot for two years. Nothing moved without my signature.
Your turn.
Actually those big guns used Nitrated-Cellulose (NC) smokeless propellant. Up to 630 pounds of it per shot. The propellant formulation was changed several times between WWII and their last retirement in order to extend the life of the barrels.
backbencher
Member
Ok, Black Tom was not an auto-combustion event - it was Imperial German sabotage.
Your 2012 link is about a gas line explosion. The 1985 event you cite was not an autoignition event, as it was at an AMC location, but not cited in the report below which I found a link for.
Here is the 1985 link:
http://www.apnewsarchive.com/1985/Ordnance-Team-to-Survey-Damage-After-Blast-at-Depot/id-ef37e14cb00e01d31a804edbb49667e3
Your bioterror link is about the difficulty of getting rid of old mustard gas shells b/c the mustard gas has solidified.
Your Russian link claims 5000 evacuated, not 6500. There is no indication as to the cause of the event.
Your 2011 Lake City incident would seem to have nothing to do w/ old powder - but new powder, in fact.
Found your link for you:
[URL="www.marcorsyscom.usmc.mil/am/ammunition/Corporate_Center/Ammunition_Quarterly/Vol10No3.pdf"]www.marcorsyscom.usmc.mil/am/ammunition/.../Vol10No3.pdf[/URL] - Pages 7-10.
Last edited:
alsaqr
Member
Been involved in Explosive Ordnance Disposal, it's civilian equivalent and ammunition consulting for nearly 50 years. Managed the destruction of well over 15,000 tons of ammunition from Desert Storm: Much of the ammunition we destroyed was serviceable. The Army did not want to pay re-packaging and transportation costs. Destroyed a few thousand tons of 155mm and 8" artillery propellant. Some of the 155mm green bag propellant i destroyed was made in 1943-44: The US Army used some of those charges in Desert Storm. Removed the stuff from its original containers for burning. There was no deterioration and the bags were still in good shape.
For many years i had my own EOD and ammunition consulting business. Worked for many years in the middle east, including Iraq, when that country was fighting the Iranians. i'm familiar with the effect of high temperature on ammunition of all types. Wrote studies on the effects of heat on military munitions: Received huge bonuses for same.
In the middle east and Africa magazine temperatures often exceed 120 degrees F: All kinds of bad stuff happens; especially when those magazines are not properly ventilated. Artillery primers go bad, artillery igniter pads go bad, grenade detonators go bad, mortar fuzes get crudded up and fail to arm. Trinotrophenylmethylnitromine (tetryl) artillery bursters deteriorate and low order. In the high heat on the firing line the bodies of TOW missiles sometimes swelled due to expanding condensation. Some swelled so much they would not fit the launcher tube.
The Saudis had 8mm small arms ammunition that had been stored in their magazines since 1950: The stuff was very reliable. Never encountered any lot of small arms ammunition that had a high rate of misfires or damaged a gun.
The only guns i ever saw damaged were some FALs and FN machine guns that had US made M82 blanks fired in them on the advice of an Army QUASAS.
i've fired at least several million rounds of military surplus ammunition; some was over 100 years old. Never heard of any round of small arms ammunition blowing up a gun due to deteriorated propellant.
For many years i had my own EOD and ammunition consulting business. Worked for many years in the middle east, including Iraq, when that country was fighting the Iranians. i'm familiar with the effect of high temperature on ammunition of all types. Wrote studies on the effects of heat on military munitions: Received huge bonuses for same.
In the middle east and Africa magazine temperatures often exceed 120 degrees F: All kinds of bad stuff happens; especially when those magazines are not properly ventilated. Artillery primers go bad, artillery igniter pads go bad, grenade detonators go bad, mortar fuzes get crudded up and fail to arm. Trinotrophenylmethylnitromine (tetryl) artillery bursters deteriorate and low order. In the high heat on the firing line the bodies of TOW missiles sometimes swelled due to expanding condensation. Some swelled so much they would not fit the launcher tube.
The Saudis had 8mm small arms ammunition that had been stored in their magazines since 1950: The stuff was very reliable. Never encountered any lot of small arms ammunition that had a high rate of misfires or damaged a gun.
The only guns i ever saw damaged were some FALs and FN machine guns that had US made M82 blanks fired in them on the advice of an Army QUASAS.
i've fired at least several million rounds of military surplus ammunition; some was over 100 years old. Never heard of any round of small arms ammunition blowing up a gun due to deteriorated propellant.
