Where are the Fault Lines in Our Society--Immigration????

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Waitone

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I've been noodling this question around since the Supreme Court gave a thumbs up on Campaign Finance Control. I noticed a definite change in the content of postings on THR immediately thereafter. Seems to me the postings move from "IF" people get fed up to "WHEN" people get fed up. Implication being there is a line in the sand out there somewhere and we are now considering the eventual need to cross that line.

MY question: The esteemed THR forum over the year has identified numerous fault lines running through our society. The hottest one right now is Illegal Immigration vs Legal Immigration. I've also seen fault lines referred to between urban America vs rural America. Add to that Second Amendment America vs No Second Amendment America. Not too long ago some posters identifed a fault line between water use for agriculture and urban use.

Identify what you think the fault lines are in our society and were do you think the first rupture will occur.

No, I'm not fitted for a tinfoil hat nor am I an EOTWAWKI fanatic. I am somone who senses an electricity in the air that has not been there before.
 
I don't know about the electricity. I've had to explain what the Patriot Act is to two college educated, intelligent (and I thought well informed) people this week.

As for your question, I don't know what will trigger the next revolution, but we Americans do seem wired to support periodic revolution with missionary zeal although most revolutions are not shooting wars.

Most times the revolutionaries win, for good or ill.

They won in the War for Independence.
They won in the Civil War (the North, IMHO, were the revolutionaries).
They won in the New Deal.
They won in the 1960s.

Edited to add: Then again, maybe the revolution started on 9/11 -- we've certainly seen a change in the way many Americans look at liberty: Patriot Acts, Campaign Finance, etc.
 
Fault lines? Let's see...
  • Gun control. Let's watch 'em try and ban any semiauto with a mag capacity in excess of 10 rounds, or any scoped centerfire rifle. Worse: let's get a supreme court ruling saying that "the people" in the 2nd amendment doesn't actually refer to us. Throw in collection of 4473's and mandatory, unreimbursed turn-in as an incentive.
  • Habeus Corpus. Jose Padilla has been in a military brig for 20 months now, without charges and without access to a lawyer. He is a US Citizen. Worse, he is a test case. Let's see what happens if this treatment starts to spread to others, especially citizens who were born here.
  • Speech. What do you mean I can't criticise a politician in the last few months of a campaign -- isn't the 1st amendment largely about political speech? I wanna see someone over at GOA, or JPFO, or the NRA, or here arrested or threatened with imprisonment for e-mailing people alerts, or publishing a rating in their magazine, or some-such. Maybe Ed Masry or someone like him will take out a TV ad at the last minute and get in serious heat.
  • Privacy. Anyone care to hypothesize about the reaction people will have if it gets out that, say, every cell phone conversation in the country is monitored as an anti-terrorism measure, and that enemies of the administration are having sound-bytes of conversations leaked to the media?
  • Voting. How about electronic votes that are clearly wrong but that don't offer a recount. Maybe another crisis like last year where the Democrats lose again because of court rulings, rather than because of the voting process itself. Heh -- maybe in a state Bush's brother runs again.
  • Martial law. 10 sniper teams show up around the next election, doing like we saw in MD last year. We see a couple in LA, maybe some in NY, Chicago, Detroit, Miami, and other urban areas. Martial law is declared to try and slow things down, movement is curtailed, people are searched/arrested for basically nothing...
People are pissed, and not just us libertarian types. I believe there are a number of scenarios that could play out that would have people saying "enough."

Likely? Not really. Possible? Oh yeah. Mix and match the above, and see if you come up with a description of a police state; if people wake up one day to a police state, are they all likely to play along?
 
"They won in the Civil War (the North, IMHO, were the revolutionaries)."

I've never seen or heard that claim before and would never have dreamed it up on my own. Keeping the U.S. of A. together by force of arms was revolutionary?

