Where did all the Thompsons go?

[spartanpride]

There seems to be a lot of surplus Garands and M1 Carbines floating around for sale, for fairly cheap because there are so many of them. Why aren't there any of the Thompsons used in WWII and Korea for sale somewhere? I would think that there would be just as many of those for sale as there are M1 Carbines. This would be perfect because they would be fairly cheap (the large amount of them) and they would of course be pre 86 so you could have a classic full auto open bolt Tommy! But where the heck are they all?

 

[Jeremy2171]

They weren't registered before '68 so they are now all parts kits or contraband...

 

[Eightball]

Non-registered NFA items, and if they were converted to semi-only somehow, they're still SBRs and thus non-registered NFA items.

Jeremy nailed it.

 

[Sam1911]

Agreed with Jeremy. If they weren't registered in civilian hands before 1986, they can't ever be registered to a civilian.

While the government sold off a great many Garands, 1903s, 1903A3s, and such as surplus, even directly to civilians through the DCM, I don't know of any significant programs to do such with automatic weapons.

Maybe some of the more knowledgeable surplus rifle fans can explain the path by which US government arms trickled out to civilians more completely than can I.

 

[Sam1911]

and if they were converted to semi-only somehow, they're still SBRs and thus non-registered NFA items.

And once a machine gun, always a machine gun, according to the ATF. You can't "denature" one except by destroying the receiver and starting again.

 

[MAKster]

Some of the Thompsons were given to allies. The rest of the U.S. inventory was destroyed.

 

[nbkky71]

Well... there were approximately 6 million M1 carbines made made and while I'm not sure of the exact figure for the Thompson, I'm sure it was far less. [anyone have a ballpark idea?]

Where did they go? They were given away to law enforecement agencies, other countries, foreign militaries or just destroyed.

Even if you found a stash of brand new Thompsons somewhere, they can't be entered into the NFA registry and thus unavailable for civilian ownership.

 

[FatChance]

When I was a kid growing up in Minnesota in the 50's, my neighbor buddy's dad showed us a Thompson he brought home after WW2. He said he didn't have any use for it, so he turned it into the local police station shortly afterwards.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

If they weren't registered in civilian hands before 1986, they can't ever be registered to a civilian.

Unless somehow we got the NFA to open up another amnesty period (been 24 years already) but I think the odds of that are probably about as likely as overturning the hughes amendment in the '86 FOPA. I'd love to see the hardware that comes out of hiding though! War bringbacks coming out of attics and AR makers running 24hr shifts to flood the market I have a feeling with the WWII generation dying off relatives may be finding smuggled MP40s and Thompsons in gramps' old foot locker.

 

[rcmodel]

Most of the military ones were given to our allies, or demilled with a cutting torch.

None were ever offered for sale to civilians, as machineguns were effectively banned without regestration & a $200 tax stamp after the National Firearms Act was passed in 1934.
$200 bucks was a heck of a lot of money in 1934!
About $3,100 bucks in todays money.

rc

 

[FuzzyBunny]

I'll bet there are ALOT out there in the u.s. but are put away.

The 1986 act needs to go away, repealed.

And on top of that I want an affordable silencer! It should be a law one is included with every firearms purchase if wanted. I see it as a hearing safety device. In Texas in the summer plugs and muffs get hot. Wonder if that can be included in the health care bill and called "The Hearing Protection Act"

Better yet just remove all silencer laws.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

You are not going to like this, but it's been historically recorded that several shiploads of Thompsons bound for Britain and Russia during WWII were sunk in the N. Atlantic by U-boats. Part of the Lend Lease cargos were thousand of Thompsons in the grease; never fired, cases and cases of them. What is worse, even if you found them, and they were intact, and you hauled them up as salvage, you could not bring them back into the U.S. due to firearms and import restrictions. Many Thompsons made it to the Soviet Union, but they never got the shipments of .45 ammo, so they were warehoused until recently (several years ago), when Thompson kits, cut off new condition guns, were brought back in to the U.S. as parts, before the "barrel" ban of late (kits could come in, less barrels, etc).

 

[Jeremy2171]

They got the ammo....the russians repacked them in the tuna cans and they were on the market about 5-10 years ago...

 

[Tommygunn]

Many Thompsons made it to the Soviet Union, but they never got the shipments of .45 ammo, so they were warehoused until recently (several years ago), when Thompson kits, cut off new condition guns, were brought back in to the U.S. as parts, before the "barrel" ban of late (kits could come in, less barrels, etc).

Yes; I own a "dummy" 1928 Thompson as a "wallhanger" that was given to the Russians. Really, we were giving them Stuart Light Tanks, which when manufactured were each issued a Thompson as a defense gun if the crew had to get out, and these simply remained in the tanks as the Russkies got them. The Russkies took 'em out, and as they didn't have .45, they cosmolined them and crated them, and stored them in a cave. After the war they were kind enough to transfer them to a warehouse *flashforward* and the USSR crumbles into the Russian Republic and the country in eastern europe where this happens is freed and they find these guns, return 'em to the U.S., where due to our
*(*^$(^& laws the receivers are destroyed, and some clever entrepeneuer gets the clever idea of buying up the other parts, having aluminun fake receivers CNC'd and sticking on the real parts, and selling them cause there's always someone out there who's willing to buy expensive useless things.
.........

 

[madcratebuilder]

You can find a Thompson smg with little trouble. There are several shops and individuals that deal in NFA stuff, all you need for a tommy gun is about 15k. I saw a few at the last gun show I was at, 12.5k for a beater.

 

[Shung]

tommyguns are quite common here... I know 5 of my friends that own one, and another one owns 3 of them !

too bad they cannot return in their homeland.

