Which AR?

[MattBeck]

Hey all, couple questions to run by all the AR fans and owners here.

I'm considering an AR-15 as my next major firearm purchase, and would like a little advice.

First, understand I'm on a fairly limited budget here (student, minimal cash to spend, would like to spend less that 1,000).

Now - First question, is it wiser for me to buy a prebuilt AR or to 'built my own? (Was considering a Del-Ton rifle kit, and then finding some kind of lower (advice on the lower would be great too).

If i go with building my own, how much gunsmithing ability do I really need (assuming I go with the Del-ton kit), and how bad can I mess up this 600-700 dollar investment ?.

Now, if I were to go prebuilt AR, which company should i go with? Bushmaster seems to produce a nice A3 design (i'm planning to go with a full size, and like the 'traditional' ar look, but also like the removeable carry handle for optics down the road), and Bushmaster seems to be one of the better respected producers of AR's, i just find the 700-900 price tag on the Bushmasters to be strange (compared to many AR's i've seen).

Also, with a prebuilt, is there are aftermarket stuff that i would really need to do to a 'standard' Bushmaster AR? I'd prefer not to fiddle with aftermarket parts if possible (and i'm not really looking for a super-match grade bench gun, mostly a fun gun, range and farm use, and to hang out with my AK for potential SHTF use).

Any opinions and advice would be great, and if you have some other excellent idea, throw it out there .

 

[MatthewVanitas]

One possible cost-saving strategy:

You can order an upper from one source, and a complete lower from another source.

For example:

Bushmaster 20" Pre-Ban A3 National Match upper w/ handle = $635

Stag Arms complete lower w/stock = $199 (Stag has a great rep, you can run a search on the THR search engine for reviews)

Total: $835 (buying it whole from BM would be $1035 MSRP)


Also note: www.eaglefirearms.net is running a sale on Rock River Arms rifles this week (while supplies last) This rifle goes for $759 w/ carrying handle included:

You can also run a THR search to find info on RRA rifles. Welcome aboard!

-MV

 

[wdlsguy]

I built a Del-Ton kit on a Stag Arms stripped lower, following these directions.

The only part that gave me any difficulty was the pivot pin assembly. I might invest in a pivot pin installation tool if I build another one.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I have two Bushmasters and have been VERY pleased with them. 100% with ZERO modifications. They'll work just fine out of the box.

FWIW, shop around for a good used one. I bought my second Bushmaster very lightly used for only $600.

 

[waterhouse]

check the EE at ar15.com, there are always some good deals on some complete uppers over there. I like the stripped stag lowers, since they are cheap and they work. If you have time to shop around for good deals, you can build/buy used for around $600.

good luck, they are fun guns

 

[MatthewVanitas]

IRT building a lower: folks say that installing the parts kit on a stripped lower is a really easy process. However, since even a "good deal" on a parts kit and stripped Stag lower is going to run you $135, I'd rather save the hassle and spring for a complete Stag lower for $145.

If I were installing a lot of high-end parts, I could see starting on a stripped lower, but for just a normal rifle I'll spend the extra $10 to let an expert assemble it for me. And plenty of folks have paid more than $145 for the privilege of rolling their own with bare-bones components.

Unless you feel tinkery, I'd get a decent upper and a decent complete lower separately (no skill needed for assembly, takes two seconds), or else shop for a used as PW said. Wade's in Seattle has a CAR-15 type Bushy (A1 upper!) for $600-some last week. That's about the best I've seen on a used Bushy. Come to think of it, it was a used Bushy upper on a new RRA lower...

-MV

 

[plateshooter]

I have a bunch of ARs. Several in 223, a 22rimfire, 762X39, and a 9mm. They are using lower receivers from Armalite, DPMS, PWA, Rock River, and Olympic. Two were purchased as factory complete rifles, the others are ones that I put together from parts. From MY experience, there is no difference between any of them. They all function correctly and reliably. All are much more accurate than I can shoot them. If your on a budget, and have some mechanical abilities, I would suggest building from a kit and spend the extra bucks on mags and ammo.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

plateshooter: out of curiousity, how much are you saving by building your own, vs. a complete Stag at $145?

I'm totally open to the idea of building up a lower, but the only folks I've seen that really saved money on it had C&R licenses (Brownell's discount), bought used stripped lowers, or pulled some other clever tricks. And even many of those folks only saved a couple bucks. Am I completely missing something here, which makes building from stripped far more economical?

