Which .38+P Snubby Carry Load?

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I see 110gr & 125gr JHP's and 158gr LSWCHP's all marketed as defense ammo.

Is heavier *always* better, even with the slower velocity out of a snubby barrel?

What do you choose to carry in your snubby, and why? Thanks! :cool:
 
You will get endless advice and arguments about what is "the best," but I would suggest that you pick the one(s) that shoot closest to the point of aim in your particular revolver, and to find that out you will have to do a bit of shooting using different brands and bullet weights.

A .38 Special snubby is many things, but a powerhouse it isn't, and if it was you’d have trouble hitting anything. As it is the key thing is to deliver the bullet precisely to where it will instantly disable an assailant.

Always keep in mind that the legal “rules of engagement” allows the attacker to start before you can respond. Thus that person will always have the advantage, which you can only offset with a quick but accurate hit or hits – and a snubby is about the hardest to do that with, out of any handgun you might pick.
 
I usually carry whatever shoots closest to point of aim in my guns. I figure if I can't hit what I shoot at it won't matter what ammo I shoot.

I have several snubnose revolvers and have used Cor-Bon 158 grain LSWCHPs, Federal Nyclad 125 grainers, (both out of production) and standard velocity Cor-Bon 110 grain DPX HPs (copper bullets with deep hollowpoints) replaced with 110 grain +P loads.

I have also used Winchester 130 grain FMJs for practice. They shot very well in my Smith M649, so I may buy some Winchester 130 grain SPX and see how they shoot in my gun. Another possibility is the Speer 135 grain JHPs. They are supposed to be loaded for short-barreled guns. I haven't seen any locally yet, so will have to get them from Midway USA or another Net outlet.
 
I really like the 158 grain LSWCHP. Recoil isn't bad and they have a good track record.

Buf. Bore has come out with some special loads specifically designed for use in snubs, but I haven't found any locally yet to test them. On paper at least they look very impressive.
 
The heavier bullets have more recoil. This slows you down for follow up shots. I've tried about 14 different types of ammo in mine, and the most accurate and easiest recoil +p's I've found so far are the PMC starfire 125gn+p and what I currently use, The Speer Gold Dot 125gn+p. I haven't tried the Hydra-shocks yet, but I'm sure any of the premium brands are good. I've had bad luck with the Winchesters. They flew all over the place in my snub and my inlaws as well. The magtech premium rounds were not the accurate as well. The Corbons were simply brutal. I swear they kicked more than some of the 357 loads(My snub is a 357). Whatever you get, make sure it works well in your gun. If it takes buying several different brands and trying them out against each other, than so be it.
 
I usually carry whatever shoots closest to point of aim in my guns. I figure if I can't hit what I shoot at it won't matter what ammo I shoot.


thats about the best advise.........but i'll throw in what ever you can shoot the fastest and most accurately.

remember, if they were all single shots i'd take a .44mag.
 
Federal +P 158gr lead SWCHP in a Crimson Trace equipped S&W J frame.

The Federal +P does 747fps from a 2 inch barrel.
The Speer +P 125gr GD JHP does 858fps.
The MagTech +P 125gr JHP does 825fps.
The Winchester +P 125gr JHP does 802fps.

All things considered I trust the heavier almost non expanding bullet the most in the short barrels.
And I like the accuracy of a lead SWC bullet in the 38 Special.

38SWlaser25yards.gif
 
I like the Speer 135 grain Short Barrel load, since it doesn't have the flash and blast of other .38 +P loads, which I find more of a distaction than the recoil.
 
I like the Remington +P LSWCHP out of my S&W 642. The recoil doesn't bother me that much and with the soft heavier bullet I get decent penetration and any expansion is a bonus.
 
Speer, CorBon

Speer 135gr. +P JHP and Corbon 110gr. DPX. Both do very well in gelatin tests through clothing with good expansion and penetration.

The DPX (deep penetrating Xbullet) will punch thru car bodies, and is also available in standard pressure. The speer was originally designed for snubbies at the request of NYPD (yes, they still carry them).:cool:
 
I've been carrying Winchester 158 +P LSWCHP for decades. I just trust it. I like the weight, and that soft lead is GONNA expand. Heck, they'll deform if you drop 'em on the sidewalk.

StrikeEagle

ps No, they're not a lot of fun to shoot in my 642... :uhoh:
 
The lead hollowpoint 158+Ps come in several flavors:

* The Federals are too slow. Federal sometimes wimps out on powder charges and this is one definate example. At around 750fps, expansion would take a gift from God.

* Winchesters and Remingtons are 99% identical, speeds up around 825ish from a snubbie, enough for expansion (usually, anyways). Remmies are rumored to be just a hair hotter but nothing I'd worry about. Winchesters are easier to find. Both are good loads, low 800s and capable of expansion.