John
 
They won in the Civil War (the North, IMHO, were the revolutionaries).

lol.gif


The War of Northern Aggression was more a war of conquest than liberation. "Unification" has always been more about taking more land (i.e Russian unificaiton, Japanese unification, etc.). The wrong side won that one...:(

As for the topic, Derek pretty much summed it up. Now we just wait until Claire Wolf says that it's no longer too early...:fire:
 
Potential flash points:

GUN CONTROL: I could see door-to-door collections beginning in California, now that SCOTUS left the 9th Circuit's ruling the law of those states. How many gunowners would hand them over? How many would hand them over bullets first? I think some would do the latter, the gun police would start showing up in SWAT teams, the press would show up, and it would inspire other gun owners.

SCHOOLS: one more one-world-govt UN love the poor program, and parents will start a "take-back-the-schools" movement.

AIRPORTS: Passengers get sick of the "take off your shoes, empty your pockets" BS and start to engage in civil disobedience.

VOTING: electronic-only ballot machine results will NEVER be trusted by the losing side. Watch a gerrymandered Democratic district have a Republican elected and the losers go nuts, refusing to acknowledge the winner as legitimate.

POLICE: people get tired of feeling like the police-citizen relationship has become one of Master-servant. People start capping police at traffic stops out of frustration. Communities start up their own vigilante police groups, especially in areas where police are afraid to go.

And, the perennial favorite, TAXES: Some towns in Virginia require tax decals for automobiles. They charge you for a tax decal, then they charge you tax twice a year. People get fed up with being charged for the privilege of being taxed. How about the magical property assessments on homeowners? That generates plenty of resentment. I could see fed-up taxpayers torching tax assessor offices.

I don't wish for any of the above, but I feel a resentment in the air, both in cyberspace and real life. People are getting sick of the little things in life that govt does. I remember when sales tax in my hometown was 3.5%. Now it is 7.5%. That ends up adding a psychologically painful amount to any trip to the grocery store.
 
Another thought on gun control: how much longer til the Antigunners figure out that there isn't a spitwad's worth of difference between a scoped, bolt-action, centerfire deer rifle..... and a sniper rifle? I think they already know, and I think they also know that THAT would bring the loudest uproar from the gunowning community. For every "assault rifle" I see at my gun club, I see 10 deer hunting rifles on the line.
 
I won't repeat the already good points made above. I will respond generally by saying that the issues already presented touch matters that go to the core of what it means to be a) an American and b) a free citizen.

I think a lot of us who recognize the primacy of The Law in a civilized society are frustrated and disillusioned by the fact that we see the legal system, from the lawyering level all the way up to the Supreme Court, becoming something we can no longer depend on for fairness and justice, much less for responsible juridical opinions. This is critical because when you ask citizens in a Republic to be non-violent you are in effect asking them to sublimate their "barbarous" passions in favor of accepting the Rule of Law. Subvert the rule of law and all bets are off.

The McCain-Feingold bill highlights the subversion of the First Amendment. It presents another key issue: the sense that we the people are not being listened to, that our representatives do not represent us, that we are being treated as rubes, chumps, and serfs; that we are being muzzled like unruly house dogs.

The illegal immigration issues is also huge. It bears on cultural integrity, the importance of national identity, economic fairness, and, yet again, feeling unlistened to. We have all seen The Invasion of the Bodysnatchers (either version); there you have the ultimate "paranoia film," but in this case, it's not paranoia, it's all too real, because our elites appear to be conspiring to hand our nation's future, not to mention its current wealth, over to trespassers for their own selfish personal gain. This strikes at the heart; it's deep stuff. Bush's "compassion" strikes many of us as more calculated cynicism than anything else.

In short, we are being progressively disempowered, and recent events have made that too clear to ignore. Obviously, a lot of people in this country either don't see it or don't much care. We do. I'll stop there, for now.
 
I've never seen or heard that claim before and would never have dreamed it up on my own. Keeping the U.S. of A. together by force of arms was revolutionary?
No, but the Yankees were the ones who sought and caused revolutionary change, be it ending slavery or making the states vastly more subservient to the federal government-- even the way Americans thought of the nation changed from "These United States" to "The United States."