 

[dolanp]

No reason not to get the complete lower if the price is right, unless you want the experience of assembling it.

 

[Correia]

My next group buy is going to be on Rock River ARs. Prices should be pretty darn good.

 

[Chris Rhines]

The best stock-type ARs I've ever seen are the ones from CMMG.

www.cmmginc.com

Quality is better than anything else out there, save for the full-custom guns from JP, Clark, MSTN, etc., and the prices are quite reasonable. You should be able to easily put together a complete AR for under $1000.

Agreed on buying the upper and lower seperately. You save having to pay the FET that way.

Another small tip - drop the extra $125 and get the JP trigger upgrade. Once you've shot a good single-stage match trigger like the JP, you'll never want to go back to the issue stuff.

- Chris

 

[MechAg94]

My Armalite is basically the same as the RRA pictured above except it has a detachable front sight w/rail. RRA's seem to have developed a good reputation though.

If you are not looking for a home build project, Armalite or RRA should fit your needs. Just plan on what you will want for optics and spend the rest on mags and ammo.

http://www.eaglefirearms.net/ar15_magazines.htm
Eagle Firearms has good prices on quality magazines as well. The D&H Industries mags are what work well in my armalite. I have one of the NHMTG mags, but I had to file the sharp edge on the feed lips just a little to get it to feed reliably.

 

[MattBeck]

Taking a look at CMMG's website (which i've swung by before for info on their MG shoots, planning to take a trip out this spring (in state, hooah!)), it seems that with the CMMG 20" A3 HBAR (DPMS built) upper, and a CMMG lower with internals and an A2 buttstock, this would total, before taxes, at about 700 dollars (265 for the lower, 435 for the upper). The other bonus is that I can save on shipping, FFL fees, etc by buying face to face (they're about 3 hours away, but in state). The other option is, of course, to find a Stag Arms complete lower, if I can find one in the 200 range (though it doesn't save a whole lot).

Between those two items, is there anything else i'll need to have, besides the obvious (mags, any optics I may want, etc)? Also, with this setup, will I have a reasonably accurate, reliable rifle?

My other question, how would this compare (in estimation) to a new, Bushmaster A3 http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Bushmaster_Rifles.html As you can see, they seem to be pretty inexpensive, though I haven't seen one in a local store or at a gunshow at these prices)?

Also, the term "chrome moly" when talking about a barrel - I assume this refers to chrome lining (I'm just an idiot who wants to be sure ).

Thanks for the info so far guys! Keep it coming!

 

[lycanthrope]

Complete Stag lower from www.eaglefirearms.net is about $200.

Complete Clark Gator upper is about $879 if you don't pay the $40 to be a USPSA member and if you do it's $779. So for $1020 you can have a .5 MOA guaranteed gun.

You should never have to pay over that for a decent AR.

For an all around great AR for the price get a Stag lower and an A4 RRA upper (since the Stag lowers are made from the same foundry as the RRa lowers and match). Get a flat top. Add irons as you like, but most everyone gets an optic eventually.

 

[MattBeck]

Are the RRA Uppers pretty solid, accurate, chrome lined etc? Also, do they have a 5.56 or a .223 chamber (definately looking for a 5.56 chamber)?

 

[lycanthrope]

They are solid. You can shoot 5.56 or .223. The catalog lists them as .5.56/.223 but others have said the chamber is .223 Wylde which can also shoot 5.56/.223 but is a bit tighter than standard 5.56 chamber. Chrome lining can be had for about $40 more, but it will degrade accuracy to a very small degree if that matters to you.

There are a lot of RRA gun in Service Rifle (the couple I've shot have been great) so accuracy is just fine.

 

[peanut71]

I'm in the same build it or buy it situation

If you check out Eagle Firearms at www.eaglefirearms.net, it looks like you could buy a complete RRA lower and complete upper for under $700 total. I've heard nothing but good things about Rock River and I think that's the way I'm going to go.

 

[MattBeck]

So - do Rock River Arms Chrome line their barrels? (Once again, I assume 'Chrome Moly' refers to chrome lining, but would like a for sure, definately want my AR chrome lined)

 

[GunnySkox]

So - do Rock River Arms Chrome line their barrels? (Once again, I assume 'Chrome Moly' refers to chrome lining, but would like a for sure, definately want my AR chrome lined)

Chrome-moly refers to a kind of steel with chromium and molybdenum added to it. I don't know what that means, realistically, but it's different from chrome lining.