* The Cor-Bon out-of-stock flavor is a rocket, capable of nearly 1,000fps from a snub. Not for a weak gun or one that can take only a limited +P diet.

* Buffalo Bore now sells a load much like the Cor-Bon except gas-checked, which means less barrel cleanup, doesn't otherwise affect performance. It's been clocked at a genuine 1,000fps from an S&W snub by Buffalo Bore; BB's stated performance numbers have been tested as accurate numerous times. This load may be slightly lower pressure than the Cor-Bon as it uses newer powders, however I would still restrict it to tougher 38 guns.

I own a very tight, very accurate late '70s production Charter Arms Undercover of mixed steel and aluminum construction. I would not feed it the Cor-Bon or BuffBore 158grain loads.

Other stuff:

* The Cor-Bon DPX 110 might be the best non-plus-P load out there. If you're putting a classic into carry service, esp. if you have a longer than 2" barrel for more speed, this is a strong option. Carrying a 1940s-era S&W M&P with a 6" pencil barrel? This stuff may be the answer if the elevation isn't too far off.

* The Speer 135gr +P has a LOT of potential. Stout load, though probably not as gnarly as the BuffBore or Cor-Bon 158s. Have a weaker gun like my old Charter Arms? Think this one over carefully. I have *grudgingly* decided against for that Charter Arms.

* The Winchester 130gr Supreme +P is another "giant hollowpoint cavity" jacketed round and has a good rep. This is what my Charter is going to live with and what it's loaded with right this minute.

* The various Speer 125+P Gold Dots weren't bad either, although the 135 is better. Georgia Arms, Black Hills and others load these to good effect. Buffalo Bore has a rocket-chair version that's another "strong gun only" load.

* Cor-Bon's 110+P is a rocket, another "strong gun load". Good rep from snubbies.

These are the loads I trust (except for that Federal).

Due to their construction, Gold Dots tend to be accurate - the jacket is actually a plating process over the lead, uniformly bonded to it.

Hornady's loads don't expand well from snubbies in 38+P. I avoid them completely.

The Federal 110gr Hydrashock in standard pressure (no +P) looks good but it's another "wimp special".

Finally, whenever I say "strong gun load" above, I'm talking about strong 38Spl guns. ALL 357s can safely and comfortably shoot all of the above with one exception: the superlight Scandium S&W and possibly the Titanium Tauruses (all with gun weights between 12.5oz and 15oz) may be so light, the lead 158 projectiles may "pull" from the shell on recoil, disabling the gun completely. This is a known issue with super-light guns; Speer claims to have set up the 135+P to eliminate that possibility. Lead being slick, even the Winchester and Remmie 158+P lead loads may "pull" in a superlight gun; the Cor-Bon and BuffBore 158s it gets closer to dead certain.

My Charter is around 17oz and has never pulled a round - I've shot most of the above in it except for the Speer 135, the Cor-Bon 158+P and 110DPX and the BuffBores.
 
I use both Winchester and Corbon +P 125 JHPs in my .357 snubby. They shoot pretty close to point of aim, and they're controlable as well.
 
Jim March said:
The lead hollowpoint 158+Ps come in several flavors:

* Winchesters and Remingtons are 99% identical, speeds up around 825ish from a snubbie, enough for expansion (usually, anyways). Remmies are rumored to be just a hair hotter but nothing I'd worry about. Winchesters are easier to find. Both are good loads, low 800s and capable of expansion.

I got a chronometer for Christmas and the Remington load was one of the first ones I used to try it out. From a S&W 642, they averaged around 860. You're right, they are a bit tough to find. I had my local shop order them at about $30/box of 50.
 
I recently did some shootability and accuracy testing with various 38special carry loads for my new M37.

158gr SWC-HP (Winchester): Good accuracy and acceptable recoil, but POI was several inches high. I don't know if it's a gun problem, shooter problem or what. Stoppingpower.net's gel test shows good penetration but poor expansion in gel. I can't find the test results for this load at Stoppingpower.net. Disapointing since this load does so well in my old M36.

Winchester White Box +P 125gr HP: Good accuracy, POI and POA are the same. Lower recoil than the 158gr SWC-HP. Inexpensive ($14 at wallyworld). Lots of flash in dim light.
From stoppingpower.net:
10% Ballistic Gelatin Tests for:
Winchester .38 Spl 125 gr +p JHP – Personal Defense
Testing Platform:
S&W 640
Barrier:
Four Layers of Denim
TEST RESULTS:
Round # 1:
Penetration: 14.75”
Recovered Weight: 117.8 gr.
Expansion*: .625 cal.