But I don't want to hijack this thread, so I'll leave it at that.
The War of Northern Aggression was more a war of conquest than liberation.
I agree, and that aggression/conquest caused revolutionary changes in the USA -- not least of which was the toppling of the former balance of power between the states and the feds :)
 
I'll tell you one major fault few understand or discuss:

Those who need taxpayers to keep paying taxes to pay for the national debt

versus

the taxpayers who will one day say "Hell, it ain't MY debt!"
 
Two things.

First, I think the immigration issue is the most likely issue to ignite a heated public reaction, and this is the one with the most "revolutionary" potential. I think the polls indicate that Bush is on the wrong side of this one. From what I've seen we are going to witness a real clash of "the people" versus the elites in a way we haven't seen in a long, long time in this country. Bush is a man of "strong convictions;" some would say that means he is a true believer, others that he is merely stubborn and unamenable to reason. If he wants to bet his Presidency on this issue, good luck to him, but it's hard to do something "because it's the right thing to do" when three-quarters of your citizenry at the grass roots level are in opposition.

Secondly, yes, there's been a change in the last several months. I think many of us believed Bush was at least a sober pragmatist, if not a man of liberal (in the old, classic sense) principles. Over time we have seen something else, a combination of a zealot and a cynic. For me, and others, this is not an appealing combination. I think there's been an evolution in political sentiment for those of us who follow what's going on. We liked the "tough guy" who struck back when the liberals were wondering what we'd done to provoke our antagonists. I think a lot of us had been searching for a tough guy to stand up to the forty years of liberal slop that has gummed up our Republic in so many ways. But in the last year or so we've seen the unfolding of not a tough guy but just another politician who wavers, waffles, and waltzes around the Constitution. If we can't trust him on guns, free speech, the rule of law, and national integrity, what can we trust him on? And if not Bush, then who in the hell do we turn to, given the sideshow we're seeing on the Democratic side?
 
spartacus2002's Potential flash points:

"GUN CONTROL: I could see ... "

Matter of time, although at the fed-level, they've already floated the idea. Waco come to mind? There's others, & mainly we get to dis the "offender" because he was painted in the news as some kinda nut-job - clearly deserved it.

Wanna bet that if Oleg was ever raided - & we didn't "know" him - we'd be deciding his fate over these same waves?

NEVER count that out! The publicity of the spin will decide public favor as to who is, & who isn't correct.

As with Waco, the dot/guv first spun it as illegal weapons, then child abuse, with the result of a conflagration that consumed all the "abused" children (no matter who started the fire).

"We're the cops & we're here to help."

SCHOOLS: a swelling movement currently is the vouchure system. Stay tuned.

AIRPORTS:" I mentioned just after 9/11 how the airports could be shut down through legal civil disobedience. See TFL archives for details.

"VOTING:" yup

"POLICE:" I'd betcha most do already - but, just aren't tied into hearing what others have to say. In just casual conversation, everyone I know, or The Wife's conversations, or relateds, has had some negative contact with the po-po & are decidedly more 'n more becoming moreso.

I would, off the top of my hat, say that a majority of "policing" is revenue generation, not to mention a mere "presence" - we want to be in your face & make sure you know it.

From my own personal interaction anyways, I got to roll the dice (do not pass GO) & pay a fine for "speeding" (where the limit could as easily have been twice the MPH posted), crossing a double line (where the ranchers regularly avoid that), "illegal obstruction leading to" of a highway (where the justice of the peace's daughter lost control of her car on a wet road & hit my parked - off the road - car. Only lost my license for 90 days over that one .... ), to my latest "infraction" where I was almost shot to death for checking on a neighborhood situation.

& while we're at it. Who the heck is to blame for setting the damnable traffic signals!? I live fairly rural & rarely go to town, but I've noticed recently that someone has monkeyed with the few I do run across = they don't reflect traffic patterns in the least, nor are they as lenient in their yellowing. But betcha the cops'll still enforce that - if there's not a camera to remotely coontrol us. :barf:

May be quite silly for most of you, but I see absolutely no reason to sit a a "traffic light" when there is no traffic. Part of the apex of control, methinks. "Sit, stay!" I'm better with training mt own dogs.

