Which .223 for HD?

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kis2

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Hello all,

This purchase won't be happening for awhile, but what .223 semi would you recommend for HD? I would just ask which AR15, but I didn't want to limit it in case someone has a better idea (sig?). I'm new to the ar15/223 semi game.

I want:
16" barrel or less
Light Weight
Ergonomic
Under $1k (without optics, rifle must be capable of a mount)

It would be great if I could take it to the range and shoot some nice groups as well. And if anyone can recommend some ammo to limit over penetration, that'd be appreciated.

Anytime there is 'HD' in the thread title, folks tend to get off topic, so please limit your suggestions to .223 semi's.

thanks all!
 
Rifles worth looking at that meet your criteria (and not likely an exhaustive list)

BCM AR 15 (or upper and BCG on whatever lower you please)

Colt AR (should be able to find one close to 1K)

Other ARs: I put a Noveske Basic 16" upper on a complete lower I had for under $1k

Sig 556

MSAR STG 556


I think one of the biggest advantages of the AR is that most carbine courses are heavily slanted to that weapon system. Knowing how to run a weapon is critical if it is a defensive weapon.

Of those listed I wouldn't trade my Noveske upper gun for any of the others (some of which I have/had). That said I got some good prices on things to put that gun together for a grand. A BCM gun will be easier to meet your budget with and probably the route I would go. I would shop around for a lower and the parts to complete it. Then get a BCM upper receiver group without hand guards. I'd put a MOE hand guard on it and fill it with a BCM BCG. Should give you a solid rifle that meets your requirements.
 
I can't keep in your budget, but I would get a nice little 10.5in LWRC, SBR it, and run 77 grain SSA or Hornady Tap rounds in it. Might as well throw a NV capable Eotech on top while your at it.:D
 
Any 16" AR that's properly put together with quality parts, and a quality flash suppressor (not a brake). Don't forget a light and good magazines (my own preference is Magpul PMAG's).

As to ammo choice, I personally like Federal 55gr JHP since i live in the suburbs (penetrates less than 9mm JHP), but a lot of people like the heavier 77gr loads too. I would say that the majority of civilian JHP's and SP's over 50 grains would be fine.
 
Kel Tec PLR 16. It's a pistol on steroids. I think it's got a nine inch barrel. It takes any AR mags. You can get one with all the fixins (sling, muzzle break, fore end) for $600. I've got one. It is awesome to shoot, and very compact. Much easier for HD than an AR would be. Gives you the knock down power of the AR with the ease of maneuvering of a pistol
 
For me that trade off is one of sight radius. I can get on target much faster with a rifle I can throw to my shoulder than a pistol I have to hold out. I won't say I'm not considering a pistol type variant, but a carbine may be more up my ally.

I really like bravo company's m4 mod 2, with the full rail, ready for optics and flashlight with the 16" barrel... just a little too expensive.

thanks for the recommendations so far guys!
 
Ruger Mini-14's in the 580+ series are good rifles.They function well and good accuracy. These are very dependable. barrel lengths can be gotten at 16 1/2".below that length,Federal law is violated and velocity loss can be significant.Byron
 
Sorry but a riffle for home defense? These are Zombies coming up the lawn right... Just thinking that a 3 yard shot at a BG will probably still go through a wall and one of your kids.
 
Sorry but a riffle for home defense? These are Zombies coming up the lawn right... Just thinking that a 3 yard shot at a BG will probably still go through a wall and one of your kids.
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.223 JHP and SP designed for quick expansion typically penetrates less in drywall and gelatin than 9mm, .40, and .45 JHP and 00 or 000 buckshot. It's a good choice.

Now granted, *any* firearm will shoot through a single interior wall. But .223 JHP/SP generally goes through fewer of them.
 
kis2 said:
For me that trade off is one of sight radius. I can get on target much faster with a rifle I can throw to my shoulder than a pistol I have to hold out. I won't say I'm not considering a pistol type variant, but a carbine may be more up my ally.

