Which Cowboy Rifle & Caliber

[red rick]

Thanks Driftwood .

 

[Slamfire]

Just for fun, the very earliest 45 Colt cartridges were copper cased. Not brass. The copper was softer than brass, so they probably expanded just fine to seal a revolver chamber. No 45 Colt rifles yet, remember?

Wow!. I had no recollection. Copper cases, that tells you the pressures of a blackpowder cartridge are low. You know, even if period cases were the same neck/sidewall thickness as today's cases, period cases could have been softer. They could have played around with the brass alloy, or, annealed the cases to make the upper part of the case softer. Or not!. Whatever they did, it worked.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Wow!. I had no recollection. Copper cases, that tells you the pressures of a blackpowder cartridge are low. You know, even if period cases were the same neck/sidewall thickness as today's cases, period cases could have been softer. They could have played around with the brass alloy, or, annealed the cases to make the upper part of the case softer. Or not!. Whatever they did, it worked.

No, copper is softer than brass. That tells you the copper cased ammo would expand to seal the chamber better than brass cases would. But we are talking about cases for rifles, and as we have already said, rifles were never chambered for 45 Colt in the 19th Century. The 1860 Henry Rimfire cartridge was copper cased, so it would have expanded pretty well to seal a chamber. 44-40 was always Boxer primed in brass cases, even back in the balloon head era. One early rifle cartridge that was copper cased and Benet primed was 45-70. There were reports of cases getting stuck, and extractors ripping through the soft copper rims in the early Trap Doors.





No, I don't believe a cartridge manufacturer would go through the bother of just annealing the top half of a cartridge to keep it softer. However it is a well known trick with 45 Colt too only resize the top half of the case, so the rear half remains expanded, to better seal a chamber.

Regarding messing with the alloy, I'm pretty sure 70% copper/30% zinc was settled on pretty early for cartridge brass. Mostly because it will spring back after expanding, and because it takes cold working well. Part of the problem with those copper cased 45-70s was the copper did not spring back, so it was easy for them to get stuck in the chamber.

 

[Tommygunn]

..... There were reports of cases getting stuck, and extractors ripping through the soft copper rims in the early Trap Doors........

Yes ...on June 25th, 1876 Bvt. Major General George A. Custer's 7th Cavalry was defeated at the Little Bighorn, his men suffered cartridge jams in their Trapdoor due to fouling, hot barrels, and the soft copper cartridge cases they were issued. They had to use knives to pry out the cases .... or resort to using their revolvers.

 

[CraigC]

I also don't think it's that big a deal to reload the .44-40 but then again, I've only used Starline brass for the two bigger WCF's. I love the .32-20 and .38-40 so to me, this is something one might do just because they have a 'thing' for the cartridges.

Don't worry about being "puffed in the face." A good, standard load for the .45 Colt from any reloading manual will be perfectly safe.

Not in my experience. Rifles chambered in .45Colt are notorious for having oversized chambers and tat is evident even shooting full pressure (14,000psi) loads. I had to go up in pressure to get a good seal.

 

[SwampWolf]

It looks like the carbine would be easier to shoulder than the crescent buttplate of the rifle . What is your opinion on the different buttplates ?

I don't deny that "shotgun" butt styles are more practical in many ways but I don't think there's anything more pretty or "traditional" looking than a crescent-shaped butt on a lever-action Winchester/Marlin carbine/rifle.

 

[trickshot]

Thanks Driftwood , sorry . It looks like the carbine would be easier to shoulder than the crescent buttplate of the rifle . What is your opinion on the different buttplates ? Is one typically more accurate than the other ? I was just wondering if the barrel ban affect the accuracy of the carbine . I wanted to go with the 44/40 short rifle , but Winchester doesn't offer it in that caliber , they do offer it in the carbine , but I don't really like the saddle ring and barrel band .

If you want a short fast handling rifle; that's what the carbine was made for.

I don't think the model 73 carbine has a saddle ring like the model 92 does, but you can call the dealer and ask them.