"I don't wish for any of the above, but I feel a resentment in the air, both in cyberspace and real life. People are getting sick of the little things in life that govt does."

At all levels!

I'll leave it at that.

dot.guv better start reigning it in or they are in for quite the fine ride - at all levels.

Too bad that our "best & finest" will bear the brunt.

& I suspect that will only enthrench you cops moreso.

Too bad, & so sad.

If you only knew - KNEW! - you always had the support of the best that society has to offer. We are, & always were on your side - until you turned aginst us.

You didn't!?

When was it you decided to pull us over for doing "10 over" & starting searching our cars? (& this based on some idiot's view of what the road condition assumed - who the hell set these speed limits anyway? You!?)

Why would you issue a ticket for running a red light when there is no other traffic present? Who sets these guidelines? It must be for revenue, & not safety.


& Drek's

"People are pissed, and not just us libertarian types. I believe there are a number of scenarios that could play out that would have people saying "enough."

Likely? Not really. Possible? Oh yeah. Mix and match the above, and see if you come up with a description of a police state; if people wake up one day to a police state, are they all likely to play along?"


Not likely, Derek. Enough will finally become enough.

Alas. & that will pit us, the supporters of law enforcement-types against those who truly believe they are doing the best they can to support those same goals.

What a $#!+hole this is gonna be ....
 
aliens and alienation

I think it comes down to feeling we are increasingly ignored, exploited, and being replaced. It's all about aliens and alienation.

The illegal alien issue raises the spectre of confiscation of both political rights and property. Certainly that's inflammatory. No one likes to feel invaded, overwhelmed, threatened. That's basic.

Maybe of equal, or even greater, importance is what looks like the outright seizure of education, from K through 20 and beyond, by what might be defined as a leftwing political cult bent on indoctrination. If we worry about illegal aliens taking our jobs and recasting our culture, we will worry even more about teachers turning our own flesh and blood, our next generation, into "aliens" who no longer believe in the essential values that have brought us this far. It only takes one generation to lose a Republic, one generation to forget what it's all about, and if we've lost control of the schools, of the media, of entertainment we will soon find ourselves aliens within what used to be our own culture.
 
the flaw is in terminology; it is not a immigration, it is a migration. mcole
 
Dick Morris' Mistake
By Allan Wall
FrontPageMagazine.com | January 19, 2004

Dick Morris is legendary for shrewdness and political acumen. But his analysis in “Hispanics :
Key to GOP’s Future†is erroneous and
misleading. Either (1) Morris wasn’t thinking very hard when he wrote it, or (2) Morris is
working for the Clintons again, who are paying him to
give suicidal advice to the GOP.

The Bush Immigration Amnesty Proposal would be a disaster. It will increase and encourage
further illegal immigration. It will drive down
wages for the American working class. It will expand the reach of the welfare state. It will cost a
whole lot of money. It’s a slap in the face to the
Border Patrol agents who put their lives on the line every day to protect our border. It will further
erode national unity, promoting divisive
ethnic identity politics and balkanization. It’s a bad proposal all the way around.

All these noxious effects are irrelevant to Dick Morris, who assures us, against all available
evidence, that an illegal alien amnesty (or whatever
you choose to call it) will save the Republican Party!

Mr. Morris tells us that Hispanics must be pandered to by making our immigration system even
more harmful than it is already. If we would just
do what Hispanic activists tell us to do, says Morris, then Hispanics will fall into the arms of the
Republicans.

This is sheer fantasy. There is no solid reason to believe that, even if the GOP does all the
misguided things Morris wants it to, it will gain the
majority of the Hispanic vote.

Not that all Hispanics support illegal immigration. Those who don’t must be insulted by Morris’
assertions. And for those Hispanics who
already vote for the GOP out of conviction, the amnesty proposal has nothing to offer them.

