When purchasing a new gun...

[Styx]

Here is a line around the corner at the San Bernardino Ca Turners Outdoorsman at 10 minutes to 6 in the evening.
Plenty of panic buying, folks were lining up to buy anything they can.

View attachment 900453

Stay safe.

It must be a local thing. It's not like that everywhere. My area of VA has dozens of gun shops to choose from. I'm seeing some members across forums claim there's panic buying, and many others saying it's business as usual. Is that like the only gun shop in town or something? It definitely far, far, far from being even close to the SandyHook panic buying... I see you're in CA, so that might have something to do with it.

 

[Styx]

Those people are breathing all over each other standing in that line. The silliness of people never ceases to amaze me.

No different than people who stand in line during the flu season which is a virus that kills over 20 thousand per year in the U.S. alone, infects millions, and hospitalizes hundreds of thousands. If it's not silly that we don't shut everything down during the annual cold and flu season, then I see nothing wrong with not worrying about a virus that only has a 1-2% death rate amongst sick elderly, has a death rate in the that U.S. less about the same or less than the common flu, bird flu, swine flu, etc, etc, and has only infected and killed a fraction of people that other much more common viruses have on an annual basis. I actually plan on going to the range tomorrow if it's still open.

 

[MrShooter]

What state is this?
Federal law allows the background check results to be valid for thirty days. If a buyer is delayed, waits five weeks to come back.....he starts all over.

This is in Wisconsin, my LGS owner said application is only good for 7 days.

 

[MrShooter]

Also, results are not valid for 30 days, not even 30 hours. If y buy a gun on Monday and decide to buy another on Tuesday you have to pay for and run another background check. I was told by one dealer that if you so much as walk out the door and come back a few hours later you have to run another check.

 

[ponchh]

Not true.
A "proceed" response means FBI NICS could not find any prohibiting factors.
A "delayed" response means FBI NICS needs to do additional research. The Brady Law does not prohibit the dealer from transferring after the NTN date...but he is not required to do so. If the NTN date arrives and the dealer chooses to transfer ....it's not the same as a "proceed" and certainly not "cleared by default". As mentioned above, it is possible to receive a "Denied" response from NICS after the firearm was transferred. I've had it happen once in eleven years.

It's absolutely is true.
After 3 days without a denial, is the same as approval as far as the FFL is concerned. I've been there and done that on a few occasions before I got my CCL. Now it's closer to 3 minutes instead of 3 days.
Besides, you basically said the same thing i did , but went way around the barn to do it.

 

[dogtown tom]

"Within" allows NCIS to transmit a proceed or deny to the FFL based on more information before the three days is up. I have been delayed many times and when that deadline hits I am usually there quite promptly.

Wrong. You wrote "Federal law allows a FFL to proceed with the sale within 3 business days if the dealer receives no response" that sir, is factually incorrect.

Further, its NOT THREE DAYS!!!
NICS will give the dealer a disposition date that is usually three business days beginning the next business day. That date MAY be longer.....and right now I'm getting dispostion dates of April 15th for a transaction submitted yesterday.

 

[dogtown tom]

This is in Wisconsin, my LGS owner said application is only good for 7 days.

That would be your states law, not Federal. FBI NICS NTN's are valid for thirty days.

 

[dogtown tom]

Also, results are not valid for 30 days, not even 30 hours.

Well, no. The NICS "result" is for that particular transaction and valid under federal law for thirty days.
If you complete a 4473, dealer runs your NICS check and gets a "Delayed" response.....that NTN (NICS Transaction Number) is valid for thirty days. The dealer is told by the FBI NICS Examiner "NTN #12345 is Delayed while the NICS conducts additional research, the Brady Law does not prohibit the transfer of the firearm on _____ date" and the examiner will give the dealer a specific date. Depending on state holidays or state office closings, that date isn't "three days", but at a minimum "three business days beginning the next business day" and possibly MUCH longer.

If y buy a gun on Monday and decide to buy another on Tuesday you have to pay for and run another background check. I was told by one dealer that if you so much as walk out the door and come back a few hours later you have to run another check.

That's correct because the background check on Tuesday (or even an hour later) is for a separate transaction. Once the dealer has signed the 4473 that transaction is closed.

 

[dogtown tom]

It's absolutely is true.
After 3 days without a denial, is the same as approval as far as the FFL is concerned.

<---FFL for over eleven years and you don't know what you are talking about.
A "Delayed" response is not the same as a "Proceed" even if transferred by the dealer after the MDI date has come and gone. The dealer is required to record the actual response on Que 19 d. and "same as approval" ain't one of the options.