I have bought a model 66 carbine and a model 73 deluxe sporting rifle from Dixie Gun Works, and the fit and finish on both rifles is superb. A local FFL dealer and I compared my 1866 carbine to an original that he has, and they are identical in every way except for the color of the wood, the cartridge it was chambered for, and the writing on the barrel.

 

[Tommygunn]

...I don't think the model 73 carbine has a saddle ring like the model 92 does, but you can call the dealer and ask them.......

My Uberti made Winchester 1873 has a saddle ring; my other levers don't, except for my Rossi Ranch hand which I confess is somewhat of a dumb ...pistol, actually.
With 1873s it may be an individual thing.....I guess.

 

[red rick]

I think I have made up my mine , Winchester carbine 44/40 , now to find one .

 

[forward observer]

I think I have made up my mine , Winchester carbine 44/40 , now to find one .

If you are willing to wait until they hit the market place, Browning/Winchester will be offering the 1873 in a standard saddle ring carbine style for 2018 in 38/357 mag, 45 Colt, and 44-40. It will have a saddle ring and a ladder rear sight just like the originals.




http://www.winchesterguns.com/produ...1873-current-products/model-1873-carbine.html

If you click on black bar of the item selector, you will see the calibers offered.

Previously they only offered short rifles and sporting rifles with the crescent butt plate although they did a small special run of carbines in trapper barrel length last year. Those are hard to find and pricey.

The MSRP will be $1300, but usually after they hit the market, the street prices will be lower through places like Bud's, Grab a gun, Gunbroker.com,etc. Still, that's not much more than you will pay for a Uberti and in some cases about the same. Uberti MSRP is $1170. However, if you have to buy through Cimarron you are back to $1300 MSRP unless you find a better street price.

The advantage to the Miroku produced Winnie is that it will have real American black walnut wood instead of European Walnut, and it will bear the Winchester name. It will come slightly short stroked, which is mostly aimed at the CAS crowd, but that just means it will be a bit slicker than the non modified Uberti.

Miroku is only offering it with a blued receiver, but in looking at the Uberti site, theirs seem to only come with blued receivers also

In addition, notice that the front sight on the Miroku reproduction is mounted on the barrel just behind the front barrel band. This band is called the type II. This is the way the majority of original Winchester 73 carbines were made.

Uberti on the other hand uses a front barrel band with an integral sight machined into it--called the type I, which was a hold over from the model 66. Less than 10% of the original model 73 carbines would have used this sight before it was permanently eliminated on both models in favor of the type II band and separate sight. I'm sure the type I setup reduces the overall production costs for Uberti, so that's why they use it exclusively, but it's less historically correct--that is--if one cares about such trivia.


Also, the tang of the Miroku made model will be pre-drilled and tapped to mount a tang sight if one wants. With a Uberti, you will either have to pay to have this done or do it yourself if you have the drills, taps, and know how.

Miroku runs their lever gun models in sequential runs all through the year, so there no way to tell just when anything will hit the market place. Consequently it's always feast or famine for any particular make or model. You just have to check all the sources and stay on top of the stock.

The bottom line if you want it now, you will have better luck finding a Uberti, However, if you are willing to wait, IMHO--the Miroku made model will be an over all better choice for about the same cost.

Cheers

 

[Tommygunn]

.... In addition, notice that the front sight on the Miroku reproduction is mounted on the barrel just behind the front barrel band. This band is called the type II. This is the way the majority of original Winchester 73 carbines were made.