Why should we believe that the majority of Hispanics who vote for the Democrats will become
Republicans if the GOP supports an amnesty?
That certainly wasn’t the result of the 1986 Amnesty, also enacted under a Republican
administration.

Why would lower-income Hispanics support the GOP? Democrats can always outbid
Republicans in offering more public benefits. The only
way for Republicans to win that game is to be even more leftist than Democrats. And that would
destroy the party.

Dick Morris also peddles the conventional wisdom that Hispanics are social conservatives.
According to Morris:

“As Catholic voters, who take their religion seriously, Hispanics are a natural Republican
constituency.â€

The truth is most Hispanics are nominal Catholics, with the same social and moral pathologies as
whites and blacks. In fact, Hispanic women
have higher rates of both out-of-wedlock births AND abortions than white and black women!

The Hispanic rate of welfare dependency is higher than whites and almost as high as blacks.
(Don’t believe it? Check out this article).
Immigrants from Mexico hail from a country with a strong secular political tradition. There is
simply no evidence that the majority of Hispanic
immigrants are attracted to social conservatism.

And if “Hispanics are a natural Republican constituency,†why aren’t they voting for the GOP
already? Because they want “benefits for illegal
immigrants� Sorry Dick this just doesn’t add up! The evidence indicates, in fact, that even
Hispanic Republicans are more in favor of taxing
and spending than white Democrats! (http://www.vdare.com/sailer/pew.htm)

Morris ignores today’s reality when he writes :

“As Hispanics follow the traditional paths of upward mobility that immigrant groups have trod
before them, they are likely to lean more and
more toward the Republicans - just as Irish and Italians do these days, abandoning the
Democratic orientation of their ancestors.â€

But the Irish and Italians came here when America practiced assimilation and Americanization.
Today’s ethnic pandering – of which Dick
Morris approves – encourages Hispanics NOT to assimilate and implies that Hispanic interests are
not identical with American interests, a very
dangerous idea indeed.

Are Hispanic interests the same as American interests? If they are, why not just treat Hispanic
voters like other Americans? If they aren’t the
same, maybe somebody should spell out the difference. Maybe all Americans, not just Hispanic
activists, should have a say in our country’s
future.

Dick Morris has an explanation as to why the GOP has heretofore failed to win the Hispanic vote:

“For decades, Republicans systematically alienated Hispanics by insisting on English-only
initiatives, opposing benefits for illegal immigrants
and demanding an end even to free public schools for the children of those who came here
illegally. These measures drove Hispanics into the
waiting arms of Democrats. Bush has now acted to reverse the legacy of these initiatives and to
welcome Hispanics into the GOP.â€

Morris is telling us that Republicans should abandon their principles and support lawlessness in
order to gain Hispanic votes. But the very
policies decried by Morris are proven vote-getters.

English-only initiatives are attempts to prevent the linguistic balkanization of our country. The
growing use of Spanish in politics, promoted
by both Republicans and Democrats, encourages politicians to say one thing in English and
another thing in Spanish. (For a detailed example,
click here ).

Immigration reduction is a proven vote-getter. Look at the recent California election. In a liberal
state, the majority of the electorate chose
candidates who were perceived to be tougher on immigration, and tossed out a governor who
followed exactly the policies Morris tells us will
help the GOP!

Near the end of the article, Morris falls into globalist pseudo-humanitarian claptrap: “America has
4 percent of the world's population but 25
percent of its wealth. It is incumbent on us to open our doors to those who seek upward
mobility.†So what are you suggesting, Dick? That we
open our doors to the entire 6-billion population of Planet Earth? Most countries in the world,
after all, are poorer than Mexico!