I really like bravo company's m4 mod 2, with the full rail, ready for optics and flashlight with the 16" barrel... just a little too expensive.

thanks for the recommendations so far guys!
Click to expand...
If getting up on sight quickly is your concern, throw an eotech 512 on top of it. That'll make the target acquistion as fast as any rifle. You can get them for less than $400. so add that to the $600 you spent for the gun, and you're still under your $1k. A quality AR is going to cost you almost $1K, and you don't get optics with it.
 
touche avs, touche. I will certainly consider it. have you had any issues with it? I realize I posted about HD, but have you shot any groups at any distance with it? Thanks for the suggestion

benEzra, you beat me to the post, thank you.

YHM's 'entry level carbine' weighs in at just over 6lbs! I like that a lot and it's ready to mount optics... just over 1k though. and I can't find it as a complete rifle anywhere. might just be my search skills though.
 
http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/item/Chrome-Lined-Bargain-Bin-16-inch-M4-1490

Around $300 left over (after shipping, transfer) for a BUIS and magazines.

I use 75gr Hornady TAP.

Gives you the knock down power of the AR with the ease of maneuvering of a pistol
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Outside of my car (which I'll add is huge), I dont have any issues maneuvering with my AR.

One of the HD carbine's advantages, is being a shoulder fired weapon, which is easier to get hits with than a pistol.

And having had optics on pistols and rifles, target acquisition isnt just as fast. As a matter of fact, I'm faster with irons on a rifle than I am optics on a pistol.
 
kis2 said:
touche avs, touche. I will certainly consider it. have you had any issues with it? I realize I posted about HD, but have you shot any groups at any distance with it? Thanks for the suggestion

benEzra, you beat me to the post, thank you.

YHM's 'entry level carbine' weighs in at just over 6lbs! I like that a lot and it's ready to mount optics... just over 1k though. and I can't find it as a complete rifle anywhere. might just be my search skills though.
Click to expand...
I've never measured the groups, but I keep all my shots on a sillouette target at 100 yds with iron sights. If you go this route, get the sling. When you get up on target, push the gun out, and the sling helps to stabalize it. Almost like pulling a rifle against your shoulder when you shoot it.
 
Outside of my car (which I'll add is huge), I dont have any issues maneuvering with my AR.

One of the HD carbine's advantages, is being a shoulder fired weapon, which is easier to get hits with than a pistol.

And having had optics on pistols and rifles, target acquisition isnt just as fast. As a matter of fact, I'm faster with irons on a rifle than I am optics on a pistol.
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This mirrors my own experience. I'm not saying that a .223 pistol isn't an effective HD weapon (it undoubtedly is), but it is important to consider whether the tradeoffs make sense in your own situation.

The biggest tradeoff IMO is indeed the lack of a stock, which means you can't just throw the firearm up to a firing position and automatically be looking through the reticle, at least without a lot of practice. Losing the reticle during recoil or transitions would also seem more of a problem sans stock.

The other big issue with short-barreled .223's is muzzle blast and muzzle flash, which from a 9.5" barrel w/brake could probably be categorized as "astounding." In my own situation, that would be a downside for a HD gun. A 16" barrel will have considerably lower peak dB and much less flash.

One final tradeoff, albeit one less important at HD range, is ballistics. From what I'm seeing, it looks like most loads that do 2950-3000 ft/sec out of a 16" barrel are doing about 2350-2400 out of a 9.5". This results in lower energy, less expansion/fragmentation, and increased penetration.

The pistol is, however, much easier to store and transport, and this can outweigh the other tradeoffs in some situations. You just have to assess what your own priorities are.
 