Uberti on the other hand uses a front barrel band with an integral sight machined into it--called the type I, which was a hold over from the model 66. Less than 10% of the original model 73 carbines would have used this sight before it was permanently eliminated on both models in favor of the type II band and separate sight. I'm sure the type I setup reduces the overall production costs for Uberti, so that's why they use it exclusively, but it's less historically correct--that is--if one cares about such trivia. ..... Cheers

I have a Uberti 1873 saddle ring I bought about 1991, which has the type II band and separate sight. I have noticed in recent years Uberti now makes them with the integral barrel band/sight, type I as you say. I always thought it was a cost saving measure, and I appreciate your explanation that less than 10 % of originals had this. I don't know when Uberti changed over to type I bands. I wouldn't mind one ....but I won't be getting rid of my 1991 version.
I have a Colt Burgess 1883 carbine by Uberti in .44-40 I bought 2 years ago with the integral B.B. @ sight but I don't know if the original Burgess carbines had this type or not ....?

 

[red rick]

That is the one that I have been looking at from Winchester , I am on the list for a call when it comes in . When I bought my 1873 revolver I looked for a Colt in .45 with a 5.5" barrel for over a year . I finally bought a Uberti Smoke Wagon Deluxe . I hope this doesn't work out like that , although I really like my Uberti .

 

[eastbank]

it did cost a little more.

 

[SwampWolf]

The bottom line if you want it now, you will have better luck finding a Uberti, However, if you are willing to wait, IMHO--the Miroku made model will be an over all better choice for about the same cost.

In my experience, nobody makes a better firearm for the money or otherwise in terms of material, finish and workmanship than Miroku.

 

[CraigC]

Can't argue with that but the Uberti rifles are also very well made.

 

[airlooped]

I love lever-action cowboy carbines/rifles. I have a number of Marlins and Winchesters. Someday I’ll get a Uberti version of the 1873.

As far as caliber, I prefer the 357 Win mag and the 44 Rem mag. Both offer tremendous ballistic versatility. Shoot 38 Special or 44 Special when you are just plinking or go with the magnums when you need more performance. Reloading these calibers is also a lot of fun. There are endless combinations of powder, powder charge, bullet style and weight.

I will never sell my Marlin 1894 stainless in 357 mag! Absolutely love it!

 

[bluzman]

Just my opinion but, if you can find one, pay the premium and get a pre-Remington Marlin 1894 chambered in .357 mag/.38 spc. It's one of handiest rifles I own. FWIW, I know that Marlin is showing the re-introduction of that model and caliber on its website but given Remington's financial woes, I'll believe it when I see it. Meanwhile, here's mine, a JM stamped 1894CS manufactured in 1996.

 

[Crowman]

I’ve had great luck with Rossi R92 carbines as my walking around long guns.

I have a 16-1/2” R92 in 38 / 357 paired up with a Ruger Match Champion and a 16-1/2” R92 in 44 Mag paired up with a S&W Model 69. I put leather lever wraps on both of them and replaced their rear barrel sights with Skinner barrel mounted ghost rings.

 

[red rick]

I have a 1977 336c , that was my first rifle , but I never thought that Marlins handled as good as a Winchester . My mom gave my brother and I each one for Christmas . My Browning A5 that was my dad's and my 336c would be the last two guns to go , if I came on hard times .

 

[forward observer]

Can't argue with that but the Uberti rifles are also very well made.

I agree and I wasn't trying to sleight the Uberti. They generally make fine products and their 1873 repro's are no exception. Also, generally one can find a better selection of the Uberti's at any one time and many times at a better street price.

In fact, I prefer the Uberti 1873 octagon barreled sporting rifle to the the Miroku version of the same rifle. Pound for pound, I think the Uberti is a more accurate copy of an original sporting rifle than the Miroku is---barring the type of walnut, which can be fixed with a little refinish and staining know how. I happen to own an example of the 24 inch sporting rifle made by each--Uberti and Miroku plus an original Winchester made in 1891, so I have all three to easily compare.

However, for the carbine model being discussed, I think the Miroku may be the better choice--if and of course that may be a big if---you can snag one in the same price range as the Uberti.

Cheers

 

[CraigC]

I have a few Miroku Brownings and Winchesters and they are beautifully made guns but something about their 1873 just seems odd to me. Although I think Navy Arms deluxe versions are spectacular. I guess I'm just weird.