Further, while the Brady Law does not prohibit the dealer from transferring the firearm on the MDI date....HE IS NOT REQUIRED to do so. Some big box stores refuse to transfer until they receive a Proceed.

I've been there and done that on a few occasions before I got my CCL. Now it's closer to 3 minutes instead of 3 days.
Besides, you basically said the same thing i did , but went way around the barn to do it.

<----2000 NICS transactions a year. Going around the barn isn't the same thing.

 

[ponchh]

<---FFL for over eleven years and you don't know what you are talking about.
A "Delayed" response is not the same as a "Proceed" even if transferred by the dealer after the MDI date has come and gone. The dealer is required to record the actual response on Que 19 d. and "same as approval" ain't one of the options.

Further, while the Brady Law does not prohibit the dealer from transferring the firearm on the MDI date....HE IS NOT REQUIRED to do so. Some big box stores refuse to transfer until they receive a Proceed.



<----2000 NICS transactions a year. Going around the barn isn't the same thing.

I know how to read, been doing it for sometime now. You say the dealer is required to record the response. What if there is no response?

If the FFL transfers the firearm, the FFL must mark “No resolution was provided within three business days” on line 21d of the ATF Form 4473.

It's easy as that unless you're just trying to prove somebody wrong, that actually isn't. It's a difference without distinction.

An FFL isn't "required" to transfer a gun at anytime. If he or she doesn't like the way you look they can refuse to sell or transfer.

 

[Howland937]

It appears that in some cases, state law is more restrictive than federal. And some companies are even more restrictive. Knock on wood, I've never been denied or delayed...but my buddy who owns a shop locally says, by law here in Ohio, if 5 days pass without a confirmation of proceed or denied on a transaction, he CAN release said firearm to said buyer without fear of penalty. He has had 2 cases in 20 some years that a denial was issued after he had released a firearm to a buyer. Then it was between the buyer and the govt to resolve the matter and he was no longer part of the process.

 

[dogtown tom]

I know how to read, been doing it for sometime now.

Well, comprehension might be the issue.
You wrote: "...After 3 days without a denial, is the same as approval as far as the FFL is concerned..."
1. It isn't "3 days"
2. It isn't "the same as an approval"......that would be a proceed.
3. Approval of a transfer is not the same as not being prohibited from transferring. You don't think its a difference, but dealers, ATF, FBI and many states do.

You say the dealer is required to record the response. What if there is no response?
If the FFL transfers the firearm, the FFL must mark “No resolution was provided within three business days” on line 21d of the ATF Form 4473.

Sigh.
See this is what I'm talking about....
1. "What if there is no response?" Again, the dealer may transfer the firearm on the MDI date given by the NICS examiner....not "after 3 days".
2. Your second sentence shows again you aren't as knowledgeable as you think.....there is no line 21d on a Form 4473. It's Que. 19.d. (as I wrote above that you read)

It's easy as that unless you're just trying to prove somebody wrong, that actually isn't. It's a difference without distinction.

Lets see:
You think it "3 days".....it isn't.
You think an "approval" means the same as a proceed...it doesn't.
You think there's a "line 21d" on the Form 4473.....again, fail.

An FFL isn't "required" to transfer a gun at anytime. If he or she doesn't like the way you look they can refuse to sell or transfer.

A licensee can cancel a transfer for any reason that does not involve a violation of the buyers civil rights (race, ethnicity, age,etc).
If the buyer says "Imma gonna kill that man when I get home".....guess what? No gun for you.
Buyer tries to have someone else fill out the gun that has his name on the invoice? That's a straw sale. No gun for either of you.
Buyer reeks of weed or alcohol? No gun for you.
Buyer acts "weird", or makes comments threatening about a person or group.....No gun for you.

 

[ponchh]

Well, comprehension might be the issue.
You wrote: "...After 3 days without a denial, is the same as approval as far as the FFL is concerned..."
1. It isn't "3 days"
2. It isn't "the same as an approval"......that would be a proceed.
3. Approval of a transfer is not the same as not being prohibited from transferring. You don't think its a difference, but dealers, ATF, FBI and many states do.


Sigh.
See this is what I'm talking about....
1. "What if there is no response?" Again, the dealer may transfer the firearm on the MDI date given by the NICS examiner....not "after 3 days".
2. Your second sentence shows again you aren't as knowledgeable as you think.....there is no line 21d on a Form 4473. It's Que. 19.d. (as I wrote above that you read)




Lets see:
You think it "3 days".....it isn't.
You think an "approval" means the same as a proceed...it doesn't.
You think there's a "line 21d" on the Form 4473.....again, fail.