Much easier for HD than an AR would be. Gives you the knock down power of the AR with the ease of maneuvering of a pistol
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No you really don't. I have shot and handled the PLR on a number of occasions. You do not get the "knock down power" of a 16" AR. I've run the PLR over my chrono and the velocity loss is significant. Further I do not know anyone who has learned how to properly handle an AR that thinks it is unwieldy or difficult to manuever with. The PLR is not as easy to wield as a traditional handgun. The AR is the easier of the two to shoot well and quickly in my experience (even using the Israeli sling method with the PLR). If I was concerned about size I'd rather have an SBR AR, or even an SBR PLR for that matter.

This next comment will probably upset some folks but I'll offer it anyways. The build quality of the kel tec is far below the weapons mentioned in my earlier post (including any nicer AR). THe thing that has always kept me from getting a PLR (I thought an SBR one might be fun) is that I've questioned how hard of use it can handle. Reading on the KTOG forum (which is zealously pro kel tec btw) has lead me to believe that there seems to be issues when you get the thing hot. Not an issue to take a few shots, but definitely an issue if you are going to train hard with the gun and push yourself and your equipment.

Lastly the muzzle blast, flash and noise from a PLR is spectacular. Not something I would want to touch off indoors if I didn't have to. Also being a 9" barrel it is not a good host for a suppressor which might cure that problem.

In sum, I have nothing against the PLR per se, but I would look else where for a serious HD weapon.

I'm sure people will debate this point. I suggest they do the following if possible. Go to an area where you can shoot but are not stuck shooting on a square range from stagnant positions. Take a shot timer. Set up various shooting scenarios. See how you do with each. As the say the proof is in the pudding. For me I wouldn't chose the PLR even with a RDS or holographic sight over any of the rifles in my previous post.
 
If getting up on sight quickly is your concern, throw an eotech 512 on top of it. That'll make the target acquistion as fast as any rifle
Click to expand...

I have shot the PLR with an eotech and I disagree. Particular if we are talking about aquiring multiple targets in succession. Or moving targets. I've used both to shoot jackrabbits which requires quick target acquisition at targets that suddenly present themselves and often are gone quickly as well. Again if one is shooting while moving I think the stocked weapon again has a notable advantage Then again no need to debate or rely on what I have found is tru for me simply take the shot time and see for yourself.

You can get them for less than $400. so add that to the $600 you spent for the gun, and you're still under your $1k.
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I actually think 400 plus 600 is equal to 1000 not less than it :D
 
Girodin - We're talking about home defense, not shooting jackrabbits. If I hear an intruder in the middle of the night, the longest shot in my house is going to be approximately seven yards. The difference in muzzle velocity at that distance is not going to be significant to affect a knock down power. If you hit someone center mass with a .223 at seven yards, he's going down, whether it's coming out of a 9 inch barrel or a 16 inch barrel.

The original topic was about HD. When I think of a home defense situation, I'm probably not going to be shooting on the move. I'll use my walls as concealment. As far as needing to "acquire multiple targets in succession," this does not really apply to home defense. I would think in most houses, if a gun is kept somewhere in a bedroom, you will probably have an encounter with an intruder maybe in a hallway. The need to move the gun around a lot to acquire your targets will not be a big deal for this, as the bad guys will be walking down a narrow hallway, and they would all be close together.

Also, "less than $400" + $600 is "less" than $1k. I'm not necessarily saying the PLR 16 is better than an AR, I'm just saying for the criteria Kis2 laid out, it would be a vary viable option. At about a $600 price tag, it would leave him options to accessorize the gun as he saw fit. A good AR is going to run him right at his $1k limit, which means he gets the gun and that's it. He can't customize it until he gets some more $$$.
 
I have a couple Bushmasters set up with Red Dots and Streamlight laser/lights for HD.
I sight in the Red Dot and laser at 50 yards, as my HD could be 50 yards or further.
M4withStreamlight.gif


I also have a couple Kel Tec PLR 16s. Although the PLR would make a good HD or car gun for someone that knew how to use it, it's a poor choice because of the ear shattering muzzle blast.
I keep loaded magazines in the PLRs just on the off chance I would ever have to grab one but there is also a set of ear muffs on top of the safe.
PLRCarbinesling.gif
 
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