And speaking of Mexico, Morris informs us:

“ The only thing standing between subsistence and starvation in Mexico, and much of Central
America is the money sent home to needy
families by hard working men and women in the United States who tend our gardens, wash our
dishes and clean our floors.â€

On the contrary, mass emigration encourages the leaders of Mexico and other nations to postpone
economic reforms. Vicente Fox was widely
seen as a hope for change in Mexico when elected (with Dick Morris’ help) in 2000. Here it is
2004, and no substantive changes have been
made. But Fox is still agitating for the U.S. to open its border.

Emigration from Mexico to the U.S. breaks up families, encourages deadbeat dads to abandon
their children and gives Mexico’s leaders an
excuse to put off economic reforms. Do you really want to help Mexico?

Close the border and you’ll see Fox and the opposition get serious about reforms.

Not only will the Bush Proposal not win the Hispanic vote, it will likely lose votes among the
Republican base. American voter-taxpayers
outside the country club are fuming over this proposal. I’m not talking about the Hollywood Left
or other pathological Bush-haters. I´m talking
about ordinary Americans, faithful Republicans who voted for George W. Bush, who have
defended him, who supported the Iraq war. Many of
these people feel betrayed. They feel that Bush takes them for granted. Are their votes of no
value? President Bush believes they will vote
Republican come November because they have nowhere else to go. He might be surprised.

Morris is wrong. The Bush Proposal will not save the Republican party. It may instead help to
destroy it.

Allan Wall ([email protected]) is an American who lives and works in Mexico, and writes
for VDARE.com
(www.vdare.com ).
 
"Every Mexicano must become an enemy of the colonial settler state. Genocidal attacks against us escalated with the English-only movement. The police are glorified armies of occupation. The English-speaking settlers are trying to completely marginalize us by denying us a cultural and historical understanding of who we are - and the concentration camps are ready to [be used] against us. This is our homeland. We must create the revolutionary clandestine formations that will defend our people and lead to our ultimate national liberation struggle and the socialist reunification of Mexico. Let us create the conditions for the Mexican intifada."

--Voz Fronteriza, the MEChA student publication at U.C. San Diego

Any Palestinian sympathizers living in the southwest had better get ready for the shoe to switch feet.
 
There's plenty of issues.
Each of us will have a different priority.
In my case, I spent the morning going to a temp agency.
I stood in line to apply for, not a job, but a chance to be placed on a list in case one came up.
The MOST any of them pay is half of what I made on my last job.
When I was in the waiting room I noticed that it was broken down into two completely different launguages and cultures...
Vietnamese on one side, Mexican on the other.

When I walked out of the place, the first words out of my mouth were "damnit I want to go back to America" and this was in my hometown!
 
Table 3: Place Ranking — Percent of Population that is Foreign Born
Total Population

Rank Place Percent
1 Miami city, FL 60.6
2 Santa Ana city, CA 48.4
3 Los Angeles city, CA 41.3
4 Anaheim city, CA 40.3
5 San Francisco city, CA 36.7
6 San Jose city, CA 36.5
7 New York city, NY 36.0
8 Long Beach city, CA 30.9
9 Houston city, TX 28.1
10 San Diego city, CA 27.9


From U.S.Census Bureau
 
According to the survey, the foreign-born population grew to more than
33 million in 2002, slightly larger than the entire population of Canada.
Of the total U.S. population, 11.8 percent were foreign-born and accounted
for 44 percent of the nation's population growth last year. A majority of
the foreign-born reside in four states: California (28 percent), New York
(11.8 percent), Texas (9.8 percent) and Florida (8.9 percent).

"The growth of the nation's foreign-born population reflects how
attractive this country remains, both politically and economically, for
people around the world," said Kincannon.

Other survey highlights:

- The U.S. foreign-born population increased nearly 5 percent
between 2001 and 2002.

- About 52 percent of the nation's foreign-born population is from
Latin America, 27 percent from Asia and 15 percent from Europe.

- California (34.9 percent), New York (10.7 percent) and Texas
(6 percent) have the largest shares of foreign-born population from
Asia.

- Immigrants from Mexico comprise 30 percent of the nation's total
foreign-born population, nearly 70 percent of whom live in three
states: California (41 percent), Texas (21 percent)and Illinois
(7 percent).