Speer 135gr +P Gold Dot (Short Barrel): Great accuracy, POI only slightly higher than POA at 7yds. Recoil slightly higher than 125gr load listed above. NO FLASH IN DIM LIGHT. This was the deciding factor for me. It's twice as expensive as the WWB 125 load, but I'm not going to be shooting many of these, so it's not that important.
From stoppingpower.net:
10% Ballistic Gelatin Tests for:
Speer .38 Spl 135 gr +p GDHP
Testing Platform:
S&W 640
Barrier:
Four Layers of Denim
TEST RESULTS:
Round # 1:
Penetration: 12.25”
Recovered Weight: 134.2 gr.
Expansion*: .586 cal.


Here's the results from Stoppingpower.net's test of the Buffalo Bore 158gr load:
From stoppingpower.net:
10% Ballistic Gelatin Tests for:
Buffalo Bore .38 Spl 158 gr +p LHP
Testing Platform:
S&W 640
Barrier:
Four Layers of Denim
TEST RESULTS:
Round # 1:
Penetration: 8.50”
Recovered Weight: 120.5 gr.
Expansion*: .468 cal.
Kind of surpising, isn't it? Based on that, the price, and the possible effects on small revolvers, I'd stay away from it. I haven't seen testing on the other load based on the GD bullet.

Chris
 
I'm having trouble with point of aim in any of the +P 130 and under loads. I'm shooting a S&W 638. (Shooting Low) I have found that 148 HBWC's shoot to point of aim so do 158 grn RND noses. Anyone having these issues? If so what do you use?
Jim
 
JMusic said:
I'm having trouble with point of aim in any of the +P 130 and under loads. I'm shooting a S&W 638. (Shooting Low) I have found that 148 HBWC's shoot to point of aim so do 158 grn RND noses. Anyone having these issues? If so what do you use?
Jim
Most 38special revolvers with fixed sights are regulated for POI to match the sights with 158gr loads. Loads lighter than that will print lower, loads heavier than 158gr will print higher. My M37 is the only one I've seen that didn't match that.

Chris
 
And to make this worse, the ribbed barrel on the little J-frames leaves the front sight blade so low that you can't really file it down to raise the point of impact. Being able too do so was one advantage of my old "pencil barreled" Colt Detective Special. So like others I sometimes end up with 148 grain wadcutters or 158 grain LSWHP's.
 
One of the reasons I don't own a Airlite Ti or Sc J-frame is that I've always preferred one of the various LSWCHP/LHP +P loads. That's why I bought a 642-1 when I wanted something lighter than my older 649 & SP-101.

I've shot just about every .38 Spl load & bullet weight/type I could find at one time or another over the years.

While they were in standard production I often carried either Federal Nyclad 125gr +P or Nyclad 158gr LSWCHP +P, although I also carried the standard W-W 158gr LSWCHP +P, too (38SPD). Still do, from time to time, although I mainly switched over to the Rem version a few years ago because it replaced the W-W version in our revolver ammunition inventory.

I also carried the W-W 147gr JHP +P until it was discontinued, too.

After witnessing some gel testing with the then-newly-released Speer Gold Dot 135gr +P, fired out of a short-barreled Sc J-frame, I decided to switch over to it for my primary load. I won't be getting rid of my supply of W-W & Rem LHP +P loads any time soon, though.

The 'arguably best' ammunition available won't be of much practical use if the user can't accurately hit the intended target, however, and a lot of folks find they prefer a .38 load which isn't +P, for controllability and recoil management reasons. I used to have some factory gel test figures from W-W (dated 2002, I think) which seemed to show some decent potential for their 110gr standard pressure STHP (SilverTip).

Also, some folks might find they prefer the extra weight of the steel-framed snub revolvers, too, instead of one of the various lighter weight models.

The wealth of models offered in the little 5-shot snub revolvers, in all their variations, and the increasing types of ammunition being produced for the .38 Spl nowadays, offer the potential customer the opportunity for some real head-scratching ... :)
 
fastbolt said:
One of the reasons I don't own a Airlite Ti or Sc J-frame is that I've always preferred one of the various LSWCHP/LHP +P loads. That's why I bought a 642-1 when I wanted something lighter than my older 649 & SP-101.

Is my 15oz. 442-1 light enough that I should worry about 'pulling' lead bullets if shooting the +P 158gr ammo?

Jacketed bullets don't have the pulling problem, correct? So no sweat with the 135gr Speer or DPX 110gr Cor-Bon std pressure or +P I'm guessing?

I noticed on the Airlite Sc guns the barrel was marked .38+P Jacketed, so now it makes sense.
 