 

[Afy]

They are quite a few floating around in France as well.
Never did fancy one, so dont have one personally.

 

[eight433]

I "do not" remember somebody in my youth telling me that his grandfather "did not" have 3 of them stashed from HIS father, who "was not" involved in mob activity in the 20's. I still wonder if this may be true. Seems a bit out there, but the guy has never given me any reason to doubt him before, so who knows... I lost contact with him many many years ago.

 

[gunnie]

rcmodel,

i have read and enjoyed many of your postings, and even learned much from them.

but the thompson was a WWI weapon, and as such was sold well before the "gangsta" act of '34. i have read the BAR was more favored by the mob anyway, except for use in a car. (so much for "the untouchables" credibility)

one could buy them in ANY store that wanted to sell'em before that. i don't like quoting "wiki", due to info from less than qualified sources they print, but feel this is closer to the cause of rarity for pre '34 commercial models.

below from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thompson_submachine_gun

"...The Thompson first entered production as the M1921. It was available to civilians, though its high price resulted in few sales. (A Thompson M1921 with one Type XX 20 shot "stick" magazine was priced at $200.00 when a Ford automobile sold for $400.00.)..."

gunnie

 

[Sam1911]

gunnie I think you and rcmodel are talking past each other.

Yes, both the BAR and Thompson were available for civilian sales before 1934. But, as you've quoted, there wasn't much of a civilian market because the guns cost a whole lot of money and very few average citizens had any interest in an automatic rifle. Certainly not enough interest to spend the kind of money they cost.

If you think about it, a 1928 Thompson probably cost about as much in 1928 as a lower-valued one does now -- after the Hughes Amendment inflation. Nowadays there's a sizable hobbyist shooter population that will put large chunks of "disposable income" into such a thing. In the '20s-'30s, "disposable income" was not a common phenomenon.

I think what rcmodel was saying with "none were ever offered for sale to civilians" was that the military never sold surplus machine guns directly to civilians -- not that they weren't available through gun dealers or direct sales.

Of course, without the benefit of "surplus" rifle pricing, very few military weapons of any kind would have been purchased by civilians at any time. I paid $265 for my M1 Garand from the DCM just before the CMP arrived on the scene. No manufacturer could sell a complex and high-quality arm like that for so little. Sure there are millions of them (and 1903s and 1917s, and Mausers, and Enfields, and K-31s, and Mosins, etc., etc.) in civilian hands, but if they'd all been priced at "market value" instead of surplus/scrap prices, they'd mostly still be in government warehouses the world over.

No gov't surplus machine guns = very few machine guns ending up in civilian hands. Fast forward to 1986 and the government says, "YOU CAN'T," and all of a sudden everyone wants one and folks will pay $40,000 for a pristine Thompson with pedigree.

 

[Exposure]

gunnie-

I believe rcmodel was referring to military Thompsons that, unlike Garands and M1 Carbines, were never available on the surplus market. The Thompson never made it to WWI and was pressed into service during WWII. Although there were a fair number produced prior to 1934 they took many years to sell due to their high cost. If it wasn't for WWII and the mass production of the Thompson it would have been little more than an interesting footnote in firearms history.

I own a beautiful Model 1928 that is an absolute BLAST to shoot. Nothing else draws a crowd at the range like a Thompson! Having said that I would never want to carry one into battle! It is heavy, rather awkward, and fires only a pistol caliber cartridge. But, it sure is cool!

Here she is in WWII trim with horizontal fore grip and stick mag. I have the vertical grip and drums mags but like this look the best!



And a short video of the old girl making some noise at the range.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPn-xHUbNlU

As far as what happened to them all, well we did give a lot away on the "lend-lease" program. Several years ago a treasure trove of them were found sealed in a cave in Russia. The only way they can come back to the states is as a parts kit. It disgusts me to be honest, American equipment, built by American craftsmen, and GIVEN away can't be brought home intact. That is just wrong. I have one of the parts kits as spares for my 1928. It had definitely never been fired and had simply sat in a crate for years before meeting up with the chop saw. Yes you read that right, a chop saw brought this beautiful Thompson to its end after sitting in its grease for 60+ years waiting to do its thing. Here is a pic of the barrel and receiver nose section from my parts kit, never a round through it, just a chop saw straight through the ejection port.

 

[Tommygunn]

Exposure --
yeah, that destruction makes me get p'o'd as well. I recently got the "nose" end of a Thompson w/o barrel just like what is in your picture, just as a piece of bric a brac or paperweight. Thought I'd atleast save a piece of one from the vagaries of our history ......
Happy shooting with your 1928. I agree with you I wouldn't want to carry one in a war ... but I grew up as a kid in the '60s watching COMBAT! and Sgt. Saunders carry one identical to yours and that is what first triggered my interest in this iconic old American firearm.

 

[desidog]

Not to mention that the Thompson cost more to manufacture...that's why they came up with the M3 "grease-gun" later in the war.

Exposure; you split my head with that post.

 

[Hatterasguy]

You are not going to like this, but it's been historically recorded that several shiploads of Thompsons bound for Britain and Russia during WWII were sunk in the N. Atlantic by U-boats.

If I remember correctly the Brit's ordered 400k and only 100k made it. The Germans sent the others to the bottom.

I work with a guy who had one until about 10 years ago, found out it wasn't legal and gave it to the police. Some cop probably has it now.:banghead:

When I told them what they are worth now he turned white.

 

[Heavenlyfire]

There is one for sale at the range I go to. 1927 says it has never been shot for $995 firm no trades. All I saw was a picture but it did look pretty dam nice.