My brother's RRA has a chromoly barrel (IIRC) and it shoots great; chrome lining's real purpose is to make cleaning easier by making it tougher for fouling to cling to the interior of the barrel, but the difference isn't tremendous, AFAIT.

~GnSx

 

[mrmeval]

I bought a stripped Rock River lower for about 110, internal parts 45, butstock, tube, buffer, spring and grip for 45.

Upper with national match chrome bolt carrier/chrome bolt and generic charging handle was I think 435. It's at 635 now. Oh, got a deal on two 30 rnd colt mags for 8 each, bought two and wish I'd bought more.

So that's 651.00

The upper was a steal, may not be able to get that now. I've seen that upper go for 620. I do love the Indy 1500 Gun & Knife show.

I'll eventually get a bipod and scope for it. With the bipod and scope I'll be at around 1200. I need the optics, you may want fixed sites. While YMMV I can buy a lot of ammo and magazines for the difference between the premade price and my built price.

plateshooter: out of curiousity, how much are you saving by building your own, vs. a complete Stag at $145?

I'm totally open to the idea of building up a lower, but the only folks I've seen that really saved money on it had C&R licenses (Brownell's discount), bought used stripped lowers, or pulled some other clever tricks. And even many of those folks only saved a couple bucks. Am I completely missing something here, which makes building from stripped far more economical?

 

[mrmeval]

My RRA lower was damn tight on the tolerances. Every thing fit and worked well with NO slop or play at all. I'm sure it will work in a bit but I was very impressed with the tolerances.

If you check out Eagle Firearms at www.eaglefirearms.net, it looks like you could buy a complete RRA lower and complete upper for under $700 total. I've heard nothing but good things about Rock River and I think that's the way I'm going to go.

 

[mrmeval]

4140 is tough a lot of gun barrels are made out of it. It's good tough steel and does have some corrosion resistance over standard carbon steels but not even close to a chrome lining or stainless steel.

http://www.suppliersonline.com/research/property/metals/25.asp

You may consider a stainless steel barrel. I love the reduced maintainance, the higher hardness and wear resistance.
http://www.gunsandammomag.com/techside/crown_120804/

QUOTE=MattBeck]So - do Rock River Arms Chrome line their barrels? (Once again, I assume 'Chrome Moly' refers to chrome lining, but would like a for sure, definately want my AR chrome lined)[/QUOTE]

 

[plateshooter]

plateshooter: out of curiousity, how much are you saving by building your own, vs. a complete Stag at $145?

I'm totally open to the idea of building up a lower, but the only folks I've seen that really saved money on it had C&R licenses (Brownell's discount), bought used stripped lowers, or pulled some other clever tricks. And even many of those folks only saved a couple bucks. Am I completely missing something here, which makes building from stripped far more economical?

Matthew, I would definately buy a pre assembled lower assembly if it can be purchased at the same price as the parts or just a bit more. I haven't priced any kits lately, but I used to be able to get them for $400.00 at the gunshows in my area a few years ago. Lowers were $99.00, so I was putting an AR together for $500.00. I paid $850.00 for my Armalite A4 around that time so I was saving some decent bucks building my own. BTW the C&R license is the best 30 bucks you will ever spend if you do much shooting or gun tinkering. I ususally save that much on every order from Brownell's or Midway.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

You can get a slightly used Colt for under $1,000. I bought a barely used Colt AR6721 for $900 OTD the day after the AWB died and it's an outstanding rifle.

Based on what I've read by several instructors who see thousands of rounds go downrange from hundreds of rifles in carbine classes, Colts are the most trouble-free out of the box. Note that this is NOT to say that Bushmasters, ArmaLites, RRAs, etc. are bad rifles. Just that Colt's quality control seems to be better than other manufacturers.

(Dons flame suit. )

 

[Chris Rhines]

Matt,

I can't speak to the quality of the DPMS-built uppers that CMMG offers. If it were me, I'd pay a bit extra and get the CMMG-built upper (assuming they offer one in the configuration you want, and I'm sure they do.)

Quality-wise, CMMG is way over Bushmaster.

- Chris