Last edited:
surfinUSA
Member
Well I purchase and use surplus ammo. I consider most of it safer than reloaded ammo. That said, I agree with Slamfire1 that there is a reason that surplus ammo is surplused. A lot of us are nothing but testers for the surplus market. We read about what's bad on the net and we don't buy. Hopefully we are the one that doesn't have a problem.
Personally my Century FAL (that's right the worst of the lot with a Hesse FAL-H receiver) has seen nothing but thousands of rounds of surplus and I've never had a problem with the gun or the ammo.
I think most problems with surplus ammo is duds. In 8mm I had so many fail to fires that I sold the gun. It was cheap and it wasn't worth it for me to buy new commercial ammo.
Personally my Century FAL (that's right the worst of the lot with a Hesse FAL-H receiver) has seen nothing but thousands of rounds of surplus and I've never had a problem with the gun or the ammo.
I think most problems with surplus ammo is duds. In 8mm I had so many fail to fires that I sold the gun. It was cheap and it wasn't worth it for me to buy new commercial ammo.
At the time this thread was posted:
FAL Explosion
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=370993
Which is a Kaboom with 1975 Chilean surplus ammunition, I did not know that old ammunition could or would blow up rifles. The posts in this thread reflect this ignorance, offering, for example that the rifle went out of battery. Having examining a FAL mechanism, I don't see how the hammer could hit the firing pin of a FAL if the mechanism was out of battery. Since the shooter had a chambered round and the rifle Kaboom'd after he pulled the trigger, the best explanation is a high pressure round.
The pictures probably came from this thread:
http://www.l1a1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142685
Note that the posters in the thread don't know that old ammunition can have pressure problems. Therefore you get theories such as "brittle brass" without any understanding why the brass would be brittle or even it if was brittle, or sabotaged ammunition. The brass could be "brittle" as when the stabilizer is depleted in gunpowder you get severe outgassing of NOx. One of the by products of NOx is fuming red nitric acid gas. Nitric acid gas will attack brass and cause pin holes and cause brass cracks.
You can find more posts where shooters rifles have disassembled with surplus ammunition
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1274824
FAL Explosion
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=370993
Which is a Kaboom with 1975 Chilean surplus ammunition, I did not know that old ammunition could or would blow up rifles. The posts in this thread reflect this ignorance, offering, for example that the rifle went out of battery. Having examining a FAL mechanism, I don't see how the hammer could hit the firing pin of a FAL if the mechanism was out of battery. Since the shooter had a chambered round and the rifle Kaboom'd after he pulled the trigger, the best explanation is a high pressure round.
The pictures probably came from this thread:
http://www.l1a1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=142685
Note that the posters in the thread don't know that old ammunition can have pressure problems. Therefore you get theories such as "brittle brass" without any understanding why the brass would be brittle or even it if was brittle, or sabotaged ammunition. The brass could be "brittle" as when the stabilizer is depleted in gunpowder you get severe outgassing of NOx. One of the by products of NOx is fuming red nitric acid gas. Nitric acid gas will attack brass and cause pin holes and cause brass cracks.
You can find more posts where shooters rifles have disassembled with surplus ammunition
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1274824
alfon99
Member
I have a friend here in south america that has a mauser that was from his grandfather, who fought in a kind of little civil war here in uruguay. My friend uses his grandfather's ammo, and it seems to work. Of course he has lots of misfires, but nothing happened to him shooting more than a century old ammo.
That is a most excellent link.
http://www.marcorsyscom.usmc.mil/am/ammunition/Corporate_Center/Ammunition_Quarterly/Vol10No3.pdf
If this is not an official Navy Insensitive Munitions page, it ought to be:
http://www.insensitivemunitions.org/
Never heard of this till I looked at the web page:
The explosion, on 1 October 1972, in an 8-inch “bag gun”27 aboard the heavy cruiser, USS NEWPORT NEWS, deserves special mention. The projectile, loaded with Explosive D, detonated in the ram position in the gun chamber. The accident was attributed to a premature fuze action. The explosion ignited the powder bags in the turret. Fire and combustion gases propagated down the powder hoist. The tubes around the hoist were ruptured and the combustion gases vented into the bowels of the ship. Twenty sailors died as a result of the explosion or by asphyxiation due to the burning propellant gases
Personally I am surprised the Navy did not blame the Newport News gun turret explosion with another theory about suicidal Gay sailors. As you can see on this web page, the Navy explained the Iowa explosion as a suicide/murder plot blaming an innocent, unfortunate, dead sailor who was neither gay nor suicidal.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/...Iowa-Part-3-The-Navy-scapegoats-a-dead-sailor
this is from another site:
Meanwhile, the Navy had discovered that the bags of propellant, dating from the Korean war, had been improperly stored for 5 months in temperatures exceeding 90 degrees, the point at which the propellant becomes unstable.