A licensee can cancel a transfer for any reason that does not involve a violation of the buyers civil rights (race, ethnicity, age,etc).
If the buyer says "Imma gonna kill that man when I get home".....guess what? No gun for you.
Buyer tries to have someone else fill out the gun that has his name on the invoice? That's a straw sale. No gun for either of you.
Buyer reeks of weed or alcohol? No gun for you.
Buyer acts "weird", or makes comments threatening about a person or group.....No gun for you.



Your questions get dumber and dumberer. No, and nothing I've written in this thread or forum would lead someone of average intelligence to come to that conclusion.
Stop digging your hole.

Again you are confirming exactly what I said from the very beginning, only you write several paragraphs to say what i did with one sentence.

Without denial within 3 days, the sale is approved by default.

You can color it any way you want, it's still a horse.

 

[dogtown tom]

Again you are confirming exactly what I said from the very beginning, only you write several paragraphs to say what i did with one sentence.

Without denial within 3 days, the sale is approved by default.

You can color it any way you want, it's still a horse.

You said you read what was written, yet AGAIN ya got it WRONG.

 

[Robert]

Again you are confirming exactly what I said from the very beginning, only you write several paragraphs to say what i did with one sentence.

Without denial within 3 days, the sale is approved by default.

You can color it any way you want, it's still a horse.

Just curious, how many years have you been an FFL and how many transfers have you conducted as such?

 

[ponchh]

Just curious, how many years have you been an FFL and how many transfers have you conducted as such?

I'm not and never have, but it doesn't keep me from knowing that it's a fact, without a denial within 3 business days the FFL is authorized to transfer a gun to a buyer. Are you of a different opinion?

 

[Robert]

Can you please cite where you are getting that information?

 

[dogtown tom]

I'm not and never have, but it doesn't keep me from knowing that it's a fact, without a denial within 3 business days the FFL is authorized to transfer a gun to a buyer. Are you of a different opinion?

Get your story straight.
First it was "3 days", now you write "3 business days".......which is "it's a fact"?

 

[Howland937]

Ok, can everyone agree that when a person fills out form 4473, there are 2 outcomes. A person either gets a firearm or doesn't. There are 2 ways they can get it. A "proceed" or a period of days passes without a "denied" and the FFL, at their discretion, transfers the firearm. There are 2 ways they don't get the firearm. One, they are denied. 2, they are delayed and after the period of days passes without an official "proceed" or "denied", the FFL, at their discretion, declines to transfer. Isn't everything else just semantics at this point?

 

[Browning]

Is there panic buying going on?

Yeah. I ordered something at RifleGear in Plano Texas. They called me yesterday to tell me it was in.

As a ‘by the way’ kinda thing the employee mentioned to be there early since they’ve been busy. I showed up today at 9:45 (they open at 10:00) and 20 people were in line before the doors opened.

I was lucky number 7.


Some people showed up with gloves, two guys wore gloves and masks. They took the people buying guns in first in a group of a few people and let in a few buying ammo or accessories. After that it was just a couple people at a time. Less than ten in the store at all times. Use of the hand sanitizer was encouraged.

Most ammo types were out of stock. They still had a good selection of guns. Mostly AR’s, Glocks and Sigs.

Very nice store, nice staff. I’ll be back. However buying a gun during a pandemic was a weird experience.

 

[ponchh]

Can you please cite where you are getting that information?

FBI.gov

 

[dogtown tom]

Can you please cite where you are getting that information?

I can. It's outdated information on the FBI website.https://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/nics/about-nicshttps://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/nics/about-nics
Since the FBI has nothing to do with the ATF Form 4473, they don't bother keeping up with where the results of the background check are recorded.
From that webpage: (my comments in red)

The NICS Section
Located at the FBI’s Criminal Justice Information Services Division in Clarksburg, West Virginia, the NICS Section processes background checks for the FFLs in those states that have declined to serve as POCs for the NICS. The FFLs conducting business in these states will contact the NICS either by telephone via the NCCC, or electronically by the NICS E-Check via the Internet. The FFLs will provide the descriptive information requested on the ATF Form 4473, which is required by law to be completed and signed by every prospective firearm transferee. The FFL will receive a response that the transfer may proceed or is delayed.