- The largest share of the foreign-born population in New York comes
from the Caribbean (25.6 percent), followed by Asia (24.3 percent)
and Europe (20.5 percent).

- More than 74 percent of all foreign-born Cubans reside in Florida,
but Cubans represent just 22 percent of Florida's total
foreign-born population.

- More than half of the total foreign-born population from El Salvador
reside in just two states, California (40 percent) and Texas
(14 percent). Other states with high percentages of Salvadoran
foreign-born include New York (7 percent), Maryland (6.4 percent),
Florida (4.8 percent) and the District of Columbia (4.4 percent).

- In Midwestern states, Iowa's foreign-born population increased an
estimated 26 percent, to nearly 98,000 in 2002.

- Seventy-five percent of the foreign-born population in the West
lived in California.

U.S.Census Bureau
 
Quoting the Dick Morris article:

It will drive down wages for the American working class.

And THAT is the real "megafault" underlying everything else.

It's the real reason for the recent Bush "illegal alien" proposal, and a lot of other stuff. Folks, that effect of the illegal alien proposal, to Bush, isn't a "bug", it's a "feature".

Fact: US labor costs make us "non-competitive" with much of the rest of the planet. As more and more 3rd world nations get their stuff in gear enough to join the world economy the way Taiwan, S. Korea, Malaysia and the like have (the latter makes hard drives fer God's sake), the worse the US situation will get.

ALL gov't action over the past 20 years has had the effect of SLOOOOOWLY driving US worker income levels down, while keeping a smaller pool of VERY high end labor around to tax. The Federal Reserve Bank maintains unemployment at a certain level (5% or so) specifically in order to control labor costs.

The entire "dot-com boom" was an experiment in creating an "uber-wealthy geek class" which could be taxed like crazy and not even care! As an artificial construct of loose SEC rules and Federal Reserve nurturing, it was unstable as hell and blew up. Meanwhile, California in particular had collected unbelievable taxes, spent it ALL, and with income levels falling off a cliff have to hire friggin' AHNULD to figure out what to chop. Unbelievable, really. (Fact: at the height of the dot-com boom, late 1999/early 2000, California had 44,000 millionaires or better. We're down to 22,000 last I heard (mid-2003).

EVERY "fault line issue" raised by previous posters traces back, ultimately, to this income issue. Even the civil rights violations (Jose Padilla and the "Patriots") pave the way for the kind of iron control that the "bigwigs" of BOTH PARTIES think will be needed in case this long-term experiment in reduced expectations fails the way the dot-com boom did.

Gun control fits in too. The "problem" (for the powermongers) is that most state gov'ts are NOT playing along, outside of major urban areas like CA, NJ, NY, IL, etc. So the smaller states are bucking the gun control trend, making Federal control more difficult. Hence we've hit 37 shall-issue-or-better states, and proven in Alaska that shall-issue can step-stone to VT-carry.

It's all gonna be REAL interesting.
 
We've had periods in our history when the percentage of foreign born people was higher than it is now. It's a bit misleading to look at the numbers rather than the rates.
 
Fact: US labor costs make us "non-competitive" with much of the rest of the planet. As more and more 3rd world nations get their stuff in gear enough to join the world economy the way Taiwan, S. Korea, Malaysia and the like have (the latter makes hard drives fer God's sake), the worse the US situation will get.
Dispute! Yes US labor costs are higher. No debate. But when labor is a small percentage of your total cost structure it makes no sense to move your operations to another country to pick up one or two percentage points on costs. No. something else is at work.

That something else is the indirect cost of labor---health regulations, environmental regulations, safety regulations, and litigation risk premium. All are courtesy of fed.gov and every last one can not be ducked by your working stiff. Government mandated slavery is what it is caled.

When are we going to point the finger of blame for outsourcing squarely at the source of the problem; the federal government and its attempts to create a worker's utopia.

Grousing about high wages is a red herring.
 
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