The Navy's investigation also showed that the freshman sailor operating the rammer had over-rammed the propellant, 5 bags instead of the expected 6, slamming it into the warhead.
In response to accusations that the propellant was unstable, the Navy decided on a demonstration, and built a "drop test" rig. This was a simulated 16 inch gun barrel, with a ram at the base, that was dropped onto a concrete block to simulate over-ramming. The intention was to drop test the configuration again and again until it was evident that the propellant inside was safe from accidental detonation from over-ramming. Exactly the opposite was proven. On being dropped, the device detonated. The Navy then destroyed the remainder of the Iowa's propellant store and established new rules for the storing of propellant.
New York Times story: http://www.nytimes.com/1990/05/25/u...inquiry-after-ignition-in-gunpowder-test.html
In terms of ammunition surveillance, I am not certain how all these efforts are coordinated by the Executive Director for Conventional Ammunition, apparently a DC organization that over sees all. There are lots of organizations involved in ammunition safety, I found an Army Program Executive Office for Ammunition! http://w4.pica.army.mil/peoammo/Home.aspx
You are to be congratulated for your experience. You did not say, nor do I believe you are an Ammunitions Specialist or an Insensitive Munitions expert.
Now I have questions, when was this? If you do not want to reveal a specific year, then was it after the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan or before, and roughly how many years before/after.
Lets ignore Nukes and Chemical weapons. Were small arms and rockets at your facility? In your term there, did you meet any Ammunition Specialists performing stockpile surveillance activities? You can see the cards and data the USMC uses in its ammunition surveillance.
http://www.marcorsyscom.usmc.mil/am/ammunition/Corporate_Center/Ammunition_Quarterly/Vol10No3.pdf
Did you witness or observe any rocket recertification efforts in your two year term? Were you aware of time till rocket recertification?
http://www.marcorsyscom.usmc.mil/am/ammunition/Corporate_Center/Ammunition_Quarterly/Vol10No3.pdf
If this is not an official Navy Insensitive Munitions page, it ought to be:
http://www.insensitivemunitions.org/
Never heard of this till I looked at the web page:
The explosion, on 1 October 1972, in an 8-inch “bag gun”27 aboard the heavy cruiser, USS NEWPORT NEWS, deserves special mention. The projectile, loaded with Explosive D, detonated in the ram position in the gun chamber. The accident was attributed to a premature fuze action. The explosion ignited the powder bags in the turret. Fire and combustion gases propagated down the powder hoist. The tubes around the hoist were ruptured and the combustion gases vented into the bowels of the ship. Twenty sailors died as a result of the explosion or by asphyxiation due to the burning propellant gases
Personally I am surprised the Navy did not blame the Newport News gun turret explosion with another theory about suicidal Gay sailors. As you can see on this web page, the Navy explained the Iowa explosion as a suicide/murder plot blaming an innocent, unfortunate, dead sailor who was neither gay nor suicidal.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/...Iowa-Part-3-The-Navy-scapegoats-a-dead-sailor
this is from another site:
Meanwhile, the Navy had discovered that the bags of propellant, dating from the Korean war, had been improperly stored for 5 months in temperatures exceeding 90 degrees, the point at which the propellant becomes unstable.
The Navy's investigation also showed that the freshman sailor operating the rammer had over-rammed the propellant, 5 bags instead of the expected 6, slamming it into the warhead.
In response to accusations that the propellant was unstable, the Navy decided on a demonstration, and built a "drop test" rig. This was a simulated 16 inch gun barrel, with a ram at the base, that was dropped onto a concrete block to simulate over-ramming. The intention was to drop test the configuration again and again until it was evident that the propellant inside was safe from accidental detonation from over-ramming. Exactly the opposite was proven. On being dropped, the device detonated. The Navy then destroyed the remainder of the Iowa's propellant store and established new rules for the storing of propellant.
New York Times story: http://www.nytimes.com/1990/05/25/u...inquiry-after-ignition-in-gunpowder-test.html
In terms of ammunition surveillance, I am not certain how all these efforts are coordinated by the Executive Director for Conventional Ammunition, apparently a DC organization that over sees all. There are lots of organizations involved in ammunition safety, I found an Army Program Executive Office for Ammunition! http://w4.pica.army.mil/peoammo/Home.aspx
You are to be congratulated for your experience. You did not say, nor do I believe you are an Ammunitions Specialist or an Insensitive Munitions expert.