After initiating a firearm background check via the NCCC, if no matching records are returned by any of the databases, the transaction is automatically proceeded. If the NICS returns a match of the prospective firearm transferee’s descriptive information to that of record information located in any of the databases, the FFL is advised that the transaction is delayed. While the FFL is still on the telephone, the call is placed on hold and transferred to the NICS Section in Clarksburg, West Virginia, for a quick review and evaluation by a NICS legal instruments examiner (NICS examiner). If the record information returned by the NICS presents a valid match to the descriptive information of the prospective firearm transferee, the NICS examiners, who have access to protected information (as opposed to NCCC personnel who do not have such access) review the information to determine if state and/or federal firearm prohibitive criteria exists. If the information matched by the NICS is not a valid match or no prohibitive criteria exists, the NICS examiner will advise the FFL they may PROCEED with the firearm transaction. The FFL must record the NICS Transaction Number (NTN) on line 21b (hasn't been line 21b for years) of the ATF Form 4473 and retain the form for auditing purposes.

If it is determined that prohibitive criteria exists, the NICS examiner will advise the FFL to DENY the firearm transaction. If potentially prohibitive criteria exists and more information is required in order to make the determination, the NICS examiner will advise the FFL to DELAY the firearm transaction and the FFL will receive the following instructions:

“. . .NTN ___ will be delayed while the NICS continues its research. If you do not receive a final response from us, the Brady Law does not prohibit the transfer of the firearm on day/date.” This is what several in this thread do not understand. The commonly used phrase "three day delay" is erroneous.....the delay is actually as long as the NICS Examiner says it is.....that's why they give the dealer the day and date. Note also the "Brady Law does not prohibit...", not the same as a "Proceed" response and certainly not "Approved".

The NICS examiner will provide the FFL with the date of the third business day after the firearm check was initiated. Business days do not include the day the check was initiated, Saturdays, Sundays, and any day state offices in the state of purchase are closed. Again, not "3 days", not "three business days" but three business days beginning the next business day and doesn't include Saturday , Sunday, days state offices are closed (like for Corona virus) or holidays where state offices are closed. If the FFL has not received from the NICS a final determination after three business days have elapsed since the delay response, it is within the FFL’s discretion whether or not to transfer the firearm (if state law permits the transfer). "If state law permits..." is important for those states that require a "Proceed. If the FFL transfers the firearm, the FFL must mark “No resolution was provided within three business days” on line 21d of the ATF Form 4473. Again, not 21d but currently 19.d. It is recommended the FFL record the date provided in the delay response on which the firearm may be lawfully transferred under federal law if a final determination of proceed or denied is not received from the NICS.

When a transaction is DELAYED, the NICS examiner begins extensive research on the potential prohibitor. Upon completion of the research when a definitive status is determined, the FFL is contacted and given a PROCEED or DENY decision on the firearm transaction. Note "definitive status".....meaning it isn't a Proceed or Deny until this status changes. And it doesn't magically change after three days, three business days and may never change.

In states that agree to serve as POCs for the NICS, the functions performed by the NICS Section are performed by a local or state law enforcement agency which services the FFLs. The FFLs call these local or state agencies, which perform the check, make the decision whether the check indicates an individual is disqualified or not from possessing a firearm, and notify the FFL of the results of the check. And those states may use other terms that the FBI NICS does not, such as "Pending" or "Conditional".

It may seem to some that its nitpicking or "going around the barn", but such minutiae is pretty darn important when a violation may result in the dealer losing his FFL or facing felony charges for transferring the firearm before the NTN's disposition date.

 

[ponchh]

I can. It's outdated information on the FBI website.https://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/nics/about-nicshttps://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/nics/about-nics
Since the FBI has nothing to do with the ATF Form 4473, they don't bother keeping up with where the results of the background check are recorded.
From that webpage: (my comments in red)

It may seem to some that its nitpicking or "going around the barn", but such minutiae is pretty darn important when a violation may result in the dealer losing his FFL or facing felony charges for transferring the firearm before the NTN's disposition date.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/atf-form-4473-firearms-transaction-record-revisions
(Location of the revisions)

There is no revision on the denial or approval process.

And it does fall under an FBI header, so there is that.

 

[dogtown tom]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/atf-form-4473-firearms-transaction-record-revisions
(Location of the revisions)

There is no revision on the denial or approval process.

And it does fall under an FBI header, so there is that.

Oh good grief.
I'm embarrassed for you.

 

[ponchh]

Oh good grief.
I'm embarrassed for you.

As an FFL would you transfer a gun to the buyer if there's no response within the 3 days?