I would think that if anything the airweight would regulate higher with +P rounds if recoil was an issue. I don't find the gun any harder to shoot than say a S&W 36 or Detective Special. I would prefer the highest velocity HP's I can find but I am a stickler on point of aim.
Jim
 
fastbolt said:
The wealth of models offered in the little 5-shot snub revolvers, in all their variations, and the increasing types of ammunition being produced for the .38 Spl nowadays, offer the potential customer the opportunity for some real head-scratching ... :)
Oh, we're talking about 5 shot snubbies? Sorry, mine is a 7 shooter. ;)
 
I was told that when S&W started using the lighter weight titanium cylinders in their first .38 Spl Ti J-frames, they discovered that the guns were suddenly just enough lighter than their steel-cylindered, aluminum-framed models that they could sometimes encounter lead bullets jumping the crimp. The potential was there, so they specified jacketed ammunition in the Airlites, and then also in the Airlite Sc guns (having the same titanium cylinders).

That's why I wanted the Airweight with the steel cylinder, so I could still use lead bullets ... and I simply preferred the stainless cylinder/barrel.

Now, it seems the newest generation of the Sc J-frames may be approaching the point where technology and 'human' engineering (strength & skills) may not always combine to bring about the optimal, desired result for some folks ...

For instance, I was told by someone at the factory that they'd learned of a complaint from the owner of one of their .357 Magnum rated Airlite J-frames involving jacketed bullets jumping the crimp and binding the cylinder, apparently with 158gr jacketed .357 Magnum ammunition. The gun was checked and found to be in proper working order and without problems. Since S&W takes customer complaints seriously, they did some further testing.

They discovered that if the Sc J-frame wasn't held in a properly strong & firm grip that it might sometimes be possible for some of the harder recoiling, heavy-bullet Magnum loads to generate enough recoil to result in bullet jump, even with jacketed ammunition. The combination of the lightweight gun moving rearward under recoil ... not properly supported by a strong, stable grip ... combined with the weight of a heavy bullet, even jacketed ... and inertia ... apparently might still result in bullet jump. Depends on the shooter.

In other words, it might be possible for someone to 'limp-wrist' one of the Sc Magnum J-frames with the wrong combination of grip strength/technique and heavy bullet Magnum ammunition. Apparently, according to the fellow I was discussing this with, this sort of thing hadn't been encountered during R&D, seemingly because the test shooting hadn't considered limp-wristing. These little powerhouses require a properly applied, strong grip.

Maybe it's a case of being welcomed to the world of some folks 'being able' to limp-wrist (and/or improperly grip) some polymer-framed pistols and experience functioning issues. Then there are the other folks who just don't understand how it's possible to limp-wrist a polymer-frame pistol and cause a malfunction, because they've never experienced it. Maybe their skill sets, techniques and physical abilities just didn't combine to create the potential where they could experience it ... not without a lot of deliberate effort, anyway.

Personally, whenever I've shot Magnum ammunition from a couple of Sc J-frames I was really hanging on, and couldn't imagine using a looser, more relaxed grip or unlocked wrist.

We've all probably encountered folks who seemingly didn't easily understand what a firmly locked wrist really was, or why their grip couldn't start relaxing the moment they 'finished pulling' the trigger. Some folks may be gifted with superior hand & eye coordination and reaction time at birth, but learned skills & techniques are still learned ...

Bottom line? I don't have the answers to these sorts of questions.

All I know is that when I've repeatedly asked different folks at S&W if I could use 158gr LHP +P ammunition in my 642-1, I was told that it was rated for use with +P ammunition, and that lead bullets were considered appropriate for that model.

Something I keep in mind, however, is that S&W, like other firearms manufacturers, doesn't have any direct control over the ammunition produced by ammunition manufacturers, or what's selected and used by the customers who buy and shoot their handguns. I prefer to use only new, high quality ammunition produced by one of the major manufacturers, which suits whatever recommendations/restrictions are made by S&W, and I try to give each round at least a cursory visual & tactile inspection before I load it in my guns.

I dislike cleaning lead out of the cylinder charge holes, though, and try to limit my practice and qualification to jacketed ammunition as much as possible.;)

Now, if only S&W would decide to make a 642 with a Scandium frame, still using a stainless steel cylinder.:) Or even a 442 with a Scandium frame and a carbon steel cylinder, and I'd try to be a bit less lazy.;)

If I ever decide to buy a Magnum-rated J-frame my current thoughts are that it would be a steel-framed model, for the extra weight, and the hopeful controllability advantage it might offer me. If nothing else, at least it might not feel like I was trying to stop a boulder, the size of VW, as it rolled by me by swatting it with an aluminum baseball bat. :neener:
 
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