Now I have questions, when was this? If you do not want to reveal a specific year, then was it after the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan or before, and roughly how many years before/after.
Lets ignore Nukes and Chemical weapons. Were small arms and rockets at your facility? In your term there, did you meet any Ammunition Specialists performing stockpile surveillance activities? You can see the cards and data the USMC uses in its ammunition surveillance.
http://www.marcorsyscom.usmc.mil/am/ammunition/Corporate_Center/Ammunition_Quarterly/Vol10No3.pdf
Did you witness or observe any rocket recertification efforts in your two year term? Were you aware of time till rocket recertification?
Last edited:
I just found this thread on another forum and thought it was directly related to this topic.
Notice that the ammunition is factory Remington ammunition, about 20 years old, and that Remington, per the poster, considers 10 years the shelf life:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5563891#post5563891
Notice that the ammunition is factory Remington ammunition, about 20 years old, and that Remington, per the poster, considers 10 years the shelf life:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5563891#post5563891
Ash
Member
And oil companies say to change the oil in your car every 3,000 miles.
Bad ammo has nothing at all to do with age. Bad Indian is from the 1990's. Good Indian is from the 1970's. Chilean ammo is bad ammo. Malaysian, Australian, British, Austrian, and German ammo is good ammo.
In an M14 or Garand, surplus ammo is safer than new commercial ammo due, of course, to slamfires.
We are testers for bad ammo when surplus shows up, I'll admit to that, which is the reason we know of bad Chilean, Indian, or Pakistani ammo. It is also why we know of good Radway Green, DAG, PMC & KA, Russian, Bulgarian, Romanian, Czech, Chinese and Hungarian ammo, etc. Norinco is still prized ammo 20 years after the last of it showed up on our shores. Prized even though twice as old as Remington allows? Yes, prized. 1970's Soviet ammo is well-liked, as is 1950's Czech.
If you aren't sure, go with ammo that is a known quantity. Avoid ammo that has a bad rep. For instance, current Remington .22lr ammo is not known for quality with a higher-than-desired rate of misfires. That has nothing to do with age. 1970's Nagant ammo is widely considered superior to modern PPU or Fiocchi (in both accuracy and power).
Bad ammo has nothing at all to do with age. Bad Indian is from the 1990's. Good Indian is from the 1970's. Chilean ammo is bad ammo. Malaysian, Australian, British, Austrian, and German ammo is good ammo.
In an M14 or Garand, surplus ammo is safer than new commercial ammo due, of course, to slamfires.
We are testers for bad ammo when surplus shows up, I'll admit to that, which is the reason we know of bad Chilean, Indian, or Pakistani ammo. It is also why we know of good Radway Green, DAG, PMC & KA, Russian, Bulgarian, Romanian, Czech, Chinese and Hungarian ammo, etc. Norinco is still prized ammo 20 years after the last of it showed up on our shores. Prized even though twice as old as Remington allows? Yes, prized. 1970's Soviet ammo is well-liked, as is 1950's Czech.
If you aren't sure, go with ammo that is a known quantity. Avoid ammo that has a bad rep. For instance, current Remington .22lr ammo is not known for quality with a higher-than-desired rate of misfires. That has nothing to do with age. 1970's Nagant ammo is widely considered superior to modern PPU or Fiocchi (in both accuracy and power).
T2K
Member
I've got at least a couple hundred rounds of POF (Pakistani Ordnance Factory) .303 at home. I've never fired any of it.
Sounds like I should expect lots of hangfires. Thanks for the heads up.
Sounds like I should expect lots of hangfires. Thanks for the heads up.
Prometheus
Member
As others have said, beware the hangfire.
Aside from that, I've shot ammo from the 30's that was stored in cloth bandoliers in wood crates.
Just as reliable as the 555 bulk pack of winchester .22lr I bought the other day, lol.
Also, pay attention to your rifle, if you think you got a underpowered round, make sure the barrel is free from obstruction before firing another round. No body likes a squib
Aside from that, I've shot ammo from the 30's that was stored in cloth bandoliers in wood crates.
Just as reliable as the 555 bulk pack of winchester .22lr I bought the other day, lol.
Also, pay attention to your rifle, if you think you got a underpowered round, make sure the barrel is free from obstruction before firing another round. No body likes a squib
- Status